I am sure I have seen a discussion on this previously, but is there a concensus of opinion? I am teaching an adult who is ready to start on Bach and I would be interested to know on how best to advise him. He is never going to be a recitalist so he does not need to buy the most expensive version available even if it does have every last semiquaver exactly right. I am thinking of the Preludes and Fugues Book 1 plus The Little Organ Book to start with. I have Novello from about.......err 50 odd years ago!

In that case, I'd go for some of the relatively inexpensive Novello books, such as you already have.

I totally agree.

The Novello edition is sensibly laid out, has some helpful fingering and phrasing suggestions, with the notes.

Those who aspire to professional recital work might use Barenreiter or some such, but for ordinary mortals)(and quite a few professionals,) Novello does perfectly well.

Inexpensive second-hand copies in good condition are available from Roger Molyneux of Liverpool.

Barry Williams

I think in the circumstances you describe, Novello are adequate, and I have to admit that for a couple of pieces, I still do use the Novello copy.

However, I think your pupil should at least be shown what the Barenreiter looks like so that they are aware of how much editorial interference there is in the copies. I prefer the larger print of the B edition for the big works at least, modal key signatures for the minor key works, and an ABSENCE of phrasing of registration hints or suggestions. However, Peters do have something going for them in the chorale preludes in terms of layout. I bought my Bar volumes nearly 25 years ago and I was faced with them gradually falling apart. So rather than replace (and have to re write fingers/pedals etc.) I had them all rebound in hardback and the local bookbinder has made a really good job of them.

I havn't seen the Mayhew edition, though I believe it has been popular in some circles and they were offereing quite a good deal on the whole set last time I looked.

PS Haven't seen you around here recently HG, good to see you back!

Ah, but which Novello edition? I think there may be some quite old ones knocking about out there. If your copy of the "Eight Short" is the one edited by John Dykes Bower and Walter Emery in 1952, then it is perfectly sound - Emery was a good Bach scholar. Really the only thing to dislike about it is the dynamic, registration and metronome suggestions, which are not clearly marked as editorial and thus exude a specious authority which students find difficult to disregard. Other than that, it is an urtext edition, so is mercifully free from phrasing and fingering, though there are one or two pedalling suggestions. Page turns are good (there are a couple that need a bit of practice).

The Bärenreiter Edition is more expensive (£10 from Allegro Music against £7.95 for the Novello). The editor (Alfred Dürr) is no less front rank than Emery. The notation is larger, clearer and quite beautifully clean - the urtext is rigorous. There are one or two fairly insignificant differences in the notes (e.g. due to different interpretation of accidentals), but they are of no moment. The page turns are even better than Novello: most movements fill a single opening. This is the edition I use simply because it is such a joy to play from (and because of the sensible ascription: "Formerly attributed to J. S. Bach"!)

The major practical difference between the editions is that Novello divides the music between the hands where necessary whereas Bärenreiter does not. For example, in the C major fugue, the second entry (the answer) is printed on the left-hand staff in Novello, but on the right-hand one in Bärenreiter. For the less experienced student, this is likely to make Novello the clear winner.

I am afraid I have not seen other editions of the Eight, so cannot comment on those.

Bach's autograph copy of the Orgelbüchlein survives, so there should be no differences in the readings between the different editions. The nice thing about the Novello edition is the inclusion of the harmonised chorales with translations of, usually, a couple of verses. A student of Bach's wrote that Bach had taught him always to play chorales according to the affekt of the words, so this is very helpful. Again it is a perfectly serviceable near-urtext. Bärenreiter is again very clean and well laid out (and also lists the titles that Bach never got around to composing), but for an amateur student, probably not worth the extra expense. Page turns are not always easy. The Breitkopf edition (Beckmann) is also reliable, but the page size is smaller and the printing therefore more cramped.

Thank you all for your replies - most helpful indeed. If you have a moment to spare perhaps you would contribute to my other thread asking for ideas of basic repertoire for a beginner organist.

You can get the "8 Short" here:
http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/J.S.Bach.php

Free, and no extraneous editorial additions!

I take your point about editorial and extraneous additions, but surely beginners need some help.

Are phrasing and fingering/footing best provided by the teacher or the editor?

Barry Williams

I would nrevously suggest, best provided by the teacher, assuming they have some historical awareness. Fingering, very subjective!

That subject is worth a thread of its own!

I think it depends. I am inclined towards the view that it is a teacher's job to have an expert knowledge of the music he is teaching. If he is not, he ought not to be teaching it. I also believe it is the teachers job to encourage students to think for themselves. So I prefer to discuss phrasing with the student and mark it in myself. C. H. Trevor, in his organ tutor, shows about 6 different ways of phrasing the subject of the fugue from Bach's Fantasia & Fugue in G minor - enough said!

But I have seen cases of the blind leading the blind and also of players trying to teach themselves a piece and have felt that in these cases a marked edition might have been helpful.

Horses for courses perhaps?

Couldn't have put it better!

Absolutely. Although I don't think I'd ever recommend an edition where phrasing has been added. Phrasing suggestions in the commentary yes. Fingering could be very useful, I agree, and I like the fact that Novello Editions of Bach are more helpful in splitting the manual parts between the hands.

Just had a thought: are there any editions of any early music that have suggested "early music fingerings"? I keep thinking that I ought to have delved into the subject.

Peter le Huray once edited a slim volume of English virginal music with original fingerings - and very interesting it was too. It was published by Stainer & Bell, I think, but I suspect it is long out of print. I am sure there must be other examples from other periods, but I have never delved into the subject, being rather too long in the tooth to learn such radically different techniques.

Stephen's excellent point about the split between the hands is an entirely practical one. It is always helpful to have such suggestions.

I cannot see the problem with editorial suggestions of fingering, footing and phrasing in an edition that is intended to be used below diploma level. It is, of course, axiomatic that these additions are identified as editorial, but it is unlikely that a beginner would be able to do better than Walter Emery or John Dykes Bower.

Fingering is especially important in organ work. Given that far too many people commence the organ with an inadequate keyboard skills, it is essential that regular fingering is used below diploma level so as to strengthen technique.

Beyond Grade Eight students are expected to review editions and to be able to justify the edition used in discussion with their examiners.

I am always pleased to see editorial suggestions for fingering and footing. No-one has quite decided about some of the accidentals in Bach's 'Little' Prelude and Fugue in A Major!

The erudite comments from Vox Humana about the Anne Marsden Thomas editions are worrying indeed.

Barry Williams

I had lectures from him on the subject in the 70s but thought, in my youthful arrogance, that it was a lot of rubbish. Now I wish I'd kept the sheets of examples he gave. Not that it would make any difference on the organ I play anyway. Even could I do it!

Speaking as an organist of very modest ability who struggles largely unaided, I too welcome editorial suggestions for fingering and division of hands.
Following the example and exhortations of my more skillful brethren, I have duly bought Bahrenreiter editions of things, but secretly wished they could be a little more informative.
Even the Novello editions don't exactly go overboard with helpful suggestions, unless I am looking in the wrong places.