My solfege teacher is a cellist and a number of the exercises she sets me are taken from the cello tutor book she uses when teaching cello. Although I'm not learning cello and know nothing about it, I've been really struck by the bits I've seen of this book (Le jeune violoncelliste by Feuillard).

It's structured so that in each section, there is a scale to learn or some technical exercises to practise, then maybe an etude, but each section culminates in a little piece. The latter incorporate the scales/techinical exercises, so you are practising those in context, but (and this is from my perspective the crucial point) the piece is always by a major composer: Bach, Chopin, Schumann, for example. No doubt these are simplified and/or transcribed, but the point is that the student is rewarded for doing the technical work by being able to learn something resembling a real piece of music by a real composer, rather than a nursery rhyme or some ditty made up by an instrumental teacher whose works would never be played but for the fact they're being foisted off on beginning students in tutor books. (The teacher's perspective is a little different: she said the good thing about the pieces was that students had to show they could do the technical work in the context of a piece of music, rather than merely in an exercise. In this case, though, the teacher's perspective -hers- and the student's perspective - mine - are compatible: in either case, the technical work builds toward a substantive piece, whether you view this as testing or rewarding.)

I'm not a music teacher, but this structure seems so logical, and as an adult I really, really appreciate the fact that the student is not asked to spend time on negligible music and isn't asked to work at technical exercises as if these were an end in themselves, but is instead shown, very clearly, that you labour at these so as to be able play real music. Maybe this is not the approach that would work best for children, but not every learner is a small child with a small child's musical tastes.

I searched to see if this cello book was part of some series, but it appears it's just for cello. How I wish there were comparable materials for other instruments! Does the description I've given ring any bells? And why doesn't some enterprising person produce equivalents for other instruments, given the number of adult learners there are in the world these days?

It does not exactly match your description, but if you are interested in a piano series, have a look at the Europaeische Klavierschule, European School of Piano Playing by Fritz Emonts, esp. the 2nd and 3rd books.
The 2nd book is about Grade 1-2 level, the third is like Grade 3-4.
I only have the 3rd for my own pleasure, but my teacher uses the first 2. There is a CD included.
One subject is introduced, like Triads, Thirds Sixths, Pedalling, Scales with 3#, or an artistic subject like lyrical playing, letting one voice come out etc. There are some exercises, the theory is explained, and then there are real pieces, as well as European folk songs and Emonts' own pieces, and it has also an improvisation section on the yellow pages. The book is in 4 or 5 languages, German, English and a few more.
You may like it.

I think this points out the most important part of any materials and that is their innovative, individualised and appropriate use by someone who has thought about it with a particular student in mind. It doesn't matter to your teacher that this material is for an instrument you are not learning, she has seen the material and realised it's a good fit for her student. Personally I am quite keen on folk music, and really don't mind working through kids' tunes and such. I really quite detest simplified arrangements of things - if I want to play Chopin it's because I want to play Chopin as Chopin wrote, not because I want to make a Chopin-esque noise in a way that strips the guts out of the complexity that made it what it is. It's good that there is so much more material to choose from to try to make a good fit for each person, though it is a shame that most of the time this involves owning a huge range of different (expensive) stuff or else working through a limited selection of stuff as it appears in a particular tutor book just because it's cheapest that way.

That's good to know about, thank you, Prins. The first book gets mixed reviews on Amazon.de: some adults like it, but at least one person complained bitterly about what I take are rather cartoonish pictures which the reviewer thought distracted from the musical point being made and found the whole thing rather childish. I would guess the discrepancy between your impression and that of the reviewer may come down to the fact that you're familiar with a higher-level book in the series.

What interests me about Le jeune violoncelliste is that though the title suggests it might be intended for children, it's very serious and rigorous: no cartoons, smiley-faces or jingles. Perhaps that makes it harder for children to relate to, but perhaps it instils in them a love of classical music from the beginning.

Well, the first 2 books have pictures, and these make the books look easy, but they are not!
The pictures are a bit deceiving (I like them though!). Half way book 2 my teacher says that the children (10 and older) are complaining that it is too hard, and he also thinks it is a little too fast moving, so he is supplementing a lot.
The Dutch EPTA has also made a review ( by teaching it and making a report afterwards) of the Emonts books, and I translate parts of the summary:
Target group: Intelligent students, not too young (8 or 9) and adults who love creativity. The independence of the hands and polophony require some perseverence of the student. The difficulty increases quickly and is not recommended for every student.
Music: High quality. Song material from European countries (also to create own accompaniments), exercices, recital pieces and quatre-mains. Emphasis on classical music and polyphonic music (also 20th century). Level at completion of book 3: Kloppenburg Trap 5 (equivalent of grade 5-6, Bartok Evening in the country, Schumann Phantasietanz, Scarlatti sonata, Chopin prelude)
Very classical approach, and as such not suitable as preparation for pop and jazz etc. although harmony and chords are taught thoroughly. The material in the yellow parts can be taught by ear. Can be used to introduce improvisation (classical).



Are you familiar with the Jon George curriculum (Artistry at the Piano)? that is a very classical and mature approach, with no pictures. Jon George composed all the music in the series, but in various styles, baroque, classical, romantic upto impressionist music. I am only familiar with some of the repertoire books because they are in the local library. He has died, but his wife is still teaching I believe, and this is the website: http://www.artistryalliance.net/index.html

I do not know how to order from their website because it seems that they do not ship outside the US and Canada ...

Thank you for making this available, Prins, so that those of us who don't read Dutch can benefit from hearing what teachers in the Netherlands thought. Meanwhile, I've discovered something on both the Amazon.de and Di Arezzo websites that looks as though it might be along the same lines, but for viola: Berta Volmer's Bratschenschule (Fr. ed.: Methode d'Alto). If you (or your piano teacher) knows any string teachers in the Netherlands, would you mind asking if they're familiar with this? The description on both websites is promising, but very brief.

I'm beginning to get the impression that perhaps there is a cultural divide between continental and Anglo-Saxon approaches here: it seems to be continental tutor books that take the approach I find sensible, whereas American books seem to be very similar to the British, making heavy use of made-up tunes and nursery rhymes. The book I'm having to learn from at the moment even has nauseating lyrics to go with the made-up tunes. I'm sorely temped to make up my own bawdy lyrics and write them in over the top of the moralising stuff aimed at children (and which would have infuriated me when I was a child!)

The viola books I have never heard of, and I am sure neither has my teacher, but one description says it moves very quick, is aimed at adults or (almost) adults, so that the learner can participate in ensemble music (like school orchestra) as quickly as possible.
From the description it looks very serious.

Are you learning the viola? If you cannot find anything suitable, just hang in there. Hopefully you will move into the real repertoire soon. But your teacher should be interested if you can find a method that is suited for ambitious adults, who want to play real music a.s.a.p.

As far as a continental approach is concerned, I think it is esp. the German and Russian books that are like this (fast moving and thoroughly classical). And of these too, the German will be on glossy heavy paper, expensive books, with many pictures, but not easy, and the eastern European books will be even harder and without pictures. I think this will be true for string tutor books as well.

Most Dutch piano teachers use American methods, Hal Leonard, Alfred, these are translated in Dutch. Joan Last and Walter Caroll are also used widely.
A very new Dutch piano method has only 2 books available yet, it is called Toets en Spel (Key and Game) and it is a bit in between, the style of the music is 'continental', a bit like the beginner piano pieces by German educational composers, but it is more playful and not so fast moving.

Yes, I got the same information from the descriptions I read on Amazon.de and Di Arezzo. In neither place is there however any indication of what kind of music Volmer is using.

I think the French tutor books tend to be like the German (I've never seen a Russian book, though I gather there is a Russian school of piano teaching that begins with hands together, rather than insisting everything be done with hands separately first). When my solfege teacher isn't setting exercises out of Le jeune violoncelliste, she uses a series of solfege books designed for French schoolchildren. I'm currently doing exercises out of 4A (I've no idea what age/level that corresponds to). The selections in it are from, for example, Rimsky-Korsakov, Milhaud, Vivaldi, Falla, well as the usual Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn: in other words, from the great composers of orchestral music. No folksongs or melodies invented by self-appointed composers, and no graphic distractions from the music itself (which in any case, would make the books more expensive to produce). No wonder French players have the reputation of being the best sightreaders in the orchestral world: they're trained on real orchestral music from childhood.

Actually, I think it's the English who have the reputation of being the best orchestral sight-readers.

My two daughters are currently going through the French system (one learns the cello and her French teacher never uses Le jeune violoncelliste with young beginners because she says it is not adapted. My daughter actually used a German book when she started aged seven). The solfège leaves a lot to be desired. I won't go into full details because I'm tired but it has included things like all solfège exercices being in the treble clef when daughter plays two bass clef instruments.

My experience of amateur French musicians is that they are not good sightreaders (and my oboe teacher was so impressed by my sight-reading that he wanted to know what the English secret was). The children in particular fail to make the link between what they learn in the solfège class and what they are doing with their instrument.

On orchestral sight-readers: my information comes from professional players on both sides of the Atlantic. I've never heard anyone marvel at the sight-reading of English players, so on this point we will simply have to differ.

As to the rest, you really don't appear to have read this thread. It's not concerned with the merits of French musical education or solfege, or with the education of children (such as yours) but with whether there are tutor books available which are pointed towards classical music.

However since you raise the question, I will respond briefly on the issue of the merits of solfege. I sought out a French-trained solfege teacher after having read the relevant research, of which there is a lot in academic journals concerned with music education. I was also persuaded by the fact that American conservatories routinely require solfege skills. The reason the American conservatories are significant is that, having no single dominant tradition of musical education, their choices have tended to be made on the basis of reason and research rather than we-do-it-because-this-is-what-we've-always-done-it, the attitude one finds both in Britain and on the continent. The Julliard apparently spent a long time deliberating which form of solfege to require of its students and now teaches the seven-syllable fixed-do system (i.e., what's taught in France), and imports French-trained teachers to do it.

As for the notion there's some sort of tragedy in the player of a bass clef instrument learning treble, I'm baffled. The most immediate reason to teach children to read off the treble clef is that this is where their vocal range lies. I can solfege off the bass clef, but to do it, I have pitch up an octave once I get to the middle of the clef; pitching octaves is a basic skill, so that's not a bad thing, but it does introduce an added element of complexity and I can see why someone teaching children to sing would focus on treble. If you can't read treble, moreover, you won't be able to read any vocal score, choral or operatic and if you're female, you'll never be able to sing music written for your vocal range.

But solfege is not just for vocalists; sight-singing is generally agreed to be an important basis for instrumental playing. It's not only the French who think that; it's the basis of Kodaly education as well. If you can't read treble, you won't be able to read the violin or woodwind parts of an orchestral score, the parts that most often carry the melody; you won't be able to read keyboard music; and I don't see how you could learn harmony. Fnally, if you are as enamoured of British musical education as you seem to be, note that you can't get through even a grade one theory exam without reading and writing on the treble clef.

But this is not, I repeat, a thread concerned with the merits of British vs. French musical education nor the education of children--it's in the _Adult_ Learners section and is concerned with what materials are available that are based on classical music. If you are one of those people who prefers nursery rhymes, folk songs, and music especially written for learners by music teachers, then you have a lot of choices available. I was trying to discover whether forum members knew of other kinds of materials.

Sorry if I am mistaken but I thought your reply to kerioboe's post was rather hard. If you are discussing French tutor books and methods or asking for information on them it is natural to expect that teachers or players who have had experience of these things will present an opinion. I am quite sure that kerioboe will have read the thread before replying and I am sure she doesn't need any lessons on the value of being able to read the treble clef.

After 20 years of teaching both class and instrumental music to a large number of French children and a small number of French adults I am with kerioboe in what she says. The point is that if you want to develop fluid sight reading you need to do it hands on your instrument and not in the kind of solfege classes French children dislike and all the French adults I have taught refuse to attend - that is my experience. It may not, of course be yours.

But as you say, you did not intend to open a discussion on the merits and demerits of various national systems of musical education. However, the Adult Learner's part of the forum is bound to attract the views of those interested in various methods. The sections are not water tight and that is one of the reasons why the discussions here are often very fruitful.

If I could help with suggesting any French piano methods for adults I would but I have yet to come across anything that has suited either my pupils or myself. That does not, of course, mean that there are none but I notice that other posters have also pointed you in other directions. In the end you just have to find what works for you and your teacher.

I find this a rather unjustified remark. I had read the thread and what I was taking issue with was your sweeping statement

An opinion, as far as I can tell, that has been formed from having seen two French books.

To stay on topic, I would like to make the following remarks.
1) I think that the date when the book was published, rather than the country in which it was published is important. Le jeune violoncellist was first published in 1953, Eta Cohen's Violin method, published in 1956 is very similar - no pictures, short exercices followed by a piece of classical music.

2) Pictures are, I think, a recent invention (older teachers may be able to confirm/contradict this). Certainly my tutor books for recorder and violin didn't have pictures when I was learning in the mid 1970s. I am inclined to think that pictures cames from the States because my first piano tutor book didn't have pictures but my original teacher moved after about six months and the new teacher gave me a Shaum book which (to my surprise) did have pictures. Perhaps you should ask the older teachers to recommend books that they used when they were teaching in the 60s and 70s and then look for them second-hand.

3) That said, British tutor books which correspond to what you want do exist. Learn as you play (I have a copy for the oboe but I am assuming that it is the same with other instruments) has no pictures (apart from very sober fingering diagrammes) and each double page lesson consists of a few technical exercices followed by a couple of classical pieces to use what the student has learnt. It does have some pieces made up by the author and a couple of traditional songs in the first few lessons (ie when the pupil can only play a very limited number of notes). Once the pupil has the range of an octave there are only classical pieces.

3) It is not entirely true when you say Le jeune violoncellist has no pieces made up by the author. In fact the first seven lessons do have pieces made up by the author of the book. "Real" classical music is only introduced in lesson eight but as you said yourself, it progresses very first. By lesson eight the pupil is playing using 1st, 3rd and 4th fingers on all strings and has mastered slurred and separate bows. Lots of tutor books introduce classical pieces by the time the student knows how to do all this. The problem is what to get the student to play when they can only play open strings, or only use their first finger. I could be provocative and argue that by the time you have got to this stage, if you have a teacher you no longer need a tutor book. You could be playing "real" music all the time with your teacher finding the necessary technical exercices from a separate book of technical exercices or exercices the teacher makes up specfically for the pupil in connection with the piece. Certainly if you are a pianist there are collections of easy classical pieces (with no pictures) written for the piano which can be played by a pre-grade one pianist. (The first book of Denes Agay's Classical to Modern series comes to mind).

Having replied on topic, I hope you will now permit me to reply to a few points in your previous post.


This as you state it makes no sense at all. The seven-syllable fixed-do system is simply what they use to name the notes. It doesn't enable you to do anything other than name the notes (which pupils at Julliard must know how to do already as they wouldn't have got in otherwise).


I didn't say it was a tragedy, just not very useful and rather confusing. Solfege is not just about singing. One of the things they do in the solfege class is say (not sing) the note names in rhythm and then play them on their instrument. It seems to me it would make far more sense to do this in the clef that the child is using to play the instrument. Particularly since we are talking about beginners (or near beginners) since the topic is tutor books.


Solfege as the French use it is not just sight-singing it is music theory as well. Kodaly is in many ways the complete opposite of solfege since it is based on oral traditions (they learn to sing without the music) and is impossible with the fixed sol-fa system used in France.


All this is of course perfectly true but people using tutor books are not usually trying to read orchestral scores or to learn harmony. Reading the clef theoretically and playing from it are two different things. I can read the bass clef just as fluently as the treble clef when playing the piano but am not very fluent at sight-reading music written in the bass clef on the oboe.


I didn't say I was enamoured of British musical education. Having experienced musical education in two countries I think both have their advantages and disadvantages. I was (as I said at the beginning of this post) merely trying to point out that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.

[quote name='kerioboe' date='Nov 3 2009, 10:07 PM' post='891525']
[quote name='Dumbarton Oaklet' post='891204' date='Nov 3 2009, 09:11 AM']
[quote]
The Julliard apparently spent a long time deliberating which form of solfege to require of its students and now teaches the seven-syllable fixed-do system (i.e., what's taught in France), and imports French-trained teachers to do it.
[/quote]
This as you state it makes no sense at all. The seven-syllable fixed-do system is simply what they use to name the notes. It doesn't enable you to do anything other than name the notes (which pupils at Julliard must know how to do already as they wouldn't have got in otherwise).
[/quote]

Most of your post is, once again, irrelevant to the subject at hand, which I made quite clear in the last sentence of my response: not whether you like a certain approach, or whether a particular instance of it is what you and your children's teacher prefer, but whether there are other similar tutor books.

There is, however, one glaring error of fact in your response which needs to be corrected: the statement in the quotation above.

Seven-syllable fixed-do solfege is not simply an alternative method of note-naming. Perhaps that's what your daughters are learning, but it is not what is meant by fixed-do solfege. If you think it's senseless that the Julliard would bother to teach this, it's because you don't understand what it entails. (And the Julliard is by no means the only American conservatory that teaches fixed-do.)

I do not intend to read further responses from you on this topic: you won't attend to the issue at hand and you seem disinclined to inform yourself of basic facts.

I think it's pointless to argue over fixed do versus moveable do. Both systems work, otherwise France and England would not both produce excellent musicians - which they do.

Having learnt music in France as a child, I used fixed do (so the emphasis was very much on the development of a kind of perfect pitch) - this had an advantage as it helped us to familiarise ourselves with the sounds of what we were seeing at the pitch they were written at. The downside is that it encourages students to think, for example, that all F's are equal, which is not the case - and many French solfège students have no concept of tonal centre or altering the height of some notes dependent on the key they are in (for example, on the cello, if we make a sixth with the g string and the e above it, then the fourth from the e to the open a string will not be in tune - until students get very far along in their education in the French system, they will not stop to question this and will blindly put their fingers in the 'right' position without actually listening because 'as long as I hear an e it MUST be in tune').

The English system, which I learnt much later, and especially the concept of moveable do is very useful too - it enables students to feel the key they are in and to make sure that they are in tune with that key (rather than with some abstract fixed system which has nothing to do with anything).

In my experience, British players are generally better sight readers than French ones, although the French can sight sing better.

So, I think it's pointless to debate the merits or otherwise of a system - or indeed what is taught at Juliard (who cares? They aren't the world music authority and the fact that they choose one system does not make it superior to other ones) - the point is that, to quote a cheesy proverb 'many different roads lead to the top of the mountain, but the view is the same when you get there whichever road you take'.

To answer the question in hand, however - I think that the Jeune Violoncelliste is an excellent book (I used it myself) and I too was disappointed to see that not many other books are available in this style - there's the petit paganini for violin which is similar but - true to violin style - it's full of millions of études before you get to play any real music. It is, however, the nearest thing I've found to the Feuillard book.

I found nothing like it at all when I started viola.

I find your post equally rude. I spent some time in my previous post saying that there are indeed similar tutor books.


The Americans use solfege differently to the French. They use it as a synonym for "ear training;" the Julliard website (I have just looked) puts "ear training" after the word solfege, which removes a lot of the ambiguity. (In French solfege also covers written theory and harmony). Julliard describes their "ear training as including "Reading of treble and bass clefs using fixed Do solfège" (remarkably similar to what I said about it being a method of note naming) once you have named the notes you can, of course, use it do other things such as sight-singing but it is still, at heart, a way of naming notes.


I object strongly to being told that I do not inform myself of basic facts. And will not be replying to any more of your posts either.

Yes, it sounds a well structured book and certainly most adult learners aren't going to be too impressed by playing nursery rhymes. I haven't come across anything similar when learning viola or oboe. However, the exam syllabii of the various boards are quite valuable in suggesting a structured approach to scales, studies and pieces at each grade which a teacher will be able to group to suit children or adult students. Of course a knowledgeable teacher will also use material which isn't on the syllabus but supports it. My own view is that using an "array" of material is probably better (and is certainly more flexible) than a "one size fits all" approach of everything in one book.


I have certainly heard that English (British?) orchestras have (or had?) a very high reputation for sight reading, based on the historical fact of less rehearsal time than their European counterparts. Whether that still stands is probably open to conjecture but I do know that large parts of the "standard repertoire" are performed with virtually no rehearsal (i.e sight read). My information is also from professional players.

But then again there are all sorts of "national stereotypes" attached which when investigated rigourously don't actually stand up (I've come across a few whilst playing the oboe).

"Learn as you play" was the tutor book that sprang to my mind too from your description. I used it for learning the oboe (as an adult), and you start playing classical pieces very early on. There is also a small selection of "concert pieces" which can be performed with piano accompaniment after every few lessons as well. My woodwind teacher at the time used this series with all her adult pupils for this reason.

How rude!

I note, Dumbarton Oaklet that you are a relative newcomer to the Forums. Perhaps you do not yet understand how we conduct debates and exchange views and information in this normally polite space.

This is not a place for the high handed "I am right and you are rubbish" attitude. It is a place where musicians of all kinds, ages, experiences and abilities get together for civilised exchanges and to share different points of view.

Well said Aquarelle.