I was interested to see this post in the Hymn thread. Is it widespread then that the clergy have stopped doing home visits? I very nearly wrote to one of the Christian magazines about this matter because I was so when I came up against this attitude myself.

An elderly relative was in a temporary nursing home following discharge from hospital and was extremely ill. The family thought that just in case she herself had any fears about not pulling through, it might be comforting if the vicar of the church where she had been a regular worshipper were to visit her to talk through any concerns she might have of what might be to come. I telephoned someone in the parish and was told that the vicar wouldn't visit her because the nursing home was outside his boundary (maybe a mile). A designated visitor went instead, and apparently spent the whole time chattering about his holidays. Nothing spiritual, nothing gentle or caring - just mindless chatter which she was too ill to take in.

Eventually she recovered well enough to go back to her retirement home - a place full of elderly people, some of whom were not mobile, but did the vicar ever visit? No of course not, even though it was only just down the road. When she subsequently went to a care home, where many people spent their last days, the church was only a couple of minutes walk but again the vicar (a different one) never visited. She's now at another nursing home where the church is opposite, but yet again the vicar (another different one) never visits.

All the visiting seems to be left to lay visitors, and with the exception of the one mentioned above, they have been very kind. But it's not like having a spiritual visitor, who you might think would have enough concern about people who are about to meet their maker, to go and visit them occasionally to offer them comfort.


I turned against the church and religion a long time ago. My elderly relative, having been a churchgoer for her entire life, has now also turned turned against the church in the belief that God has deserted her. It's tremendously sad - although I didn't believe myself, I knew she had been a strong believer all her life, and at the very time when she should have had spiritual comfort from the person best qualified to give it, none of them could be bothered.


Sorry about the rant, but even if I hadn't turned against the church and religion many years ago, the fact that the clergy can't even be bothered to visit the most vulnerable in society who most need their comfort, would have done the job. What do the clergy actually *do* when not taking a service, if they don't do home visits any more

Since you ask, my OH has spent much of the past week visiting

1) sick and dying people in hospital, and

2) ill and bereaved people in their own home.

Sorry maggie, I didn't mean any offence to those very hardworking members of the clergy who do fulfil a very caring pastoral role. But what it shows is how the attitude of lay people like myself are influenced by the practices of some members of the clergy who have no intention of fulfilling this role. Swell Box's post reflects my experience too. My relative is very embittered and so am I, and the clergy who we have come into contact with are responsible for her turning against the God she had worshipped all her life, because none of them took the trouble to visit her and try to help her understand why God had visited so many ills upon her when she's led such a blameless life, and in His service.

To be fair, (there's always a first time!) the clergy do a lot of visiting to bereaved families in order to gather material for the funeral. Husband and I have both lost our mothers this year so we've been on the receiving end.

When said husband was dreadfully ill some years ago the Rector visited him in hospital, but at the time he was a Reader in training.

We even had a visit from the bishop once, damm£t, - I was in the middle of the weekly wash and had piles of stuff all over the kitchen floor - again, I think it was because OH was an ordinand at the time (never followed through, btw).
I suppose all this could fuel the charge that they were caring for their own.

The priests in the parish in which I work often make home visits to people who have been bereaved or who are ill. They are popular men and very nice people.

The priests in the parish in which I grew up don't seem to do this at all. I think it is because they are afraid of the reception they will get. In this country, the difficulty is the massive difference in the status of priests since most of them were ordained. Twenty or thirty years ago people held the church on a pedestal, not any more. Also the sense of community in many churches is nonexistant because they are huge and here many people can come and go and mass for years without the priest ever getting to know them.

It's a very tricky thing...so many priests are doing a great job and suffer the consequences of those who did/do not.

Home visits by the clergy happen often in my parish. Communion is taken to people unable to come to the church who would like it. I was in hospital 15 miles away early last year, and I was offered a visit from the priest - I didn't take up the offer, but it was a genuine offer.
I think quite a lot of time is taken visiting bereaved families too - funerals/associated services take quite a lot of planning most times, so it can take up several visits.



I realise that we might be lucky here though.

This is very true, but it is a bit late for the person who has died.

The position seems to be that many parishes are trying to recruit lay people (sometimes Readers, but not always), to carry out home visits to sick and dying people, to take home communion, to arrange baptism and wedding preparation and so forth. The idea is that this helps to free up the clergy to do other, more important things, although I sometimes wonder where their priorities are here.

I don't honestly know much about what the clergy do when they are not actually taking services (about five hours a week in our case). Maybe the clergy are overburdened with paperwork and meetings? Maybe they feel that attending civic events is more important than visiting the sick? What they don't seem to understand is that many lay people also have to work very long hours, and it is hard enough getting up at 6.30 am every morning to earn a crust without taking on someone else's work - somebody who we are already paying for through the parish share.

I personally know of several, very loyal churchgoers, (including two former PCC members) who have not received visits from clergy when they really needed them. In one case the local Catholic priest went round instead, and was very helpful, and in another a retired priest from another parish went out of his way to visit.

Similarly, my own mother in law was a devout Catholic all her life, and never missed a mass; ever. When she died her eldest son called the priest, perhaps hoping for some prayers over her body before the undertaker came. He was told that as she was dead there wasn't much he could do, and that he would come round in a day or so to arrange the funeral.

As I said before, it seems that some modern clergy feel they are here to be served, and not to serve. But I also feel we need to separate the Church (any church) from Christianity in our own minds, as the two are no longer one and the same (if they ever were).

However, my own observations on this subject are that the clergy and people of 'high' Anglican churches are much more caring of their flock than those further down the candle, where (in my experience) people seem more preoccupied with internal politics and who should be allowed to arrange the flowers this week.

Moving slightly off topic, one my frustrations is with clergy who deliver pulpit thumping sermons about justice, fairness, honesty, integrity and all the usual things, but then refuse to say anything when one of their own PCC members behaves unacceptably.

SB

Having just had a bereavement the Rector of Beccles (who is blind) had a meeting with my wife and mother in law for about 2 hrs on Sunday. He is taking the service at the Crem next Monday but it will be a proper service with a couple of hymns and readings , as well as the normal liturgy. My daughter will do the readings , she is a Reader-In-Training.
Licensed Readers can apparently take funeral services, but of course not Weddings or Communions. The timing was bad for her, as she was supposed to be on a course last weekend to learn about taking funerals ! (she cancelled it and will do it later). Certainly in her home parish in Herts, there seems to be a lot of home visiting, though they do have a Rector, a Curate, a Reader, and two Readers-in-Training.
At my own chapel in Hoylake there is only the Minister who seems to visit, but she is kept quite busy as the normal congregation is rather elderly.
In my home town in Yorkshire, my father stopped going to church after my mother died just over two years ago. He still get visits from the Minister (Methodist) on a regular basis, though I am not sure he appreciates it. The fellow always wants a cup of tea !

This is off topic for the Viva Organ forum and should be moved to the Forums Cafe.

I think they like to call them 'retreats'.

SB

" For I was hungry and you did not feed me, thirsty and you did not refresh me, a stranger and you did not entertain me, naked and you did not clothe me, ailing and in prison and you did not care for me." (Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 25, verse 36.)

The Greek word for prison means 'place of imprisonment' but can also refer to times of the night, or lair of evil spirits. 'Prison' can mean different things and not just a place of incarceration.

Traditionally, the clergy have visited, on the basis of the text above and out of charity. The good that they have done has been untold. Nowadays, the clergy tend to restrict themselves to 'crisis visiting'. i.e. bereavement, etc. That category of visiting must , of course, be paramount.

I recall the late Anne Williamson, wife of The Right Reverend Roy Williamson, sometime Bishop of Southwark, telling me how her husband, when a vicar, baptised, married and buried the faithful, took ordinary services with ordinary hymns and good preaching, and visited all the faithful in their homes. The church was packed. Every week.

Alas, it is not so these days. The clergy, for whatever reason, (and there may be excellent reasons, I do not know,) place ordinary non-crisis visiting lower on the list than using the computer to generate fancy liturgies, etc.

Board members will know, from other Posts, that I am somewhat isolated from what appears to be the norm in churches these days. Yet I cannot but observe that those places where visiting is high on the list of priorities have larger attendances than elsewhere. They also seem to have fewer 'political' problems.

I really do wonder whether the training of the clergy is at fault. One hears that they have been told " Make all the liturgical changes in the first twelve months or you will never alter their worship." Clerical friends of mine have also told me that when they are appointed to a church they take care not to alter anything unless there is very good reason, as it will disturb the worship of the congregation. ("If it's not broke please don't try and mend it.")

I may be (and probably am) over simplifying the issue, but the undoubted success of those places where the 'traditional' style prevails does make me wonder whether some of the clergy should re-evaluate their ministry - in the same way that they challenge the ministry of the musicians that they employ.

Finally, I respectfully disagree that this is a discussion better transferred to the Forums Cafe. It is directly pertinent to the employment of organists and thus is correctly located in this thread.

Barry Williams

Is it too cynical to wonder if some clergy are happy to come round after a bereavement to talk about the funeral because that's a service which people pay extra for, whereas they don't get paid extra for home visiting As somebody else pointed out, it's a bit too late to be of comfort to the deceased, and the bereaved family may not be believers. Certainly if a vicar hadn't been bothered - even when requested - to visit any of my close relatives whilst they were in the last stages of their life, I certainly wouldn't welcome any so-called words of comfort from the vicar after they had died.



I didn't realise this. So not only can some clergy delegate pastoral care, they can also delegate funeral services


I'll just make it clear again that I've got nothing but admiration for those hardworking clergy who have compassion and concern for the parishioners in their spiritual care, but the clergy I have come across in the last few years do not deserve that respect and they have no-one but themselves to blame if their churches are empty.

Ok, something I haven't shared online before -

I married in my local village church and then promptly moved to another parish, and whilst I did help out on a couple of occasions when they were short of an organist, that was my last visit to that church for a while.

4 years later When my eldest was born by C section a month and a half early, she weighed 1.17K (2lb 9 oz.) and was in the special care unit of our city hospital for over a month before being referred to Birmingham Children's hospital. I had been in our local hospital 4 days, just been allowed out of the wheelchair following the op, made my way down to the unit to visit my daughter the vicar who married us, who I'd seen twice in that 4 year period was waiting for me. At first I assumed he was seeing someone else, but no, he'd made a special visit (8 miles) for me and it did mean an awful lot.

I do think that it depends very much on the priest in charge and the size of the community it serves, the vicar at the church where I am in the organist I am sure would visit whenever needed, the replacement in my old village I'm not so sure, my parents who are active members of the community but not regular churchgoers have never met him.

I can't comment on all parishes, but in the parishes I have lived in, the clergy definitely do still do home visits, willingly and without any quibbling whatsoever. When I had serious flu last year and was at home for quite a period, I was offered a visit and, indeed, home communion, if I wanted it.



If it is indeed the case that any of the above vicars was actually asked to do a home visit and refused, then I have to say I'm appalled by this. But I just wonder whether the request made it through as far as the vicar? You mention, for instance, that you spoke to someone in the parish, and it may be that someone was being "over-assiduous" in sidelining the request, without passing it on.



Speaking as the daughter of a (now retired (female)) vicar, they do a lot! Just for eg:
- school assemblies
- baptism, wedding and confirmation preparation classes
- Bible study and prayer groups
- Lent and Advent courses
- youth clubs
(all of the above requiring preparation in advance, on top of preparation for the weekly services)

Then in addition:
- often they have to act as governors for church schools (it's usually ex officio)
- they're usually lumbered with a number of listed (listing) buildings which they are expected to ensure don't fall down, but where even the smallest piece of building work requires arcane paperwork and permissions

and that's without all the admin and other rubbish heaped on them by the Synod!

Add to that the fact that most vicars are looking after multiple parishes, so they have the above x 3, 4 or more, and I think it's fair to cut them a little slack, and not expect them necessarily to be aware without being told of everyone in the parish who needs visiting.

All that said, I don't think there is any excuse for actively refusing to make a home visit when requested, so my advice if the same situation arose again would be to make sure you speak direct to the vicar him/herself, and put the request directly. There is no way your relative should have been left without the support and comfort she needed.

"[i),,,,that's a service which people pay extra for,,,[/i]"

Although people pay the church (PCC) fees for the statutory services, the clergy do not always get a fee for the Occasional Offices. Many of the clergy execute a Deed of Assignment by which they receive the Diocesan minimum stipend, but have to pass all the wedding and funeral fees to the Diocese, usually once a quarter.

(..he'd made a special visit for me and it did mean an awful lot.)

Me to. I remember with gratitude visits from clergy when I was very ill in 1988. Those visits were special.

I also recall, back in the days when I had a parish church job as organist and choirmaster, the Vicar calling specifically to thank me for my work and at the end of the visit asking me to kneel whilst he gave me a blessing. He regularly visited all the choir and servers in the same manner, as a matter of course. It made a huge difference to our work. In that place the PCC regularly gave votes of thanks to the choir, organists, servers, church cleaners, etc. Proverbs 16: verse 24: "Kind words are like a honey, sweet to the soul and health to the bones."

Clergy bashing is easy. Their task is often a lonely one and on many occasions thankless. I still find it very difficult to understand why ordinary parish visiting (i.e. non-crisis visiting) is either not done or is low on the priority list. The laity can do the church magazine, organise rotas, run the music etc, but the visiting is a job for the ordained minister and, to me, it is a key task. Certainly, it is the way to pack churches, though the number of backsides on seats is not necessarily the measure of spiritual efficacy. Rocking the boat over divine worship when the style is stable and effective makes certain that the congregation is not revitalised. People come to church for spiritual consolation, not to have their worship de-stabilised.

As with a choral music tradition, it takes years to build something up and just one Sunday to wreck it. I have seen it so often, over hymn books, forms of worship, chairs, carpets, nave altars and the rest. Often it is not what is done but the way in which it is done. And, had the parson been visiting the congregation, it might well have been different, for trust would have been built up first.

Yes, I consider non-crisis visits by the clergy to be essential and high on the list of priorities.

Barry Williams

Since I visit a lot of churches I have to admit, there is a world of difference in the attitude of those running the services. Most of the time someone will make enquiries as to who I am, and why I'm there (!!?). It makes a world of difference to my opinion of a church is that person is a member of the clergy or similar, who is happy to give me a few minutes of their time.

I guess this falls into a similar situation.
Surely, there have always been good at bad clergy though, its part of why church-shopping (the process of finding one you like) is such hard work.


I thought it was widely considered a good idea to stick topics of this nature in the organists forum, where those interested are likely to see it, but where riots rarely ensue? Yes, perhaps it belongs in the cafe, but its probably a lot safer, right where it is.

Nearly all of the above are done by lay people in our parish. The only notable exception is school assemblies, and those are few and far between nowadays.

I know that some clergy are incredibly hardworking, but many are not. But for the efforts of unpaid volunteers most churches would close down very quickly indeed, and the clergy would be out of a job. Is it not then reasonable that the clergy should, at the very least, care for those in the parish who support the church in thier various ways? Surely the 'cure of souls' is, or should be near the top of a parish preist's 'job description'?

We are always told how there are so few clergy, and that they are so stretched, but there seems to be no shortage of clergy when the Bishop comes to take a service. Where do they all come from?




Agreed. Added to which, most of the members here are likely to be regular churchgoers, and will have regular contact with clergy; so I would have thought the organ forum was the best place.

SB

It might be worth bearing in mind that many clergy are also unpaid volunteers.

We are currently going through interregnum (along with two other adjoining parishes) and OH is supposedly running a business and a parish at the same time.

We attended a choral event and flower festival at a Forward in Faith church a few miles away from home.

The preist there noticed that we were not regualrs, and made a point of coming over for a chat. He invited us over the the church hall for a cuppa, and spent a good ten or fifteen minutes chatting to us, and introducing us to people in the church. He quickly worked out that I sang, and introduced us to the lady who runs the choir, who told me that they like to sing masses liturgically, and invited me to come along for an audition.

How wonderful! These people took more interest and spent more time than our own preist and church members ever have, and whilst I am not sure about 'bells and smells' every Sunday, I would have no hesitation in worshiping there.

Is it any wonder that the church regularly has 150 or more worshipers every Sunday, some of whom travel 40 or 50 miles?

SB

Not wanting to get into a discussion on the subject, there will be very specific reasons relating to the Ordination of Women's measure which will being people a long way to a Forward in Faith Church... in some parts of the country they are more widely spread than some other Anglican churches.

That is true; although I must stress that I have no problem with the ordination of women, and my reasons for liking this particular church had nothing to do with it's theology, and everything to do with the very genuine welcome that we received.

(To me, a church is what you make it. If you are made to feel welcome, and enjoy the style of worship you can read whatever you like into the words; and after all, the words don't vary that much nowadays. I have often worshiped abroad, at churches where no English is spoken, and where I don't understand the local language, but my own devotions are just as valid.)

Equally, I find it interesting that the small group of people who cause most of the problems at our own church have often threatened to walk out, never to return if they ever smell as much as a hint of incence. That to me seems a perfect opportunity, but sadly others in the church are less willing to upset the apple cart.

SB

I wouldn't disagree with the last comment at all. In my original post, I was merely pointing out in response to skylark's question that, actually, clergy have a lot to do beyond the actual Sunday services, and therefore can't necessarily be expected to know without being told that someone needs visiting. Once they do know, I agree that it is a key part of their job to make the visit.

However, in my experience, many clergy are not fortunate enough to have the assistance of lay people in dealing with all or most of the tasks I listed. Maybe it's connected with living small rural parishes, but in the main the assumption seems to be that it is the vicar's job to run everything (other than cleaning, flowers and coffee-making!).

I also think maggiemay's point about many clergy these days being nonstipendiary volunteers, often with a day job on top of their ministry, is a valid one. I am aware of a number of parishes where this is now the case.

I know on the face of it this sounds logical and reasonable, but I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I can only speak in respect of my experiences with elderly people. Many elderly people live on their own and wouldn't dream of telephoning the vicar to ask for a visit.

At a retirement home, care home or nursing home, is it unreasonable to think that the clergy might call in to make their presence known to residents, maybe to see if they were churchgoers when they were fit and mobile, whether they would like communion to be given to them, whether they need spiritual comfort? At the very least, is it unreasonable to think that they might put a leaflet on the notice board, offering communion or spiritual comfort to those who wish to make contact? Do they never ask their lay visitors how someone is, and think to themselves that that person may welcome a spiritual visitor?

I was brought up in the church - I went to church, a church school, Sunday School and bible classes. The clergy were a highly visible and vital part of the community. They saw their parishioners in the traditional sense of their "flock" - people who came under their wing and the clergy looked out for them. Pastoral care was such an integral part of the clergy's role that I grew up thinking that caring for their "flock" was their job.

Fast forward through the years when I didn't have any reason to contact the clergy, to recent time when I've had a bit of shock to discover how much things have changed. If there is any one group in society which needs pastoral care, it is surely elderly people who are coming to the end of their life, and yet the clergy in three different parishes have never made any attempt to reach out to those people, on one occasion even when asked - albeit through a lay member of the church, but I'm sure he must have only been complying with the wishes of the clergy.

My own relative, after a lifetime of weekly churchgoing, has now all but lost her faith - probably not completely because it's too ingrained, but sufficient for it to seem very sad that at the time when she most needs it, she no longer gets comfort from it. I feel that she has been let down by the clergy of three different parishes who have never bothered to visit her to give spiritual guidance. Lay people, no matter how kind and well-meaning they are - and I don't mean to imply that their visits aren't appreciated because they are - but they can't fulfil the spiritual role of a priest.

It's heartening to hear the stories of people here who *have* been on the receiving end of compassion and concern from the clergy. A few thoughtful and well-chosen words can make such a difference to someone who needs them, and likewise the absence of them can make a big difference in the other direction.

I'm still not getting the relevance of this thread to Viva Organ.

Perhaps I should answer this, seeing as I'm the OP. I started the thread in the Organ forum because it picked up on a post made elsewhere in the Organ forum so I thought many of the same readers would see it, and may not see it if it went in the cafe. If the mods feel it belongs in the cafe and choose to move it, that's fine by me. However, three people including two organists and a churchgoer have expressed a preference to keep it here. Therefore I would like to suggest that unless the mods choose to move it, it remains here and stays on topic.

No, I don't think it unreasonable, viewed in the abstract. But I do wonder whether, with all the other pressures which clergy now face, including declining church attendance (which decreases both financial and human resources available to assist the clergy in achieving the tasks they have to do), it is realistic to expect this level of proactivity.

I find it a little difficult to believe that clergy who aren't visiting are just sitting on their backsides twiddling their thumbs, to be honest. (The job isn't so well-paid as to attract people who are just in it for the money .) And I also find it fairly difficult to believe that they just don't care: the vocational assessment and training alone would tend to weed out those who didn't.

Which leaves the alternative that they don't have adequate time to do everything, and have - rightly or wrongly - put other tasks higher up their priority order. Based on all the clergy I know (which for various reasons is a LOT ), I am certain that, given enough time, most if not all clergy would happily be as proactive as you suggest. And whilst I can see the arguments for saying that visiting should come very high up the priority order, I still feel that what you are criticising here is likely to be an error of judgement (ie as to what should come first) by those who are well-intentioned rather than something which demonstrates a genuine lack of care.

(As an aside, I still feel that, in the case of your relative, it would be worth your while airing this issue with the vicar of her current parish. Forum members can be and no doubt are concerned about what you have described, but in terms of actually getting your relative the comfort she wants and which you want for her, we can't actually do anything... )

I think it would also be worth talking to the care home.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned on this thread is that it is actually the care home's responsibility to make sure that the social and spiritual needs of residents are met (It's one of the 12 activities of daily living which care plans are based on), but different care homes can take very different attitudes to religious matters. Clergy do not have an automatic right of entry to care homes. Some care homes will welcome visits of the sort you're talking about from clergy, others do have a policy of not allowing access unless the resident has explicitly requested it. Some care homes will display church info on notice boards or have fliers, but some do not allow any sort of religious publicity.

My current church has two care homes within it's geographic parish. One of these the church has good links with, there are people from the church who go in regularly to talk to or read to residents etc and although the clergy do not go there routinely a member of clergy would go if it was requested or if the person doing the visiting felt it was needed. The church has absolutely no contact with the other care home who have objected to church info being put through the letter box and told us (when we went out of the way to include them in our annual carol singing walk) to refrain from singing Christmas carols outside the home in the future. There may be residents in that care home who feel the same way as Skylark's aunt, but the church has no way of knowing that, or of finding out, due to the care home's policies.

For what it's worth, there can be many reasons for clergy not doing routine home visit's. Often it may simply be a lack of time, but there can be other reasons as well. One of my previous churches suspended all home visits to non-church members on police advice (it wouldn't be appropriate for me to go into the reasons here). I don't know if any non church members requested visits in this period, but if anyone did they would simply have been told that the church did not offer home visits. The church did not make this decision public because this could have comprised what the police were doing. In my current church, our previous vicar wasn't very good pastorally and he knew it. The bulk of the church's pastoral work was done by the full-time curate, the three part-time non-stipendary curates, the community worker or one of the authorised readers or pastoral assistants. Our current vicar is stronger pastorally, but most of this work is still done by other people and it would be impossible for the vicar to take it all on himself.

Nearly all pipe organs are to be found in churches. Most churhes have a pipe organ, or an electronic replacement.

Organists play in churches, and are therefore likely to have regular contact with clergy.

Many organists (and members of organist's families) are members of parochial church councils (PCC's). Some organists are also ordained preists. (I know of several who are).

Therefore the Organ forum provides a captive audience for those of us with this shared interest. Had this thread been posted in the Forum Cafe I doubt that most of us here would ever have found it.

SB