I have had a new pupil since January.She is 9.
It was fairly evident from the start that she was just not recognizing notation and certainly not being able to transfer what she sees to the keyboard. eg if it was C above Middle C she would just play any C.
She brought a little duet book with her and strangely enough, she is playing the pieces without any problem at all -they are very simple lines centred around the C positioning.I think she had one or two lessons before me and must have learnt them then. But as soon as we get on to anything more challenging like pieces in G major, she looks very glassy -eyed and admits she doesn't really understand the concept of notation. I am trying really hard to help her but am running out of ideas.
Help!!!
Barbara

Hi Barbara
I don't have any magic answers but this pupil sounds like a girl I have had for a year, also age 9, who is really struggling and who I think may be dyslexic. I have worked hard with her with flashcards, clapping and other games (even simple games like I name a note and she has to find it on the piano as quickly as possible) - and I have made such slow slow progress - but I have to say there is a small amount of progress. We moved to G major this week and so far she has coped ok. I have just learned to go at a complete snail's pace.

What I have learned about this pupil is to keep at it - I have used a huge number of tunes with this child to try and get music to stick - I just have to accept we move so slowly and she makes a lot of mistakes along the way.

Elizabeth

Does she understand shape, ie up a second, up a third etc?

I have a number of beginners tutor books, so if I come across someone who takes a while to get it, we'll do more than 1 beginners book to give some variation. However I prefer the ones that concetrate on recognising shape rather than focus completely on notes like Agay, or off stave Hal Leonard and Alfred. Learning the notes is obviously very important, but if you can read shape you can read a tune.

My inclination with your young lady, would probably be to use the Agay which moves fairly quickly and introduce it as 'sight reading' to help your note reading. Then also continue plugging away at the other more advanced things that you have been doing.

Flash cards are brilliant, do have a gander on the dyslexia thread I started a little while ago.

Yes. Flashcards can help a lot. You practice them in many ways, after you practice a group of them (like 5 or so) arrange (or let the student do that) them in any order on the stand, to make a little 'tune'. Or have them all lying open on the table (for example all the G position notes), and ask: which one is the D? etc.

Letting them write notes might work, help her write down Twinkle or something else.

I also use a large staff, about full A4 size with the 2 clefs and just room for about 1 measure, where I use coins as notes. I play a note, and the student has to put the coin on the corresponding place on the staff. You can think of more activities.

Also helpful: have them talk trough the piece, first they identify the starting note and then say up a step, up a step, down a third etc. I have a student who has been with me for 19 months already, she started at 6, she is now 8. It has taken almost 1 1/2 years to grasp very basic things, like up and down (she could not remember where high and low on the piano was, so if the music went down she would go up on the keyboard), she did not know LH and RH so she did not know which hand had to play, etc.
Obvious things are not obvious for these children. (She is not dyslexic)
Recently she has started making progress though, she is in the first half of PrepCourse B of Alfred's, which is what recommend for this purpose. The pieces are a little boring and predictable, and all in C position, but that is precisely what can help them grasp it, and gain confidence.

I often work by ear with a pupil in this case and teach them to play a short traditional song they know by ear and then give them the notation for it afterwards.

I've used things like London Bridge is falling down, Frere Jacques, Little Bo Peep etc. I usually give them a starting point and get them to work out where the tune goes, get them to sing it first if they get stuck and work on one phrase at a time. Once they can play the song and they know what notes they are playing, I then show them the notation and encourage them to follow it. Since they know how the song goes, they also know how to play it and the notation then makes more sense. It's something worth trying from a different angle maybe.


Louise

I get my younger pupils to write the notes down and I find that this really helps when learning about notation. I have a whiteboard with staves on and I ask them to write a row of d's or e's for example. I think that a child is more likely to remember notes when they start writing them, maybe you could give a manuscript book and ask your pupil to write certain notes down for homework?

Also, you could go over the Every Good Boy Deserves Fun etc as this gives them a method on how to work out notes they get stuck on. I do this with my pupils and to make it more fun I ask them to make up their own silly words/phrases to remember the notes for the lines and spaces. One pupil came up with 'Every Girl Buys Diamonds Forever!

Anyway, hope those suggestions will help.

I use white boards as well - younger pupils love them too. Great idea!


Louise

One little boy I teach came out with "Every Girl's Brain Doesn't Function"....

I totally agree with the "writing the notes" thing. I also think that some beginners' books move too quickly when introducing new notes - learning to recognise just a couple of notes at a time and SLOWLY add others means that they "stick" better in the mind. I usually use more than one beginner book so that notes are reinforced.

Just as a different point of view, are you sure she is practising regularly?
I have a couple of dyslexic pupils, but the majority of the pupils I have had over the years that seem to have a problem reading the notes either don't do regular practice or have cone from teachers who parrot teach them or let them pick it up by ear. Parents then think they are doing their practice as the can hear them fiddling about for a few minutes a day and don't realise it's not actually what you asked of them!
Just worth checking first, that's all.

Haha! It is amazing what they come up with.

Random thought, but you could try making a physical connection between the staff and the piano keys - ie have a huge staff with a note head on each line/space, ideally in a different colour, and a string (again if poss of the same colour) that is attached to the note heads on the staff and the piano keys on the other end (with white tack or something). Then if she traces her finger down the string from page to keys, that might help her get the concept - ie there's one unique place for every key...

There are a lot of tutor books out there who do something very similar, and they can be extremely useful. The danger is, and I've come across this, is when the pupil cannot play without that guide firmly in place. They loose all their confidence and then can't play! So yes they are brilliant, but in small doses, and only to reinforce learning how to negotiate the keyboard and the stave.

Every Good Boy Deserves Fun etc

I have to say that with many pupils, in my experience, the mnemonics can be more trouble than they are worth. Many children struggle to remember them, or mix them up, especially if they are trying to use more than one.

I do agree that writing the notes can help - although I have one little pupil who does lovely writing and theory - but doesn't find it easy to transfer this to the keyboard. Some do better when we don't use note names much but more on spatial understanding and intervals.

Someone has already mentioned the need to check whether the pupil is actually practising enough but I would say that at 9 years old and very inexperienced, (9 is very late to start learning the piano!) she ought to have a parent present in the lessons who is given instructions about exactly how to practise correctly and who then goes home and practises with the child. ( The parent does not need to be a musician as long as s/he understands exactly what she is supposed to do.) You would then start to see some results.

Hi JulieMarie you have a good point, but unfortunately parents present in the lesson doesn't always work! What is essential is good communication between the teacher, pupil and parent triangle. And 9 is still very young, even if old by some criteria.

Hope you are enjoying posting JulieMarie, and I look forward to reading more posts from you!

I agree JaneS - I don't think having a parent present for each lesson is a good idea. Better maybe to ask her/him to be sit in on one lesson per half term if you think this would help. Then the parent'll get a good idea of what's expected without having them sitting on your shoulder/the child's shoulder every week.

I also don't think 9 is very late at all - after many years teaching I think the ideal age for your 'average' child to start is 8. A 9 year-old is old enough to understand what's asked of him/her and with a bit of encouragement/push from home, to do it (I agree about checking on the practise).

I'm particularly interested in Maggiemay's point, though, as I have quite a several children like that - they're fine with flashcards, great at writing theory sheets, playing/naming single notes, recognising intervals, the works, but give them a new piece and ask them to play it and suddenly it all goes out the window and pure nonsense comes out !

9 is not late, I have many young new starters in first year secondary school and beyond who reach a high standard by end of 6th form.
A parent in on lessons can be very disruptive for the pupil, but a parent in on practice at that age can be invaluable. It can be hard for a 9yr old to just go off and 'do their practice'. It needs a certain structure, often the piano can be in a different room so they feel a bit iscolated or lonely, if they get stuck there's no-one to share it with etc.
I try to write in a structured way in their notebooks
eg. Scales - G,D maj 2 oct sep bend fingers
Dozen a Day Group I nos. 1-3 check LH note before you start.
Piece - 1st 4 bars twice, then on to next (whatever the problem is!)

That way they can try to practise. in the structure of the lesson, and it's easy for a parent to check the practice too. I encourage parents to 'be around' while their child is practising, not neccessarily sitting next to them nagging as that can cause friction, but in the same room maybe doing paperwork, watering plants, everynow and again calling out "that sounds nice dear, can you play it again for me?" or "how is that tricky scale coming along?"

I disagree completely with the above few posts. Firstly, virtually all of the great pianists started learning under the age of five. The reason that it is necessary to learn so young is that music is a language and needs to be absorbed as such. Once someone has gone past the age of learning their mother-tongue naturally, they will almost certainly never become fluent in the language of music. I am not saying that someone starting later can never acquire some mastery but it is much more difficult and this particularly applies to pianists. It is rather like learning a language when you haven't been brought up with it. Starting young necessarily requires parental involvement - once again all the great players had parents who were heavily influential in their development.

Frankly, if a child is started young and taught well ie s/he acquires a good technical foundation and a good ear, then reading notation almost always takes care of itself. Returning to the language analogy, a child who has learnt to speak will find learning grammar from a book relatively easy. Now consider trying to learn a language which you have never been immersed in from a grammar text-book. This is what teachers do when they stick notation in front of a child who has insufficient experience and command of the language.

As far as parents being "disruptive" in the lesson is concerned, it is up to teachers to explain very carefully to parents what is expected of them in relation to their child, before lessons begin and to ensure at each session that they understand exactly what they are supposed to be practising at home. Once the child has sufficient experience to work effectively unaided, then the parent can take more of a back seat. I find that very few children can really work alone under the age of twelve or thirteen and that is having started at five years or so.

I think this thread is in danger of going off the initial question. I would like to think that most children start at any age through wanting to expand their love of music and the chosen instrument rather than being heavily and intensely instructed from a very young age purely to become one of the elite.
The question is how best to help them to acheive their own aims, and to aid them in their own particular difficulties without at any point making them feel they are failing, and at every point helping them to enjoy what they have chosen.

Thank you all so much for your great ideas -I will start using them this week!
What a great support system the Forum is!
Barbara

JulieMarie, I can the point of your post but not in as an answer to the initial thread, it wasn't about a 9 year old aspiring to be a concert pianist (and struggling to read notation), it was how can a teacher could help her pupil overcome some difficulties.

As Miffy rightly said, its about helping each individual reach their goal and love for music. I am 36 and have started learning the piano. I don't intend to be a master, I intend to enjoy it for the love of it.

And the same could be said for any learning experience. Surely, initially we learn because we are interested not necessarily because we are seen to have the potential to be a master!

Sorry to stir things up....

You are not stirring anything up actually but there are two main problems with your argument:

1.Starting someone on their instrument at an appropriately early age and then giving them the best possible tuition does not preclude the possibility of their doing it for the love of it.

2. Some people do have the potential to become "masters", and teachers have a duty to give all children that possibility whether or not they ultimately have the capacity for it. There is nothing more tragic than a gifted person having receved inadequate tuition ( too little, too late, misguided etc) and then suffering a life of intense frustration atistically.

I think JulieMarie feels strongly and is probably quite right as well! Unfortunately, not everyone has the chance to start very young, or is in fact ready at that age. I don't turn people away from lessons simply because their age is not ideal. I have all sorts of information in my teaching practice sheet, and terms and conditions, which firmly state, no interruptions from attending parents or siblings. Most are courteous and read or day dream or don't come in at all. Others can't seem to help themselves, and are rarely the ones who take kindly to being spoken to firmly but politely, believe me, I have tried - honestly!!

Everyone develops at a different pace, and when someone struggles it is a good idea to cast the net wide regarding possible problems. Some nine year olds are more than ready to learn, others probably would have been ready years ago, but no one knew, and others still will most likely never be ready, and need to consider a different instrument.

Anyway, I can understand why JulieMarie feels so strongly. After all, if you teach and don't feel that children deserve early chances whenever possible, and do your best for them no matter what, then you probably shouldn't be teaching. JulieMarie clearly falls into the category of teacher who cares passionately for her profession and pupils!

Having re read this a few times (see its takes us adults a lot longer to absorb information) I am beginning to understand the point you were putting across.

Out of curiosity are you saying that with regards to young piano students, age 5 for example, reading notation would not be a priority until the foundations you mention are laid, or are you suggesting that they do learn to read notation but it is easier once those foundation are laid?

I am just curious because I have 2 girls who learn piano, one started at 7, the other at 5 and I think they both learnt to read notation almost straightaway as far as I can remember.

I can only say that this has not necessarily been my experience. I have had a number of French children come to me from French teachers who have set them very nicely on the road to good technique. But because of the teaching methods used they have not learnt to read music with any degree of fluency and cannot therefore tackle new pieces without a long and slow battle to acquire the notes. Reading notation does not take care of itself but needs patient and careful teaching.

The language analogy doesn't really stand up to the test either. I know plenty of fluent French and English speakers who do not find that the learning of grammar comes easily. In the case of the mother toungue I think the reverse is probably true - you need to have a good command of the spoken language before you can apply grammatical anaylsis to it.

In the case of a second language, learnt after the age for true bi-lingualism has passed it is not true. Many learners find the logical approach of a grammar based primer far easier than the muddy methods often put forward today as "real every day language". But it is, of course, true to say that grammar without everyday competence is not much use. You have to combine the two.

To return to music reading, there I also think you have to combine two elements - the general feel for music (the kind of thing we try to put in place with very young children ) and the application of its language to the instrument. A failure to learn to read music could be because one or both of these elements is missing.

I would like to add something to the remark that great artists must start at age 5. I made a new thread on viva piano about some performing pianists in the Netherlands, some are international competition winners and they started at the ages of 11, 8 and 9 respectively. I did not want to hijack this thread.

If such an enormous talent is there, it will come out anyway, even at a somewhat later age.

I am only posting this because I have read their biographies / interviews recently and I was really very impressed.


PS Julie Marie, I understand what you mean, and I do not disagree in general. I just wanted to share.

"There is nothing more tragic than a gifted person having receved inadequate tuition ( too little, too late, misguided etc) and then suffering a life of intense frustration atistically".
[/quote]


Unfortunately, there are plenty of things more tragic.

Teaching anyone to read music notation and to have full facility with it takes time and a careful approach, just as reading words does.

My worry is that too many teachers begin music reading too soon, before the child has had real experience of musical concepts. Most children have three, four or more years of listening to spoken language and developing their own skills in speaking before they are introduced to the written letter symbols. Yet we expect a child, in their first music lesson, to start reading and understanding these new symbols, which represent concepts that they may not be familiar with, or have any comprehension of.

This is building on sand, IMHO...

[quote name='Aquarelle' post='895868' date='Nov 17 2009, 09:25 AM']
[quote][quote name='JulieMarie' post='895385' date='Nov 15 2009, 01:27 PM']

Frankly, if a child is started young and taught well ie s/he acquires a good technical foundation and a good ear, then reading notation almost always takes care of itself. Returning to the language analogy, a child who has learnt to speak will find learning grammar from a book relatively easy. Now consider trying to learn a language which you have never been immersed in from a grammar text-book. This is what teachers do when they stick notation in front of a child who has insufficient experience and command of the language.
[/quote][/quote]

I can only say that this has not necessarily been my experience. I have had a number of French children come to me from French teachers who have set them very nicely on the road to good technique. But because of the teaching methods used they have not learnt to read music with any degree of fluency and cannot therefore tackle new pieces without a long and slow battle to acquire the notes. Reading notation does not take care of itself but needs patient and careful teaching.

The language analogy doesn't really stand up to the test either. I know plenty of fluent French and English speakers who do not find that the learning of grammar comes easily. In the case of the mother toungue I think the reverse is probably true - you need to have a good command of the spoken language before you can apply grammatical anaylsis to it.

In the case of a second language, learnt after the age for true bi-lingualism has passed it is not true. Many learners find the logical approach of a grammar based primer far easier than the muddy methods often put forward today as "real every day language". But it is, of course, true to say that grammar without everyday competence is not much use. You have to combine the two.

To return to music reading, there I also think you have to combine two elements - the general feel for music (the kind of thing we try to put in place with very young children ) and the application of its language to the instrument. A failure to learn to read music could be because one or both of these elements is missing.
[/quote]
Aquarelle, I think you are missing the point here and haven't quite understood what I meant by the language analogy. I was suggesting precisely that a command of musical language is essential before you introduce notation. To put it more simply sound must come before symbol. Also, I wasn't suggesting that reading shouldn't be taught properly or should be simply left to chance. I think it does require careful teaching and of course some people are naturally better at reading than others even with a good early start.



[quote name='dolce@piano' date='Nov 17 2009, 11:24 AM' post='895903']
"There is nothing more tragic than a gifted person having received inadequate tuition ( too little, too late, misguided etc) and then suffering a life of intense frustration atistically".
[/quote]


Unfortunately, there are plenty of things more tragic.
[/quote]

Depends how much music means to you and it is understandably hard for people for whom music is simply a commodity to identify with those for whom it means much more.

I think perhaps you're the one who's missing the point here!

No I don't think so but it would be interesting to know exactly what point you think am I missing.

To a certain extent, whether or not a pupil has a language, perception, eye-hand co-ordination problem, or simply is too young or too old, or learning the 'wrong' instrument, the details are really less important than all of us would like to think.

I can't help thinking that a lot of this discussion boils down to semantics, and is less of a disagreement in principle than otherwise might appear to those standing a few paces back. But then I suppose, no argument or discussion would this forum boring beyong belief.

Sometimes it is simply a matter of youth, or age, or intellectual difficulties or super intelligence, or familial encouragement versus boredom. The list is endless, but aren't we really meant to be finding a solution or suggesting suitable alternatives for the original poster?

Julie Marie, if I may quote you again. You actually wrote

“Frankly, if a child is started young and taught well ie s/he acquires a good technical foundation and a good ear, then reading notation almost always takes care of itself.”

I did not miss your point. I took issue with it Just because a person speaks a language fluently or has
a certain musical experience does not mean that an understanding of the intricacies of grammar or the complexities of musical notation will “take care of itself”. I do not think anyone would deny the sound before symbol dictum but decrypting, interpreting and playing from the symbol is a complex process.
I rather thought that to give the impression that such skills fall into place of their own accord was rather wide of the mark.

You are right that reading music is a complex task (and especially so for keyboard players) and I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with this obvious point, but this remains true whether or not the pupil started at an early age. I was trying to stress that with a command of the "language" of music already well-established, the process of learning to read can occur in a much more organic way.

I came across some research (can't remember where though) the other day into this very topic. The researchers found that pupils who began instrumental lessons ( I think it was focussed on pianists) under the age of 7 acquired much greater mastery of reading than people beginning later. Come to think of it, I know of no "expert" sight readers who began learning much after the age of 5 or 6.

Hello All,

Your ideas on improving reading notation have been very inspiring, but I was wondering if you could help with this particular situation:

I have a boy of about 14 years old, who has been having piano lessons for a number of years, though I have only been teaching him for just over a year.
He is obviously musical, and enjoys playing, and has proven to be very talented at composition and improvisation, which I have tried to incorporate into our lessons as much as possible. He also takes an interest in theory, and though he struggles to remember some basics, he understands most of the theory I give him.
Despite his strengths, he is being held back by his notation reading. He can tell me the mnemonics without any problems, and has very little problem with reading the treble clef, but his bass clef reading is horrendous. I have tried flashcards for a long time, including setting him homework using an online tool for notation practice, and spend a considerable amount of lesson time helping him to practice his bass clef reading. I don't think he is dyslexic as his treble clef reading is almost always perfect, and he can read so long as he has time to go through the mnemonics, which obviously takes a long time. I'm at a loose end about how to help him now, which is very frustrating because I think he could move on very quickly if he could conquer this - any advice?

PS In response to the discussion on starting age, I have been playing piano since I was 4, and though I am competent, I will never be a 'master'. To contrast this, my old piano teacher had a pupil who started age 13, who has now graduated from one of the most prestigious music colleges in the UK, studying piano. One of my own pupils, who is about 30, has been learning for a few years and is already an extremely accomplished pianist. I can understand how learning young can help, but at the same time, I think musical talent is musical talent whatever your age, and pupils shouldn't be given limitations on where they can get to based on their age.

My best sight reader is a girl who started piano lessons with me at age 11.

I find your ideas interesting and challenging, especially with regard to language. I moved my family to live abroad when my chidren were aged 6, 12 & 15. To everyone's surprise, it was the 15 year old who picked up the language quickest (he was fluent in less than a year) and the 6 year old who struggled most!

That is very interesting because in the English families I have met here it has always been the younger ones who got the hang of the French language more easily than the older ones. So your point only goes to show that learning is a tremendously individual thing and although broad trends can be found, there are alwys lots of examples of the opposite.

As far as reading music is concerned I think a lot of the success with this skill depends on the teacher's ability to adapt the presentation to the age and ability of the pupil. If that adaptation is successful then the skill will develop - though the speed of progress will differ from child to child. I have an entirely different approach with five year olds from that which I use even with seven year olds - and with older juniors and teenagers it is different again. However, I cannot claim to be as successful as I would like to be in all cases.
But therein lies the challenge and that is what makes teaching so interesting. It's like an eternal puzzle to which you have to find the right solution for each pupil. This thread has turned up a lot of interesting ideas
on that point.