I wonder if any other teachers have encountered a situation similar to the one in which I find myself.

The mother of a 13-year old boy I teach came to see me the other day in the morning well before her son's afteroon lesson to tell me her son never practices any more. He loves music theory, but he won't play any pieces he and I have chosen together because he is interested only in composing and will not be "dictated to" by "other composers" as to what to play (meaning the music which composers have had published in printed form for others to play).

I told the mother that I would help her son write out his music. Accordingly, that afternoon I had the boy play for me what he had composed. His composition was, to say the least, unmelodic and repetitive. Dutifully, though, I instructed him on how to use his music theory (or what he has so far learned) to write out the first few bars.

I cannot, however, actually imagine continuing to teach him music theory and help him to write out his composition(s) without acquainting him with the works of "other" composers and other styles. Yet, he won't be "dictated to" by the works of other composers in spite of the fact I have him learning modern pieces.

What would you teachers out there do with this boy?

Surely an essential basis for teaching composition has to include at least listening to the works of other composers to understand how they have used form and developed thier ideas? Is he as much opposed to listening to other composers as he is to playing their music?

Is this just an excuse to tell his mum he doesn't want to learn anymore, without hurting her feelings?

Is it worth asking him why he thinks people should listen to his compositions? Perhaps word this a little more positively than I have - very tired!

I'm sure this kind of activity has its place; in fact I've done it with my own pupils from time to time. But personally I wouldn't be willing to do that and hardly anything else. Many skills and qualities are developed through learning music generally, and limiting himself inthis way will, in my view, stunt all-round growth. Two of the qualities we can develop through music are discipline and humility. If Mozart could take advice from Haydn, then I think we all can learn from more experienced musicians, and many of those will be composers, alive or dead. So I would be trying to put this over to the mother and explaining nicely but firmly my reservations. Do keep us posted and best of luck with it.

It sounds like a spot of teenage rebellion, and quite healthy too! How about accommodating him for a couple of weeks. Over time, he may come to realise that learning to play other composers actually helps his own musical composition progress. Mention Billy Joel and Marvin Hamlisch. Both very successful pianists who can play classically and very beautifully, but became successful with their own work, commercially, not just artistically. That ususally interests my youngsters!

This is a very arrogant attitude to have, as unless the 13 year old has a genius akin to Mozart he can not hope to understand how music is harmonized without 'being dictated to by other composers' and to dismiss 500 years of true genius in one fell swoop is ridiculous, and has already been pointed out Mozart certainly took advise from others.

It sounds to me like he does not want to be learning the instrument any more.

I'd be inclined to spend some of the lesson doing the theory and his composition then insist that it is important to play and understand devises used by other composers to develop your own style etc. Especially if you want to compose anything with any substance. But also ask the question, does he genuinely want to continue.

Musically ignorant parent speaking! It always amazes me that children are expected to write poetry at a very young age, and without having read much or even any poetry before doing so. No doubt English teachers hope that by encouraging the writing of poetry, they might also encourage their pupils to read it too. I'm not sure it works that way... but maybe a similar approach is not wholly inappropriate here. I'm curious to know whether it is impossible to compose without an awful lot of studying first.

As others have said, this boy will either soon get bored and return to playing (or, more likely, give up altogether) or will get sufficiently bitten by the composing bug that he will see the value of looking at the work of other composers.

Thank you so much! I really like your advice about asking him WHY he thinks his music is worth listening to. And having him listen to REAL composers sounds like a very good idea. At least, he wouldn't need the discipline to learn the music himself. If he is not interested, though, I cannot imagine continuing to teach him after Christmas. As someone else wrote, he needs discipline and humility, and it does seem to me he is very arrogant in thinking his music is the only music worth playing. I just wonder how his parents have tolerated listening to his composition. It isn't anything I'd like to listen to more than once.

Could you begin by looking at some pieces of music to analyse them with a view to understanding how music works, and then asking him to pick one to "discover more about it" by learning to play it?
I would explain that he does need to keep up his playing in order to have good technique for composing - maybe do some scales, arpeggios and exercises as well - but that your starting point will be music to help him compose better, rather than pretty tunes.
If you show that you take him seriously, he will either turn out to be a hugely rewarding pupil, or will give up very quickly (if his real motivation was not wanting to practice).

Thank you very much for the advice. Well put. I shall indeed mention Mozart's taking advice from Haydn. I will give him a few weeks to see what develops. I have told his mother he needs a computer program to hook up to his digital piano so that his "music" can be written without my input (his opening of three bars consisting solely of the same sixteenth notes in 4/4 time was, in my opinion, a real waste of time for him to write out by hand - even he was surprised at how long it took).

I also want to explore his aural skills to find out whether or not he could write his music at a table, listening to it in his mind, rather than hammering away at the piano.

I will attempt to keep teachers updated on developments, but I can't be too enthusiastic about progress. I used to teach English as well as Music, and it seems to me the situation is similar to having an English student tell me he/she wants to be an author but doesn't want to read any "other" author's work - talk about being deprived of learning about different writing styles! In the same way, this boy won't learn about other music styles without the discipline to practice and the humility to admit he doesn't know it all.

I can't help feeling that you are going to be coming across all sorts of silly reasons why pupils don't want to take your advice. And he is being silly. It will take all your skills as a teacher to make see reason, which is one of the reasons the parents are sending him to you for lessons.

Young children, say 5 years old would rather play with duplo or other games than really 'learning' to play the piano. The parents are keen, so how are you going to encourage the child? An adults only wants to come for lessons to play Moonlight. How are you going to encourage them have a go at learning a few other things first? I can't afford to turn away all but the most sensible of pupils, simply because there aren't that many pupils out there who will go onto have a serious career in music.

You have the chance to get them interested, but it is down to you to turn the situation around. And if you can do it without loads of money needing to be spent by the parents, they will like you even more. That is only human nature. Siblelius used to cost around £100 for a student program, I don't know what the real charge is now.

If he really wants to write music, perhaps he should stick to the old fashioned pencil. It might make him realise that playing other pieces could be a bit more interesting!!

How about trying to link it all up - talk about some theory eg triads and inversions, then play him some music featuring that particular thing, get him to think about how it sounds and how to write it down. Finally he can spend some time experimenting with it to put in a composition of his own. I think you need to have a fairly organised and structured approach, or you will end up tearing your hair out. You can work in the listening and different styles in this way, without going into a head-on battle with him. Sitting at the piano with him and getting him to play things back to see how they sound, you can gradually get him to work on things. I have a rally good book from Schott called from Schonberg to Ligeti.here I'm working my way through it with a pupil who is inetrested in composition. It is great for his sight-reading too. Lots of interesting modern ideas in there, and a bit more accessible than some of the Spectrum stuff.

So that's the 'respect his views, take him seriously, try to engage with him spiel', but I have to say he sounds like a bit of a nightmare and I would give it about three weeks before you run screaming from the building as he approaches....

What a good idea. That will be very interesting and a challenging activity for him, I should think.

Would he like Einaudi pieces? In my experience teenagers love them, especially lads, and you could link the ideas in them to his own compositions - play the pieces through for him and talk about the structure etc.

My thought precisely. Get his mum to buy him a quill pen and an inkpot. Then see how seriously he wants to compose.

How about asking him to "improve" the pieces you want him to play that he doesn't like.

My (approx. grade one) daughter has a tendency to play what she thinks "sounds nice" rather than what is actually written. A couple of months ago, I think she got fed up with me telling her to play what was on the page. She went off (I thought to sulk) but came back with a piece of manuscript paper and a pencil and said that she was going to write it down "her way" and then she could play what was written. This actually took her quite some time time as she is not that good at reading music and found it very hard to notate accurately what she was playing. She had to keep refering to the actual piece to work out what to keep and what to change and by the time she'd finished writing her new version she had learnt to play the original piece properly. For the next week or so she systematically played the original piece and her version, somewhere along the way the original piece became "her favourite piece ever" and she is still playing it. I don't know what happend to her version of it.

Unlike your pupil, however, my daughter's teacher knows nothing of all this. I wouldn't dream of telling her to go to her lesson and tell the teacher she had written something better than Beethoven.