I've just started incorporating new notes into violin, for example C instead of C#, F# instead of F etc. etc., and I'm having quite a few problems with it. I see the notes, I can visualize where my fingers should be when I play, but I just can't quite manage to either make the gap big enough, or get my fingers close together properly!
So, in order to get these notes properly, would it be entirely detrimental to progress if I practiced the fingering for these notes with the violin laying on my knee, so I can see that I have the fingering right, and then playing pizzicato for ten minutes or so at the start of each practice session? I understand that this can't replace proper playing with the bow and with all the components of playing the violin going on, and is different to playing correctly with the violin on the shoulder, but do you think it may help at all? I was just thinking in terms of technique, it at the very least can't do any harm?

My only reservation is that you will be holding the violin completely differently to the way it is held for playing. Developing flexibility of the fingers is the secret here, along with fine tuning your ear.

Nothing wrong with pizzicato practice, but no, it is not a substitute for practice with a bow and in fact, the best way to sort out intonation issues is with legato bowing, because that's when duff intonation shows up the most!

ask your teacher to show you some sevcik op1 p1 exercises, practice these slowly every day for a few minutes at the beginning of your practice session, they will help heaps in time (they are helping me )

If struggling with intonation just play the botes slowly, sepearte bows, legato until you get it correct. Then speed up to the required tempo and then put in the correct bowing and dynamics.

My techer makes me do this a lot so I can learn the finger pattern for the piece I am playing.

This is a common issue, so don't worry too much, it will come eventually the more you get to recognise the sounds. By playing notes on your knee it may allow you to get the sound in your head before you start but won't necessarily give you the "feel" of where your fingers should be when in playing position.
I found it useful to buy a chromatic tuner so that I could test my fingers before playing and while playing a piece could see the red and green lights of the tuner out of the corner of my eye to check my positioning, my tuner is a "cherub" which I have found the simplest to use. Also by playing the scales through every day before playing a piece will help fix the sound in your head better, I know scales are boring but this is where they are invaluable in getting sounds into your mind. Good luck and keep trying

I know there will probably be different opionions on tuners etc so I am just going to express my teacher's opinion on tuners and he may be right or not but here goes:

my violin teacher absolutely forbids me to use a tuner to check if I am playing in tune!
he wants me to solely rely on my ear, checking against open strings, playing exercises over and over again to develop my ear.
He says that the tuner is not always right, that as a violin player you have to 'adapt' as well to which other instrument you are playing with as well, that if you play solo your fingers may need to be very slightly differently placed that if you play alongside a piano etc (now I am not totally sure yet what that means although I have pretty good idea of what he might mean, but I am new to all this, my previous teacher NEVER taught me how to play in tune!).

Anyway, I must say that I now understand why in the past my previous teacher would tune the violin for me, then when I stuck my chromatic tuner on and checked if the violin 'was in tune' according to the chromatic tuner it was slightly flat or sharp!

I have learnt NOT to use the tuner now and use my ears, I am far from being an expert on this and need a lot of improvement but am definitely improving

Any teachers out there with 'opinions' on chromatic tuners?

jojo, i would agree with your teacher, and i think tuners should only be used if really really despirate, as they are not totally reliable. You know when you start shifting, i have come to realise how important the "guide" notes are, so i think it is a combination of this with ear-tuning, inorder to get good intonation. But, as you know, when your teacher is not there, it may be really difficult to get really in tune, as sometimes my finger can be only a fraction out! It is quite an interesting subject as i read some months ago, that there is no such thing as perfect intonation----when you read about how the octaves are formed, there is no such thing as the perfect octave! But, yes i never use a tuner.
Glade to hear you bought a clarinet --- is it difficult to play? --- bet you end up wanting to learn to play it properly!!!!

about the clarinet, it is REALLY only a toy, I have not touched it or looked at it in 3 weeks now and have no desire to as yet so we will see but I have the feeling it will end up gathering dust.
the violin remains my 'love' followed by a 'fling' with double bass

I would absolutely agree that a tuner is a very bad idea.

Tuners are based on equal temperament - the intervals are therefore not in tune.

A good way to prove this is to play a b on the a string with the tuner telling you it's right - now try to make a fourth with e above, or a sixth with the d below. Ouch.

Intonation needs to change depending on the key you're playing in and the only way to develop good intonation is to use your ears. Singing the melody or humming it a note ahead of what you're playing will probably help - or some Kodaly lessons if you can get them.

Definitely don't use a tuner for checking your intonation - nor for tuning your fiddle.

Agree with all the comments about tuners.

Eventually you can start hearing the difference between out of tune, in tune and really in tune.

In regards to fingering, try some scales and use a metronome, start really slow and slowly build up accuracy and speed.

Try playing slowly up a string while also playing the open string next to it, eg. play A-B-C-D then A-B-C#-D while also playing open D. This shows up even the slightest error in intonation, and you can more easily hear it so you train up your ear while building up your mechanical memory. Make sure you really 'feel' the notes with your fingers while you do it.
Also, from a purely logical/practical point, remember that between each tone gap there needs to be room for a semi-tone - so room for an extra finger, so a finger's gap..if that makes sense..sorry, tired!
Hope that's helped a bit!

tuners are always right, unless they're broken -- they don't suddenly decide to report all pitches 30 cents flat for no reason. the problem is, as ros says, tuners usually use equal temperament, which is often not what you want for fretless string instruments. also, your ear is much more accurate at hearing the dissonance between two pitches (unison, or fifth, or whatever) than a cheap tuner is.

expensive tuners are very accurate - better than anyone's ear - and can be configured to use ET, or perfect fifths, or any other temperament. but you still shouldn't use one of these, because you won't be able to carry it around with you to every performance; you need to be able to hear whether you're playing correctly with your ear.

yes, thank you Miffy, I'd forgotten about that one! it DOES help, I am currently doing n.8 on sevcik op1 p2 and that is exactly what I have to do (in third position), play G with my fourth finger on A string and whilst playing this, play on D string A/B/C (and corresponding flats/sharps) with my 1st/2nd/3rd finger. You are right when you say it helps to hear the slightest error, it's quite 'fun'

The main theme from Sevcik op.2 no.1 ex.3(?) also. Starts along each string, then in double stops with open strings then string crossing while holding certain fingers down.
Or you can just make 'em up to suit.

Or sleeep..zzzz...

My fingering seems to finally be settling in right, at long last! Its just so annoying when I know exactly where my fingers need to be but I just can't get them there! Slightly unrelated, but does anyone have any tips for improving on tone, by any chance? I've been doing lots of practice of different bowing speeds on open strings as suggested by a friend, but it doesn't seem to make any difference! Should I be doing something different/extra?

Not all that unrelated, actually - good tone needs good intonation and therefore good fingering too - it's not just a bow thing. When a note is really in tune, sympathetic vibrations happen on other strings (if your third finger G on D is in tune, the open G below should vibrate at the same time) - these things add up to the tone as well.

For bowing, slow practise is the way - I used to see how long I could make each bow last, whilst bowing quite near to the bridge, then quite near to the fingerboard - aim for in excess of a minute per bow (it will be really hard, but even if you never get there, it will do wonders for your tone).

Attacks is also important - try to make sure that you are using a clean attack and that when you change bow direction, it doesn't sound scratch - practise changing bow direction at the tip and at the heel twenty times in a row.

Good luck!

Thank you, this is very helpful but what do you mean by a sound scratch?

Sorry, I meant 'doesn't sound scratchy'... should have re-read before posting!

For tone, firstly make sure the fingers on the left hand are contacting string-fingerboard properly, often a player will blame their bow when it is actually the left hand that's not secure. You can test this by first plucking an open string, which of course has the ultimate connection, then putting a finger down and adjusting it until you have a plucked note with a similar ring to the open string. This will give you a good idea of the pressure and angle you need your fingers at for good contact.

For the bow, a secure bowhold and relaxed shoulder help. Then slow bowings, keeping the speed the same from beginning to end, iron out any tension or juddering at the heel, and plan rather than snatch at the bow change at the top end. A little extra pressure at the tip also compensates for the lighter end.
Study-wise, Sevcik Op.2 no.1 gives you just about every bowing you will ever need!
Slow scales also help, as does anything where you only need to concentrate on the bow and not tricky combinations of notes.

How much pressure should the fingers place upon the string? Should it be fully pressed down into the string, or just enough to "stop" the string to get the pitch right?
Also, how much would anyone suggest I practice each different thing? For example, how long for open bowing, on testing fingering, slow scales, etc etc? I try to practice about an hour a night, it's not always possible though. I just never seem to know how long to practice each thing for though!

quite a few people will agree that you should aim to spend half of your practice session on technique and half on your 'pieces' so if you practice for an hour, do 30 mins technique (ie: slow bows on open strings/sevcik exercises or kreutzer etc, scales etc etc) then the other 30 minutes on pieces.
Depending on how many different exercises you do for technique you may have to spend only 5 minutes or less on each. For example, I do 6 exercises from sevcik op1 p1 and 4 from op 1 p2 and 3 from kreutzer in my 30 minutes technique so I only spend 2 to 3 minutes on each (yes I over run my 30 minutes technique often if I spend 3 minutes on each, if I spend 2 on each then I have 4 minutes left to do some scales )

Practice your pieces first really slow, concentrate on intonation and getting the right fingering etc, then practice each section accordingly, according to piece if you have a passage of fast notes it helps to practice these at different rythms and with different bowings (do you have a teacher? he/she will be able to show you all this).
An hour of practice a day done WELL will be enough to take you to grade 8 and beyond.

I agree with Jojo, about half and half for a 30min practice, maybe 1/3 and 2/3 for longer?
You are doing great to fit an hour in a day, wish I could!
I go for what I call 'smart practice' - if I don't have long I target a couple of bars that has an issue, and do a those few minutes very intensely. If I then have time to move on I do, if not, at least I feel I have gone some way towards fixing a problem.

Re the pressure on strings - I guess to a certain degree it is personal to the individual violin/strings/fingers. Experiment, but try not to over press and cause other tensions!

Check out the videos on violinmasterclass.com - they have a very useful one on finger pressure on strings.

They suggest dropping the finger onto the string and then immediately dropping half of the pressure off and seeing if the note still sounds cleanly - you may well be surprised at how little pressure is needed to stop the string effectively.

A teacher of mine also once told me to imagine my fingers sinking into the finger board with gravity on my arm providing the downward force to stop the string, rather than pushing down with the fingers. As a teacher (of voice, not fiddle) I don't like imagery, because it generally doesn't work from one person to the next - each person having his or her own way of feeling things (I much prefer to teach accurate scientific info and let the student tell me what sensation they have personally) - but this particular image worked well for me - give it a try - if it works first time, great - keep it, if it doesn't work right away, chuck it - imagery either works for you or it doesn't.

Anyhow, definitely check out the website, and perhaps Todd Ehle's videos on youtube too.

Good luck!