I can play a piece of music a hundred times but can never memorise it. Can someone tell me how to. How do concert pianists remember vast piano works??

normally as I play a piece over and over AND over again, I'll be able to memorise it...but sometimes e.g. when there's a long note or long periods of rest, I may have to learn it on paper.

When I was younger I suppose I memorised pieces by playing them over and over (only my favourites were memorised!). However, my aims have changed so I am now memorising the music as I learn it. As it turns out this has not been nearly as difficult as I initially thought it was going to be. I learn a phrase at a time, playing each hand separately and then playing them together to see how it is all fitting together (I find my left hand definitely needs to know what’s it doing – if it gets lost or my brain forgets it throws a spanner in the works!). Also I look at the different chords, scale patterns etc that move through the phrase (I write these onto the music), this in turn leads to the different shapes your hands are going to be making. Sing the different parts as well. Know the music well. So listen to a recording (more than once obviously) and really know how it sounds. So far, memorising this way is turning out to be a far more secure way of committing the music to memory - probably because I’m not just relying on my fingers to remember! Then, of course, you have to try out your memory by playing to others. This nerve-racking experience (for some) will certainly show you where your weaknesses are!!!

I’d love to hear how others memorise.

Hi,

I was not required to memorize my pieces when i did my piano dip in another board of exam more than 5 years ago, and now, i still can memorize most parts of the piece (perfect memorization have to be practised of course).

I guess it is because i played it for many many times, actually i practice piano every day, that helps me memorize it unknowingly....

I'm not sure if that is the way ppl memorize pieces???

I agree with Ursie about really getting to know the music...not just being able to play it.

People learn things different ways. My son can play many pieces by memory after just playing it through a few times. I, on the other hand can play a piece 100 times and still haven't got a clue how to do the first bar by heart!

I think the music transfers to my fingers and completely bypasses my brain



I've found that if I want to memorize a piece, I have to really look at it....not just notice the runs, but where they start, where they end etc. I seem to know this when I'm playing from the music, but it's not really in my memory...I'm using other visual aids to help. Once I can really see what I have to do, really understand it, I put the music on a seat beside me and try it...phrase by phrase.

Seems to work for me except I tend to forget to keep the pieces up. Never get around to getting them in my long term memory...except Fur Elise of course which seems to stay with me forever

It's a lot simpler if you follow 3 steps when playing a piece:

Play it many times
Record yourself playing it, and listen, a lot
Look at the manuscript and try and remember how it looks. Don't do this while near a piano so you're not tempted to play bits!

I have taught pupils to memorise music and the only thing that ever seems to work is if I take the book away as they play a piece. They then carry on a short way and realise that they know more than they think, try doing this. The hardest part to remember is always the first few bars.

Playing a piece over and over is ok for memorising but it tends to give mainly finger memory which is not infallible, and if it gives out in times of stress (ie performance) you have nothing to fall back on.

Try really analysing the music, looking at the chord progressions and inversions which can give you anchors within the music so you do not rely solely on your fingers. Also pick up the piece at different stages within it for example if you are memorising a Sonate start at the beginning of the second subject with the left hand only, then play the melody with one finger which makes sure you really know the notes and not just the patterns.

Hope this helps

I have the opposite problem.
Once I have learned a piece of music, usually 3 - 4 times over, it's locked in !

I don't know how it happened. I never tried to.
Once I start playing, my fingers just go into auto pilot and completely bypass my brain !

This frustrates my teacher and myself because when I get stuck I can't find where I'm up to on the sheet.

At grade 1, I could play 1st movement Moonight sonata and Chopin Nocturne E flat major all memorised. Now I have just passed grade 2 and learning Pathetique alongside my grade 3 pieces.

It's the same with my violin music too. I hadn't played this certain piece for years but when I came to play it the other week it was as though I only played it yesterday.

Is it better to memorise by analysing it or is finger memory just as safe ?
I don't think I really have a choice. It seems to be the way I learn music.

Fiona

The problem with finger memory is if it does give way mid performance, (I am memorising Pathetique in full at the moment. ) Especially in big works with similar subjects then if you do not have the analysis memory then you have little or no hope of finishing the piece, whereas at least the analysis gives you an anchor.

I have a Student with similar abilities to you and I have no hope of getting him to concentrate on the lower grades, so we are studying more complex pieces of music along side easier ones, and pulling up the scales etc with a view to doing the higher grades only eventually.

Best of luck

Thanks for that Digby. I'm glad I'm not on my own !

How will your student go on with sight reading at higher grades or are they good at sight reading generally?

My teacher always jokes that I should start at G5 and work backwards !

Trouble with me is I'm not too great on sight reading. That would really let me down.

Thanks

Fiona

The same with my student, the sight reading is probably the area we spend the most time on in lessons, because he can harmonically analyse a piece very quickly he tries to do this with sight reading, which you don't have time for in an exam. He also will not play a wrong note without correcting it.

Try getting the rhythm first - the Kodaly technique is good for that (Ta, Ta, Ti Ti, Ta for crotchet, crotchet quaver quaver crotchet), then really get used to looking at the shape of the music with the intervals which is quicker than identifying every note as you need the first one then can just to up a third down a fifth etc.

Just reread your first entry and in your position I would make a conscious effort to memorise and don't have the music open at all once you have as then you won't have the losing your place problem,

QUOTE (Digby @ Feb 19 2004, 06:06 PM)

Hi Digby,

Wondered if you could tell me about the student you mentioned.

Do they have trouble reading some notes in a passage ? What I mean is do they sometimes mistake say a B for a G or something similar ?
I know we can all do that, but I mean a bit more frequently.

If not, have you come across a similar problem ?

I am asking this because of a comment my teacher made the other day.

He said he couldn't understand why I play a different note to the one on paper (like above) when he knows I know the note names. This happens even on GII pieces. He then went on to ask if I had ever suffered with Dyslexia (?)
I haven't. I can only assume that he's thinking of this being related to dyspraxia. I don't particularly think I am as I can play some diffcult pieces as well as struggle with easy ones.

I'm ok playing a piece once I learnt it and don't refer to the music any longer. But I know I seem to have a bit of a problem when I read and learn music initially. Worrying thing is, it doesn't seem to be improving.

Regards,

Fiona

QUOTE

I'm ok playing a piece once I learnt it and don't refer to the music any longer. But I know I seem to have a bit of a problem when I read and learn music initially. Worrying thing is, it doesn't seem to be improving.

Hi Fiona,

As we were discussing earlier I had a similar problem. The thing that I found the most helpful improving my ability to play pieces the 'normal' way (i.e. actually reading them) is to play a lot of easier pieces and fewer harder ones; not just sightreading them but actually playing them to the point that they're fluent. By easier I mean pieces that are around the grade level that you're actually playing at. I do still find that by the time I've finshed playing them the pieces will be memorised, that's difficult to avoid; however if you start to attempt to put it hands together before you've memorised it hands seperatley then that delays remembering it a little and make sure you never allow yourself to do a hard section by remembering it and then looking at your hands to play it more easily (I don't know if you would do that that's a trait of mine anyway and forces remembering...). Not only does this reinforce the way that (I think) most people play but you get more practice at reading which isn't sightreading. I found that only playing harder pieces did make the problem worse since the only way that I could learn them was to remember them thus reinforcing the way I'd always learnt pieces.

If it's looking at your hands that's causing you to not look at the music then this might help: prop the piano lid open with a match box or something so that it's just open enough to put your hands in but you can't see them; that way you've got nothing better to look at than the music!

Just a few thoughts I hope they're helpful; I don't know if it addresses the issue that you're concerned with though.

QUOTE (Fiona @ Apr 4 2004, 11:48 AM)

if I had ever suffered with Dyslexia (?) I haven't. I can only assume that he's thinking of this being related to dyspraxia.

Thanks for that.

Am I just being paranoid then or do you think he may have a point ?

I thought it was just the way I learnt music.

Fiona

Hi Fiona

No that particular student doesn't suffer with reading notes wrong, but I do have students who do and its not an uncommon thing.

If you read the shape, intervals etc, rather than each individual note this can help and will also make your sight reading alot quicker.

Memorising pieces varies from person to person I guess. Some may manage to, while same may not.

Some are just born to memorise, esp concert pianists!

I realise, esp for exam pieces, I manage to memorise them in matter of weeks for a long piece.

It might be the repititions that we do over and over again over a few weeks such that somehow, our fingers are just too used to, an inclined to hitting the notes subconcsiously without us even knowing I guess.

QUOTE

Am I just being paranoid then or do you think he may have a point ?

Before answering this question I must make the disclaimer that I am in no way qualified to do so this is just my opinion. I have to say it had me thinking the other day too but I came to the following conclusions.

I would think that it's more likely that the problems you are experiencing are not a result of an underlying problem but just your brain responding to the way it is asked to do things. If one learns something in a certain way ones brain adapts to be better at doing things in that way (neural pathways are created to make it easier to do the things that way; hence learning and improving); so, in the case of you learning pieces by memorising, your brain is learning to learn in that way which means you will get better at learning in that way which doesn't necessarily reinforce the ability to learn in a different way. Sometimes the different things are managed by different areas of the brain so can be completely seperate (I don't know if that is the case here though).

If you spend a lot of time learning pieces that you have memorised (in my experience most of the work is getting hands to do what they should, not actually reading music) then less of your practise is spent reading music than someone who learns in the 'normal' way: so even if you've done the same amount of practise as someone else you may have less reading experience than they do.

So in summary I think it's more likely to be a result of the way you're learning: I don't know if there's anything wrong with/better about learning in that way (other than perhaps you'll have to work harder at sightreading) only a teacher with experience of both ways of learning could answer that question. I think that the fact that you can play harder pieces suggests that it is unlikely that you have a problem with coordination.

I hope this makes sense and offers you some reassurance.

Thank you very much for the replies

It does offer me some reassurance and helps me feel like I am probably just over reacting to the comment made.

Like you say, the coordination is there.

I think that it is my fingers that don't respond as quickly as my brain reads music. Some kind of delay between reading and pressing the note.
I probably panic that split second of reading and pressing and get the wrong note- usually one close to the correct one.

Digby, I will try and look at the shape of the music more and take note of the intervals etc. That will make a big difference.

Thanks again.

Fiona

i don't think there's really one way to memorize music but here's what i do:

apart from going over the piece again and again, what i think is the key is being able to live w/ the music w/thin u. i know that probably sounds weird - but, it's true. u can't "know" anything unless u learn to accept it and live w/ it in ur blood. listen to recordings of ur piece. play it section by section. ask ppl (teacher, friends, family) to help u by giving u reviews, etc. live w/ it.

Please please stop it with the w/'s - it's very hard to read what you're saying

QUOTE (DavidMusic @ Apr 13 2004, 10:36 PM)

Please please stop it with the w/'s - it's very hard to read what you're saying

Yes!!!!!!!

w/ means "with"
what's so difficult about reading that?
this is the 20th century - if you're talking on a computer, you might as well learn that chatting online is mostly abbreviated.

This isn't chatting online. This isn't MSN messenger, where I use plenty of contractions. This is a forum attached to one of the top Academic Music Institutions in the world.

QUOTE (obvious_outlawed_pianist @ Apr 16 2004, 05:04 PM)

w/ means "with"

Do you find it saves time typing w/? I have tried it and find that I can type "with" quicker than w/. Probably because I'm not used to using the / key.

QUOTE (Fiona @ Feb 19 2004, 04:20 PM)

Once I have learned a piece of music, usually 3 - 4 times over, it's locked in ! I don't know how it happened. I never tried to. Once I start playing, my fingers just go into auto pilot and completely bypass my brain !

yes my fingers do the same sometimes!! In one of my grade 4 pieces my fingers go into auto pilot!! i read the notes but my fingers move quicker!! the other day my teacher said pick it up from bar 41 or whatever and i couldnt!!!lol

Nat

mine also do that! Its cool and bad at the same time! It drives my teacher mad, lol.
Naomi xxxx

lol its funny!!!

i look at the music but i dont actually go "oh there is a B- finger play a B please"!!!! does that make sense!!

i can usually play through not a problem but if i do make a mistake im just completely lost!! lets hope that doesnt happen in the exam!!lol

Nat

Lol.Sometimes I feel that we think the examiners are out to get us though and really, they aren't.I made a mistake with one of my pieces,and just said, can i start again please and he was great about it, and i came out with merit, 4 marks off distinction.If only i could control my fingers!
Naomi xxxx

ye they are not out to get us but i usually think that!!! yes im slowly learnig to control my fingers!!

sometimes my right hand fingers go faster than left hand. Im playin Mozart sonata in A at the moment and in the 3rd variation, both hands are playing constant semiquavers but my right hand gets carried away and goes takes off!! then i get all muddled coz im not at the same bar with each hand!!!

Nat

Right now I am learning (just for fun) Ob-la-di Ob-la-da by the beatles.their stuff is so easy but the finger change is tricky, plus its great to sing along, if ur a huge fan like me!
Naomi xxxx

yeah i quite like the Beatles. we are studying their music as part of our as music course so i kind of have to like them!

Nat

So are we, or one song, A Day in the Life, which is one of my faves.The only thing that brings them down is their drug use, but their music is so amazing, yet so simple.Best in pop history, along with Donny Osmond, lol.What songs of theirs are you studying?
Naomi xxxx

we are studying a lot of their songs coz its all we are studying, so here goes!!
A day in the life
Lucy in the sky with diamonds]
With a little help from my friends
Sgt peppers..
love me do
please please me
in my life
Nowhere man
Drive my car
michelle
Norwegian wood

i think thats it!!!lol
I like most of them really but esp with a little help...anda day in the life!!!
i like some of their other songs like let it be and yesterday oh i love them!!!!

Nat

omg i adore those songs but my faves right now are here comes the sun, Ob-la-di Ob-la-da and octopus's garden.i really like neil diamond too right now and hilary duff, and hayley westenra.
Naomi xxxx

i like hilary duff too!!! im in love with the song fields of gold at the mo!! i bought the piano book for the very best of eva cassidy!!

Have you got katie melua's album-her song she wrote dedicated to Eva Cassidy in my opinion is amazing!!

Nat

I sang fields of gold as my solo for the talent show!
I love the Katie Melua album and far away voice is amazing, although the whole album is.
Hilary Duff, I like because she is my age and her music is rocky pop, not trashy pop. I admire a lot of people my age or close enough, especially classical:Charlotte, Hayley, Myleene and a newcomer Becky Taylor, who has returned, and of course, Josh Groban!
Naomi xxxx

I love talent shows - I always enter adult ones, and I sing.

Unfortunately I have to be very careful about singing - my voice can't cope with much, and has a very distinct 2 styles. Since one is bluesy growling, my voice usually gives up after 5 minutes.

And my other type of singing is too sexy for me to do in public, last time I did it men, women, children, grannies, everyone was chatting me up.

No, honestly.

Edit: Ok, sorry, couldn't carry through with it. That last paragraph about chatting up was utterly made up

you should send me a recording of you singing it - i would love to hear you as its one of my fave songs of all time it sometimes makes me cry!!

yes the whole album is amazing!!

who is Josh Groban?!

Nat xx

They're not particularly good singers though. Just attractive.

They are good singers, for their age though.
Naomi xxxx

P.S. VERY amusing about being chatted up

yes very amusing!!!lol

Nat

Have either of you ever sang in a band? Just out of interest?
Naomi xxxx

Please stop it, you two are feeding my ego.

Yes, I've sung in a variety of bands (like two, and once each)

i used to sing in a band with my 2 best mates years ago. it was just a bit of fun in the house!i played piano and sang a bit, the others sang, adn i tried to teach one of them chords on the piano!
ive sang the lead with the schools singing group with obviously a few backnig singers, drums, and gutiar

what about you?

Nat

I'm in a pop and rock band, and gospel choir and county choir. Then several other kinds, lol.
Naomi xxxx

kool!!! id love to be in a proper band!!

have you noticed that the topic "the art of memorising music" has turned into a discussion between me , you and David about anything other than memorising music!!lol

Nat

Yes, but I feel like I've made two friends on this board as opposed to being ignored like before!
Naomi xxxx

yay!!! your my friend!!!!wahoo!!!!

feel free to send me pm's or emails about anything!!

Nat xx

Sure I will.Except, like not tonight lol.I'll have to go soon.I'll wait until I'm told.David has disappeared again, lol. You sound a lot like me.Except different instruments, lol, bar piano.
Naomi xxxx