NCO audition & music scholarship audition done and results awaited and depending on the outcome to some extent, tentatively looking at the next thing suggested by the music teacher which is the Saturday morning music lessons at the London music schools.

I had a look at the websites of RAM, ACM, Guildhall and Trinity and have applied for their prospectuses and open days. I also had a chat with a lovely lady from RAM whom I asked what a realistic standard was for entry into the Primary Academy was. The website states that it is for children aged 8 to 12 and that a minimum standard of grade 4 or 5 distinction is required. She stressed that they were looking for children with potential and that this takes into account how long they have been playing the instrument for. She said that actually it was the youngest pupils who tended to be at the highest grades - I guess these will be the musical prodigies who started their instruments at a young age. The older ones may only have been learning for a couple of years and this is taken into account when assessing potential so all hope is not lost!

Anyway, I had a good look round the forum for discussions about the various schools but they were some years back. I was just wondering if anyone could give me any up to date information about any aspect of this topic whatsoever.

The RAM course is good in one sense because it is only in the afternoons so might be a gentle introduction to Saturday music rather than doing a full 8-5 expected at some of the others (although you would learn so much more in a full day of course).

Has anyone been round the open days recently, have children who attend, have children who are applying? Is it very difficult to get in? Have they made huge amounts of progress since starting? What sort of practice timetable are you given? Any thoughts are welcome.

Daughter started RNCM in September so not one of the opportunities you are looking at.

What we like about it is the support, she's a Junior rather than being in the Foundation section so a full day on Saturday.

It's great having lessons, Theory, Aural and Composition all on the one day. The staff are excellent and the atmosphere really good. She's made lots of friends in the short time she's been there. This term she is doing an exam not on one the instruments she learns at Juniors. They have given her access to aural on the same basis as those that are taking exams through the department. She may even get to perform on one of her other instruments in the Composers Concert early next year.

The audition was fairly relaxed, they told her which instruments they wanted to hear and then made an offer. We did get the chance to slightly change what they offered.

There's no practice timetable as such, she's just expected to practice. It surprised me a little that they encourage students to take all the opportunities on offer wherever they come from.

I always thought the teaching would be excellent, after all it costs a lot of money, other than that it was an unknown quantity. It wasn't an easy decisiion to move away form what we had but so far it has been the right one.

I hope someone comes along and tells you about the London schools soon.

My experience is a bit indirect more from enquiries than actual results. My daughter plays the cello passing grade 4 in her last year of primary school (though she is summer birthday which affects the cut off dates for some things actually putting her in the age group of the the year below). She was offered a pro corda place but not a NCO one (though she was told that her playing standard was good enough, she needed to improve sight reading). She was offered a music scholarship at one independent school and was first reserve at another, both had good music departments but were not the top tier.

We investigated Trinity but did not audition. We were told that they expected grade 5 (at 11/12 ?) We know someone at the Royal College who tried to persuade her to audition (as they are involved in the suditions), in his opinion she would have got a place.

I don't know if this helps a lot. I do think that the competion varies quite a bit from instrument to instrument and also from year to year. For instance pro corda were short of cellos, made an effort to seek them out and now seem to have a surplus (at least at primary/junior level). Nevertheless I think that it seems easier to get places as a cellist than violinist, probably even easier with the viola. Also a lot of competion for flutes and clarinets but double reed players are scarce. Of course these comments MAY apply less to the colleges as I'm less sure whther they have the same need to balance instruments.

My daughter is at Birmingham. She was 10 when she got her place with a pass at Grade 3 Flute plus Grade 1 Piano.

It is obvious in our case that they went for potential rather than attainment.
She is in her third year now and loves it. The teaching is fantastic. The performance opportunities are fabulous and she has made lots of friends.
We don't have a practice timetable but it is obvious when sufficient progress is being made. Our only area of difficult with practice has proved to be singing. My daughter had lessons because she couldn't sing rather than because she could. It is hard to practice something you are finding very difficult. Gradually things have improved and she is going to take her Grade 2 in December.
I don't find that there is unbearable pressure on us. A disappointing Grade 5 Flute result was not seen as a disaster, we just moved on.
I understand that some parents are very competitive but I've been lucky and only come across lovely children with lovely parents.
In terms of how much practice my daughter does it is now an hour a day of flute, half an hour of piano, 10 minutes of singing and sax and clarinet when we can manage it.
I'm sure you child will love the Junior Conservatoire.
Dora

Well done Dora flying the flag for the BC!Its just as good as anywhere in London and the other provinces1

Unfortunately, anywhere beyond London is impossible for us to get to because of where we live.

I'm sure the London Schools are also excellent.
Dora

I am a bit biased because I teach at Junior Guildhall on Saturdays!

However, I'm sorry, I can't tell you anything about it from a parent's point of view...

One more question. What do the parents of younger children do while waiting for their children to finish (for those who have travelled a fair distance)? Do you have a day out in London?

Many parents do that. Many sit around a chat.
I sat in on all of my daughter's lessons for the first two years. I realise this is unusual but I am convinced it helped. This year I sit in on only part of her flute lesson but I still sit in on her singing and piano lessons.
I also help out on the reception desk, I work for the university although not the Conservatoire, and do whatever needs to be done including helping other children with their maths homework and so on. This year I plan to organise sweat shirts, I think they are called hoodies now, for Juniors who want them.
Dora

Join the Friends group, bring your knitting, go window shopping (or real shopping!), help in the tuck shop, go to art gallieries with other parents. Find a quiet room (impossible) and have a snooze or read your magazines, paint your nails, go get your hair done, do 'lunch' with old friends, work on a crossword..thats just for starters

That is what you get from Junior Academy. They are responsive and helpful and kind - and also particularly well organized. Students are expected to work hard, but it is not a scary place to be at all. I won't add more because my daughter joined at 16 so her experience although good is not relevant to you; others are better placed to give info.

Good luck whatever you decide

How lovely. I am beginning to sense a real feeling of community and belonging.

Open day booked at RCM, RAM's prospectus coming out this week, Guildhall's brochure has come through. The only one I haven't heard back from now is Trinity.

Would you recommend applying to all four? Presumably they are not all that easy to get into? If one is rejected one year, can one reapply for the following year?

Thanks for all your help and information so far, also to the people who have PM'd me. Please keep any comments coming as I am sure there are other parents like me reading this as well.

It is obviously up to you how many you apply for. My daughter was only 10 and got quite stressed about it even though I absolutely presented it as a bit of fun. I don't think she would have enjoyed 4 auditions but your child might love it.
We were told in advance, because I asked, that there were three possible outcomes. Yes, no and try again next year.
On the day my daughter was absolutely amazing and I was dreading a try again next year result because I couldn't imagine how she could top what she did but fortunately we got a yes.

I don't know you, your child or your circumstances so I wouldn't presume to advise you. I think a strategy which might work for some people would be to apply to one and see what happened. If it were a no you would perhaps be able to see what needed to be done to achieve more success the following year.

You could apply for the lot and see how things are after the first audition.

Another thing you could do is ask for a consultation lesson with a teacher at one or more of the JCs. In fact that is exactly what I would do in your position. It really would be money very well spent. I didn't know you could do that or I would have done it.

Have fun.
Dora

Thanks Dora

I have a child who would love 4 auditions! But 4 no s would be disheartening but on the other hand would probably be telling you something so might be useful.

I read about the consulation lessons here but have only found official reference to them in the Guildhall brochure but it says you can only have one after being offered a place - I guess so you can see whether you want to take up a place rather than before you actually audition.

Does anyone know differently?

We are also in the process of considering applying for a junior place for my son who is 11. We will go to the open days and then he will need to decide whether, or which, he would like to apply for. I think that auditions at all 4 is definately off the cards for him - if only because of the cost. The Royal College charges £35 for the application so I'm guessing the others are about the same. We will be encouraging him to think very hard about which one he prefers as that is not an amount to be taken lightly.

[quote name='soapbox' date='Nov 24 2009, 05:36 PM' post='898209']

[/quote]

We are also in the process of considering applying for a junior place for my son who is 11. We will go to the open days and then he will need to decide whether, or which, he would like to apply for. I think that auditions at all 4 is definately off the cards for him - if only because of the cost. The Royal College charges £35 for the application so I'm guessing the others are about the same. We will be encouraging him to think very hard about which one he prefers as that is not an amount to be taken lightly.
[/quote]

You can get a really good feel of the place by going to the Open Day and speaking to the members of the staff. There is also an option to have your child 'shadow' an existing student of similar age and on same instrument, which meant sitting in on some of the classes and participating in ensembles where possible. This could give them a further insight into how things work. I know that this is available at the Royal Colleges but not sure about the others.

At least that's what my daughter did and she immediately knew that its where she wanted to be. We looked at the others too but my daughter knew where she felt most comfortable by spending a day there. She also started when she was 11 and its her second year at Junior Conservatoire. She has come leaps and bounds and the progress is really visible. In fact, she has now been offered a place at a specialist music school, and has ambitions of going on to do music after school. This wouldn't have been possible I feel if she hadn't had this opportunity. She cannot wait until Saturdays and some of her best friends are here. Its also seeing the senior and more advanced students that has been so inspiring for her too. Also, she's grown more confident as a performer with opportunities to perform solos as well as in ensembles.

As for the parents, its a long drive for us, early mornings and a big commitment as a family. Its certainly a community and there are enough parents sitting around chatting and working on their computers to bounce ideas off each other. Also, you can get involved in the Parents associations if you so wish.

It has really worked for us.

[quote name='a mum' date='Nov 24 2009, 05:50 PM' post='898216']
[quote name='soapbox' date='Nov 24 2009, 05:36 PM' post='898209']

[/quote]

We are also in the process of considering applying for a junior place for my son who is 11. We will go to the open days and then he will need to decide whether, or which, he would like to apply for. I think that auditions at all 4 is definately off the cards for him - if only because of the cost. The Royal College charges £35 for the application so I'm guessing the others are about the same. We will be encouraging him to think very hard about which one he prefers as that is not an amount to be taken lightly.
[/quote]

You can get a really good feel of the place by going to the Open Day and speaking to the members of the staff. There is also an option to have your child 'shadow' an existing student of similar age and on same instrument, which meant sitting in on some of the classes and participating in ensembles where possible. This could give them a further insight into how things work. I know that this is available at the Royal Colleges but not sure about the others.

At least that's what my daughter did and she immediately knew that its where she wanted to be. We looked at the others too but my daughter knew where she felt most comfortable by spending a day there. She also started when she was 11 and its her second year at Junior Conservatoire. She has come leaps and bounds and the progress is really visible. In fact, she has now been offered a place at a specialist music school, and has ambitions of going on to do music after school. This wouldn't have been possible I feel if she hadn't had this opportunity. She cannot wait until Saturdays and some of her best friends are here. Its also seeing the senior and more advanced students that has been so inspiring for her too. Also, she's grown more confident as a performer with opportunities to perform solos as well as in ensembles.

As for the parents, its a long drive for us, early mornings and a big commitment as a family. Its certainly a community and there are enough parents sitting around chatting and working on their computers to bounce ideas off each other. Also, you can get involved in the Parents associations if you so wish.

It has really worked for us.
[/quote]

Thankyou for the advice about shadowing. That sounds like a really good idea, I will definately follow that up. Glad to hear that your daughter is enjoying it so much. I really think that it would suit my son and all his music teachers have encouraged him to pursue it. All seems a bit daunting at this stage though...

Bit of devils advocate here, but if you think that £35 x 4 is a lot then have you considered the fees for the year, plus the costs of travelling every Saturday and most definately upgrading the instrument. Whilst there are bursaries and scholarships, these are always means tested and can be quite disappointing in the first year, unless your child is playing a shortage instrument! If it is a regular instrument like Violin, you are very unlikely to receive much in the way of a bursary from either the junior conservatoires or the other organistations eg MBF, AYM or Future Talent etc.

Please do your maths first before you undertake this. Include travel and lunch, (plus yours if you are accompanying him) instrument repairs/insurance, upgrades and even concert clothes/shoes and what are your other children going to do on that Saturday? If you have pull out because you cant afford it that, IMO, even worse for the child.

Invest, and believe me it is an investment, in a CONSULTATION LESSON. Ask the Secretary/Administrator of the Junior Department and they will be so happy to arrange one. Currently they are about £70 ph, and you can sit in and take notes of the critque.

I have had one daughter at junior Trinity and currently one at the jRAM. This topic comes up regularly on the Forum, read all the posts, there is a lot of very good advice/information here.

If you do choose one to audition for make sure its for the teacher, and that your child will be happy there

Thanks for your advice Ayshah. Yes, we have considered the costs - all costs, which is why we are being circumspect about how many auditions we can fund. It all takes money away from the pot for fees. This year he has auditioned for NCO but if he gets into a junior dept he won't be able to do that next year. We won't be able to fund a junior dept and NCO! For us, it is all about making choices within our financial constraints.

We were approached by a tutor from RAM last year after she heard him play in a different capacity. She has offered help in the run up to an audition and we will take her up on that but we are trying to be very honest with our son that we are not in the position to just keep shelling out money. I feel that it is important for him to realise that although we are prepared to put ourselves out to help him, neither of us are in well paid jobs and there is an end to what we can do. Having said that, we will try and sort anything that is necessary. So far he has been lucky, he is a child that people seem to want to help. He has been lent (free of charge) a good instrument by someone because he likes how my son plays and his teachers make a lot of time for him.

This isn't something that we are going into blind and yes we do get shocked by the increasing costs but I'm always optimistic that we can sort it somehow. But that does mean saying where our boundaries are. I really don't think that it is too much to expect our son to make a choice of colleges before applying. I don't believe that he should have everything that he wants - just everything that he needs.

I didnt mean to sound as though you hadnt thought about it. But I have met parents who have been told that their child is wonderfully talented. They get accepted into the junior departments and the parents subsequently struggle to meet the fees. Most often they expect a substantial bursary and are quite shocked when it is only a couple hundred pounds. Plus the cost of travelling goes up and then the fridge breaks down

Music should not be elitist, but the fees are a fact. The fact is you will make sacrifices within your household budget because you are a parent who wants to support your child. You May begin to think that music is not what he wants but what he needs. Your child wont have a clue what they want for some time, but as a parent it starts seeping under your skin E.g. he needs that new bow for £500, he just cant manage with the old one for £100, lets find the money..somehow kinda thing Believe me it happens.

Then the child says that they arent interested in music any more!

Hi Soapbox

I'm pretty sure (although not 100%) that you can have a taster day at junior Guildhall before spending any money applying and I know children have found it useful - even if it has meant deciding that a junior department is not for them! so it might be worth finding out whether your son can go for a morning/day before applying.

There is money around for help towards costs but it can mean some work for parents to find it -however I think that if the departments are keen to have the children, they can be helpful pointing you in the right direction. I definitely agree with Ayshah and Dora -invest in some consultation lessons and then follow the teacher and not the college.

Good luck with whatever you decide -

[quote name='Ayshah' date='Nov 24 2009, 06:45 PM' post='898238']
[quote name='soapbox' post='898209' date='Nov 24 2009, 05:36 PM']
If it is a regular instrument like Violin, you are very unlikely to receive much in the way of a bursary from either the junior conservatoires or the other organistations eg MBF, AYM or Future Talent etc.


[/quote]

Just wanted to comment on this that although its true that the 'rare' instruments receive more support, and violins are often over-subscribed, we've been quite lucky in that my daughter, who has violin as her first instrument, has support from the junior conservatoire towards fees, and has also received generous support from a couple of charities. So, I think that if there is a clear demonstration of talent, potentiol and need, it is possible to receive support for violinists too.

We have discussed this with our daughter.
I ask for her to commit to a year at a time. The deal is we sign the cheques and she practices.
If she turns round next week and says she doesn't want to go back next year that is fine with me. Actually I might be a bit fed up because I've just paid for a new flute but I'd get over it.
I hope she always enjoys making music but it is her life.
Honestly the benefits she has received from the last 3 years go well beyond her improved ability to play. It has been worth every penny we have spent.
Dora

[quote name='a mum' date='Nov 24 2009, 08:18 PM' post='898270']
[quote name='Ayshah' date='Nov 24 2009, 06:45 PM' post='898238']
[quote name='soapbox' post='898209' date='Nov 24 2009, 05:36 PM']
If it is a regular instrument like Violin, you are very unlikely to receive much in the way of a bursary from either the junior conservatoires or the other organistations eg MBF, AYM or Future Talent etc.


[/quote]

Just wanted to comment on this that although its true that the 'rare' instruments receive more support, and violins are often over-subscribed, we've been quite lucky in that my daughter, who has violin as her first instrument, has support from the junior conservatoire towards fees, and has also received generous support from a couple of charities. So, I think that if there is a clear demonstration of talent, potentiol and need, it is possible to receive support for violinists too.
[/quote]

I second that. And in this quarter we're not talking about a prodigy - just a regular hard-working student.

Is it so hard to get grants for the junior departments then? My understanding is that the English junior departments are all part of the government's Centres for Advanced Training scheme. My children belong to a different CAT, still music-related but not a junior department, and the National Grant scheme is much more generous than any other music bursary/grant scheme I have encountered.

Yes, it is still means-tested but the cut-offs are not as mean as other schemes. I think you still get something, albeit only a few hundred pounds a year, if your household income is over £60,000 pounds a year. Certainly we get a very generous grant and we are by no means on the breadline. I know many families where one parent is a higher-rate taxpayer (I think in these cases the other parent isn't working) and they are still getting a grant of £2,000 a year or so.

Just had a look at the National Grants page - http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/mds/national_grants.shtml - and even with a household income of up to £55,668 you are still getting a grant of £1053 which is almost one third of the fees. And the household income figure is calculated after you deduct £1830 for each dependent child in the family.

I know when we first discussed the possibility of our children applying for this CAT, the financial implications nearly put us off totally. But when we looked into it it wasn't as bad as we thought. It's still tough financially managing all the implications of having musical children, but there is more help out there than we initially thought. We certainly wouldn't be able to do it without the National Grant system.

My daughter is a first study oboist we had a serious decline in income after she had gained a place. We were very lucky in getting a scholarship for half the fees. Two charities, one with the support of the junior department, funded the rest.

There is money out there for children who work hard and have the right CV. It does take a lot of hard work and patience. Word of advice don't bank on getting anything form Future Talent. The others are all very approachable. You just have to be careful as some of the closing dates are before or close to auditions. You may want to apply before you actually have the place.

We have also managed to get more than half the funding for a Cor Anglais in the last couple of months. With help from the Music Service Iwe ended up paying just over a quater of the price. It does take a lot of hard work and committment.

Can I also say that we've had no pressure to upgrade instruments. Oboe there isn't a need but I did wonder how the Hanson Sax would be reacted to. The JD didn't expect a Cor the "need" came from elsewhere.

Swellbox I think you have a very sensible approach. Work on your son's CV, look for opportunities that will stand out (these don't have to cost a fortune).

Daughter is still settling in to her life as a Junior she's had an enormous amount of support in the short time she's been there. There are lots of opportunities that I'm sure she will be offered/seek to take part in as she learns the workings and gains experience.

On the money front two possibilities to consider - in tandem. One is the CYM run by London Local Authorities. It offers a very similar programme to the junior conservatoirres (based at Moreley College on a Saturday). I'm pretty sure that its cheaper, the facilites are less swish but the training is very good and kids certainly go on to be professional musicians (or not as the case mayt be).

Secondly I'm not sure what age your child is but if you get a place at Haberdashers (at New Cross) based on musical aptitude (its a state school) they pay all your fees.

Yes I agree that there is money out there. Applying for funding is an art in itself, but you learn as you go along. Its is hard work watching out for deadlines and getting the references within the required time every year with your own family financial statement to support your application. Most JD will have a list of organisations that you can approach. The JD will give some funding but only partial. It is rare to be totally funded.T hey want to give as many applicants as they can, so give most applicants a little. So eventually you get a little here and a little there

Our eldest daughter got funding for her JD for a year from a Charity that now 12 years later, no longer exists! We wonder what happened! We have received some funds from the MBF several times for both children and surprise, just received a handsome sum from Future Talent for the youngest at jRAM. I have never applied to AYM, I could never get to the Headmistress for a reference by the appropriate deadline - so I stuck to ones that needed references from Music teacher and/or Head of Department.

As I said in an earlier post the fees are quite scary and all the extras like travelling add up, so do be sure before you say "yes lets go for this". You can also ask for a monthly direct debit so that you dont have a large sum to find..again you have to ask the JD administrator.


As to CYM, an excellent place, I highly recommend. My kids attended the holiday courses (xmas, Easter & summer). Youngest is currently a member of LSSO, London Schools Symphony Orchestra, the senior childrens London orchestra based at CYM.

Another state school with several music places and an outstanding music department, the Camden School for Girls in North London. 15 places in the mixed 6th Form and about 8 places in Year 7 for girls not in the catchment area. Auditions are pretty tough I understand. Quite a few of the music students there attend London JDs and are in the LSSO.

I'm really confused now. All these posts seem to be saying there is no funding for places at Junior Departments, and yet the government's own music & dance scheme website says the JDs are part of the National Grants scheme.

When my children got their places at another Centre for Advanced Training, they were automatically sent forms to apply for a National Grant. It seems as if everyone I know at this CAT except for one person gets a National Grant, ranging from several hundred pounds a year to full fees paid. Most of us seem to be getting grants of between half and two-thirds of fees paid, this is obviously means-tested but like I said earlier it is pretty generous compared to most things we have applied for.

So does this not happen at the JDs?

I don't know about other JD's but 30 grants to go around 200ish students is not a lot. The local CAT has an infinate amount of funding for a Dance program that isn't/wasn't up and running when I enquired about it. This is the only scheme it funds. Sounded dodgy to me.....

That's really weird, as far as I know our CAT doesn't have any limits on funding for grants, obviously they have their own budget for admin, running the scheme etc. But the grant system is all done centrally, anyone who gets offered a place gets sent a form and it's all done from there.

Each CAT is separate so only runs it's own programme, although they have to follow some similar guidelines in order to meet the National Grant criteria. So that's why your local one wouldn't be able to fund anything else. A lot of them have only been running for 2-3 years now, and I think a couple are in the process of getting off the ground. I know some children in another one local to me (a dance one funnily enough) and they have exactly the same funding system so that most people do qualify for help. Only those with pretty high family incomes don't qualify.

Something is very odd here, either the JDs aren't part of the National Grant scheme, in which case the government's websites need updating because they certainly state or imply the JDs belong in this scheme, or they are in it, in which case that needs to be clarified so more people can get help.

This is a quote from one of the relevant government pages:

" The Centres for Advanced Training (CATs) are organisations or consortia of organisations/partners that include existing Saturday provision at junior departments of music conservatoires and new weekend schools, after school hours and holiday courses for young musicians and dancers."

The National Grant pages seem to be saying that everyone at a CAT, which as above seems to include the JDs, is eligible for a grant as long as they meet income levels. There is no suggestion that there is a limited number of grants for each CAT, and certainly my own experience from the 2 CATs I know quite a bit about is that there is no limit.

Puzzling isn't it. It really is a minefield this funding business.

when I'm in work we don't qualify for a grant unfortunately, but it would have been nice to get some help when I was out of work for 4 months at the beginning of the year - the system is too bureaucratic to deal with fluctuations like that though.

Chris

I actually rang the Government number and got my information from them about the number of places given to JD's. I told them I thought it was discriminatory. You have to wait for a fund holder to leave befopre you can get funded. It all seems out of order to me especially if the rules are different according to area.

I did speak to the local CAT(maybe I should do so again) they told me they only existed for one Dance scheme.

We may not qualify for complete funding but we would get something.




Having been in a very similar position this year I totally agree.

I also feel basing awards on last years income instead of current financial situation is difficult when circumstances change dramatically.

Some of the JDs have funding available for all their places and others only have funding for a few places.