Almost everyone plays the octaves in the last movement of the Waldstein as Glissandi. It is conventional for them to be played that way (and the AB edition actually marks them as glissando).

But Beethoven himself did not specify Glissando. In the manuscript he simply marked them to be played with thumb and little finger throughout. Andras Schiff says "so obviously they are to be played glissando". But that is not obvious at all. All that is obvious is that Beethoven wanted them played as octaves and not split between two hands (as some pianists like to do).

Neither is it an argument that you have to play glissandi because of the tempo. The music is plenty slow enough to play real octaves. And I prefer to play them that way.

Horowitz played separate octaves, and so did Cziffra - and made an even better job of it. But they were two of the finest pianists that ever lived. Everyone knows that they could have played glissandi if they had wanted.

But if this widely unknown, 5th-rate concert pianist (i.e. yours-truly) does the same then the audience will think that I either:

a. am ignorant of how it is "supposed" to be, or
b. am incapable of playing glissandi

They aren't likely to attribute it to a carefully thought through choice. Should I care? What should I do?

a. explain in the programme notes
b. explain in a spoken prologue
c. make a show of playing glissandi octaves in a warm-up
d. take Claudio Arrau's approach - just play it the way I think it should be, and be d a m n e d

I'd go with d. but maybe a. would add something interesting and possibly not too well known to your programme notes.

Anyone who calls you ignorant is a hypercrite! Play it how you like, you're the pianist! If they complain about it (which I highly doubt they would), ask them if they could do any better, because they probably couldn't! (unless you're unfortaunte enough to say that to a secret concert pianist who gives Martha Argerich a run for her money!).

I think if you talked about the argument between playing straight octaves verses Glissandi in your programme notes, then if anyone does question it because you've not done it "their way", it shows alot of thought has gone into the matter.

Sorry if what i've said doesn't make sense, I'm not very good with this English lark! (I may be native English, but my grammar is often shocking!)

I'd play it the way you think it ought to be played - it's part of you making the piece your own, which I believe is what your audience want to hear.

I'd also alude to it in the programme notes.

Good luck with it!!

I always assumed that they should be played as separate octaves, and that if only I had years to practise I might be able to play them at a reasonable speed. A friend who is a concert pianest certainly played them separately, and it sounded right. So (d) for me.

Chris

Just wanted to chip in and say that I absolutely love the Waldstein Hope you enjoy playing it as much as I do listening to it!

Interesting point.

In my youth when learning, I could never play glissandi on the upright piano at home (by Wm. Kenna Smith), but it was easy on the somewhat battered grand in the church hall.

I too enjoy the Waldstein.

Tom, I agree with you that these should not be played glissandi. I always try to play them separately, but not very well!

d

Be your own man, ### the rest of them!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like the "play them glissandi" is not so universally believed as I thought - at least not among people that actually play, rather than just write criticism of others.

So it is option d (separate octaves) possibly combined with a (a mention in the programme notes)

When I saw Daniel Barenboim play this in his Beethoven sonata cycle last year, he played with two hands.

Is there a slur over the octaves? I only ask because although they are slurred in my Augener copy, my historic/spurious edition of the sonatas dates from 1912, and it's somewhat unreliable.

Check out Charles Rosen's Piano Notes on this issue. He argues that glissandi were more easily played on instruments of Beethoven's time, and, as a result, deployed more frequently. Rosen cites two passages that are now usually played with two hands, but may have glissandi in the 1800s - the unison demisemiquaver figures at the end of the Haydn C major Fantasy and the large, descending scale immediately before the recapitulation of the first movement of Beethoven's First Piano Concerto. I believe the same argument could be extended to the 'Waldstein', but if it's down to you, I would suggest doing what your ears tell you. Good luck!

If an audience member chooses to assume that a pianist who is capable of playing the Waldstein in concert may have some technical fault then that persons opinion can be safely ignored. People may disagree with your choice of technique (and clearly some will) but that is a quite different thing.

Perhaps a sentence or two in the program notes about the enormous technical challenges in this piece, using the glissandi as an example, might be worth a shot.

Beethoven's piano had shallower keys than the modern ones do, and I seem to remember someone saying that in Beethoven's day, octave glissandi would highly likely have been possible, but not on today's pianos. I think my teacher told me to split the octaves between the hands because of the speed, from what I remember (although it's now over 20 years since I studied this piece with him... (and yes, he's an international concert pianist - was back then, and still is....)

Edit- sorry, just noticed Edward beat me to it! Serves me right for not reading all the replies first!!

I respect his skill, his knowledge, the depth of his research, and he is undoubtedly a far, far better pianist than I have any hope of ever becoming ... but although he is very famous for his Beethoven, and for his master classes I don't actually like the way he plays most of the sonatas!


They are slurred in every edition I have ever seen. I take it you are saying that the slur implies glissando, as it isn't possible to play legato octaves Prestissimo any other way?


He does indeed, and he also tells us how a technician added extra lubrication to the Capstans to make the glissandi easier. However in his book on the Beethoven sonatas he just has a paragraph listing all the show-off techniques in the finale - amongst which he says glissandi. So he clearly thinks that is what should be played. Maybe he is right?

It is not that I can't play glissandi. It is actually easier (for me) to play glissandi rather than separate octaves (even on a grand piano with a heavy action) because my hands stretch more than a 10th and that is big enough to take the octave with my thumb turned under so that the nail faces the direction of motion. I was more concerned with what realizes Beethoven's intentions better?

I had thought that the clarity of separate octaves was preferable, but if that Prestissimo is supposed to be an opportunity for the soloist to be flamboyant then glissandi probably are more in the spirit of the finale.

More confused than ever!

Spotted this on youtube... quite a nice job IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU1s4YANv08