Would a grade 4 merit be considered as higher than a grade 5 pass in violin?

I ask for your opinions on this, because a certain school offering music scholarships has grade 4 merit as their minimum standard and looked down on a grade 5 pass, inferring that a pass at grade 5 does not meet the grade 4 merit criteria.

I am interested in what other people think.

This school is talking rubbish. Grade 5 is a higher level than grade 4 whether it is pass, merit or distinction.

I have to TOTALLY AGREE with violin Hero, I'd appeal! and get a violin teacher to back up the appeal, and maybe even call the ABRSM and ask if anyone would be willing to give their statement on it! I'd be furious actually!

If you look here, you'll see the UCAS tarrif for points gained for grades 6, 7 and 8.

You'll see that a (practical) G6 merit carries the same number of points as a G7 pass. In turn, a G7 merit carries the same points as a G8 pass.

I know you are talking about G4 and G5 comparisons, but I think this provides objective evidence from an external agency that GX merit and GX+1 pass could be considered the same from a 'points' standpoint.

Opinions of different people, institutions, agencies may differ; but I just had to chip in because I like having numbers where you can go 'look, that equals that, so ner!'

THAT is VERY useful and one more proof that this school is wrong to 'penalise' someone for having a grade 5 pass instead of grade 4 merit

Just because UCAS gives the same number of points for a merit at grade n as for as pass at grade n+1 does NOT mean they are equivalent.

I concede that it is far from certain that someone with a pass at grade 5 would earn a merit at Grade 4. But equally, Grade 5 is a higher level than grade 4, and it is far from certain that someone with a merit at Grade 4 would pass Grade 5.

From personal experience, many many (many, many, many!!) years ago I held a distinction at grade 5 piano, but I FAILED grade 6 at the first attempt.

So not only is the school talking rubbish. So is UCAS. They are trying to rank different things on the same scale.

Yes, but if you can use one sort of rubbish to persuade other people to modify their form of rubbish, it has a use

I think you're all wrong. Someone with a very good mark at grade 4 is very likely to be a better player, with more potential, than someone who has scraped a pass at grade 5.

I agree!

well, if we have to talk about certainty or uncertainty then I would even dispute that discopants, maybe the two people entered for the grade examination in a different way?
ie: if I wait until I am a good grade 5 standard (according to my teacher) to enter for grade 4 then I have a better chance of getting a grade 4 distinction, however if I am counselled inaccurately by my teacher or I was too keen to enter grade 4 and applied when I was merely at the standard of grade 4 then I'll get a pass (or fail) so, it could also be that the person with a grade 5 pass entered too soon/too 'keenly' for their grade 5 and the person with grade 4 distinction could have passed grade 5 but entered for grade 4 as they like 'less stress' and taking things more slowly?

like all things in life there are MANY sides to the story, but I still think the school is wrong in its decision to look at a grade 5 pass 'badly' compared to a 4 merit, unless maybe they looked at this person's 'story' from many different angles and taking many things into account (but I doubt they do that?)

Does the young person in question have Grade IV? If so, and that's merit or better, use that instead.

I think they are just saying that the person should be capable of getting a merit or preferably a distinction for their exams, but are accepting that not everyone will have been playing for long enough to have reached grade 5 level. Someone who has been playing 5 years and has a pass at grade 5 is likely to be less musical than someone who has been playing for 2 years and has a merit at grade4. The bigger picture needs to be taken into account, because clearly someone who got a pass at grade 5 after only a couple of years would show more promise than someone who took 5 years to reach grade 4 and scraped a merit.

Do they ask for any background info at all?

Schools offering music scholarships usually ask for a reference from the music teacher(s) and call candidates for audition.

You are just repeating a common prejudice - that the person who picks up new skills quickly has the capacity to go further than someone who is initially slower on the uptake.

The truth is we just don't know which can eventually go furthest - there are far too many complicating factors.

If it seems that way it is at least partly because it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The slow-starter is discouraged and told they are "less musical". The person that got off to a flying start is encouraged and told that they have more "talent" and are more "promising"

this is also very true

life is not that simple is it?

Mad Tom : obviously it doesn't apply in every case. I was just trying to say that the grade in itself didn't tell very much and that a report from the teacher and hearing the person play were probably more important factors.

True, but we don't know if we are comparing a 119 pass at grade 5 with a 120 merti at grade 4; or a 100 pass at g5 with a 129 pass at g4. Circumstances will dictate, it will be an individual decision. Which is why perhaps the UCAS point thingy isn't a particularly good at showing this, because it equalises these two very different situations.

Personally, I think that if this question is related to a music scholarship, then the standard was probably given as a guideline for applicants rather than a written rule. Anyway, I'm fairly confident that no decision would be made before they have heard the student play and have had an interview with them. From my own experience (at my 13+ audition), the head of music told me that he had a glance at my form but he wanted to hear me play to him before he could make his mind up because he felt that figures and numbers and exam passes were totally meaningless to him. While this is unlikely to be a common viewpoint, I think it's a valid one I auditioned for music scholarships at 3 top independents, and I chose to go to the school where the head of music saw that music is so much more than exam passes.

Many thanks for all of your replies, I just wanted to check that I was not being too sensitive or that the member of the school music department was being too disimissive.

Maizie, I found the UCAS tarrif points link useful, thank you.

Listener, the young person (10 years old) has a pass at grade IV and grade V, where he has done very well in some areas and less well in others. However, my question is more about the principle of the matter.

Andante, yes the school does ask for other information and calls for an audition.

FluteDiva!, my concern is that the attitude reflects a rather blinkered view that in turn would influence the judgements that might be made; especially when other schools say that they are looking for potential.

Anyway, I feel better now that I have got this off my chest and read all of your replies.

It's rather bizarre to use the UCAS points thing because at the end of the day an A in chemistry is worth the same as an A in music, but only one is going to help you prove your standard in music.

If it's that big a deal maybe the person should go back and retake their grade 4. Sometimes it's easier to jump through the hoops than try to break out of them. I got a pass in grade 3, a merit in 4 a pass in 7 and a distinction in 8 - what sort of "potential" does that mean I have?

But if I went to take my grade 4 today I would like to hope I'd get a distinction, so an awful lot does depend on whether someone has skipped to the best grade they can possibly enter or has stayed within their comfort zone. Other factors are a big influence also. For grade 3 I got one practice with the piano part, and that was in the school toilet with a bloke with a keyboard, who was not the person who was due to play the piano for me in the exam room, and took place about 3 minutes before the exam started. Until that point I had had no idea I was to play with a piano. In both grade 3 and grade 4 I was criticised for my scales not being rhythmic - at no point had the teacher shown me the scales books or explained to me that they were actually meant to be in crotchets and quavers, I just knew I had to make the correct notes in sequential order. Can you blame a 9-year-old candidate for having a bad teacher?

I got a pass at grade 4 and a merit at grade 6

I think to have grade 5 at 10 years old is excellent! They are obviously doing very well! Perhaps the grade 4 merit is given as a guideline due to age - it is simply unrealistic to expect a 10 year old to have stacks of exam results, because some children may have only been playing a year or two. You are right in thinking that the schools look at potential...and the other thing to remember is that you can audition for scholarships for year 7 and year 9 entry. I would personally give it a go because you'll always wonder if they could have won a scholarship otherwise. Good luck!

Many educational establishments do have strange "rules" when it comes to examinations and entrance criteria --- i'm not just meaning for music education---- will not go into details !! But, perhaps it is just a case of, "they" want to see that the "student" is capable of passing exams at merrit level, rather than just scaping through???, regardless of grade. I think that grade 5 is harder than grade 4. But, i suppose, which would you rather have in your school of music, a student with grade 4 merrit or grade 5 pass ???? At the same time i do not believe, that someone with a grade 4 merrit would be more musical or have more potential than the other. Also some people are just no good at exams. What about a student who gets grade 3 distinction and one who gets a pass at grade 5 ------ what would they do then????