Hi everybody,

I am currently translating the website of a recorder maker. And there are some terms, which I am having a bit trouble with.

This time, it concerns the labium and block of the recorder. I would say "Its Labium is jutting, long and small." Does the word "jutting" fit in here? Would you know, what I mean?

What's the original language ? Can we have the source text ?

Er, surely labia can only be used as an anatomical term?

Do you mean Fipple? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipple) Labia is etymologically plausible, though as Æolienne points out, is likely to confuse/amuse

Ugh, I didn't realize that already the term labia could be a problem. I just thought about the term jutting.

But ... the original language is German.


This actually is, what wikipedia says about it:




The term fipple is used only for the block. But the Labium actually means more than that. EDIT: Its the complete carved part in the head of the recorder.

Can't you just call it the lip? That's what the School Recorder Book calls it, IIRC.

Well, no, actually I had by now a look on other recorder makers homepages. They use the term labium as well since it is the correct technical term.

But the term jutting I used correctly? Or not?

Can I just check - are you a native English speaker ? If you aren't then it's not really the done thing in the translation world to translate into a language that isn't your own - one should always provide translation into one's native tongue, rather than out of it.

Are you a professional translator?

Allan

** Edit - I've just realised that this message sounds somewhat accusatory - it's not meant to be at all! I'm just trying to find out where you're coming at this project from - if you're qualified to translate, and if you are why you're being asked to translate the wrong way if you're not a native English speaker - hope that's clearer!**

Because I make recorders myself and since there aren't that many who speak the way I do in both languages, although as you have submised, English is not my native, I do, however, know most of the technical terms in both languages. Thus, the term labium was never at issue, although it was made one in this thread. The term jutting was, which usually isn't in my vocabulary. Not even my native one. Just don't use it in either language. So I have to ask.

Hi lemontree - I'm not sure about the word jutting either. Could you say projecting or sloping instead?

Sara

Projected sounds fine. Thank you very much!

Labium and fipple are both open to doubt - because different scholars use them to mean different things. My understanding of the term labium is the vibrating part of the head, but I have seen it used to mean the tip of the recorder too. (Labia, the anatomical term, is a plural so the objection to the use of labium doesn't apply). I would use the word "beak" if it is the entire head end - are you describing something like Denner's treble head, where the beak is rather narrow and sculpted out? And I agree, although jutting is a term you would use say for architecture, I can't see any part of a recorder which juts as such.

Well, then, with the proviso that this kind of thing is best left to a professional translator who is a native speaker of the target language if you want a quality end product (I'm aware this is a bit ranty, but before specialising in linguistics I trained as a translator and people don't seem to be aware that it's a profession in its own right with its own methodology and techniques and that several years training are necessary to become a translator - speaking the language well is not enough - a professional translator could conceivably not even speak the source language all that well and still produce and excellen quality translation into his native tongue).

That said, here are some strategies to help you:

1) call a British recorder maker, explain your situation and ask them what they would use as a verb in that context
2) look on British recorder makers' websites and see what terms they use
3) be careful of your certainty of the word Labia - whilst it might be the correct term technically, it appears to have surprised and confused several recorder players on here. You need to be aware of who the end user of the translation is - if it's other recorder makers who will read it, then perhaps the technical terms are ok, if it's people looking to buy a recorder, then you need to use a term they will recognise and understand - that's part of the art of rendering a good translation.

For a translation to be good, it has to read as if it were never written in any other language than English (which, I'm sorry, is unlikely if you aren't a native speaker - you clearly have excellent English, but there's a very large chance that your text will sound a bit 'off' once you finish it) and, perhaps even more importantly, it must successfully communicate the idea of the original to the intended end-user - if the end-user doesn't understand it (i.e. writing in a language that is correct but too technical, for example) then, irrespective of how well the translation has been written - it's a failure.

I hope these solutions will be of help to you - if you're considering making a regular thing of translating recorder related texts (and there's certain to be a market for such things) - I'd suggest some training in translation, and learning to only do it from English into German (if that's your native tongue).

I can highly recommend the book 'Becoming a translator' (sorry don't have the author to hand) - it's very interesting. From there you may be able to follow a course at a local uni, or via the Institute of Linguists or equivalent German body.

Good luck!

Thanks anacrusis. You are quite correct with "vibrating part". The labium is usually the complete carving in front of the recorder head, consisting of the labial/labium edge, the ramp and the roof. Actually, I just found what I was looking for, to clear the issue of labelling recorder parts up:

Moeck Labelling Recorder Parts

For the term jutting, I decided against it. I will use projected instead, which seems quite fitting in this context.


@rosfrog Aren't you overshooting a bit? You know nothing, absolutely nothing about the background situation. And to tell the truth, I have seen translations of native speakers - calling themselves translators - so hilariously off, that it is a wonder they got a diploma or certificate at all. And especially, when it comes to translations concerning technical terms they don't know nothing about. So, it is nice and good that you do translations. But that does not necessarily mean, that what you think or what you think is good, is good for others. So, ranting about who should do translations and who shouldn't is completely unnecessary. And since you are a linguist, thus, obviously, making a living from communication, you should realize that silence is also a form of communication. Especially, since you were in no way helpful with the original question.

Hi Lemontree,

Back on topic.
No, I definitely would not understand what you mean here by "jutting" (also"long" and "small" seem a bit in oppostion too ??).

I play the recorder. I'm only a beginner but I do know what the labium is and, to me, a "jutting" labium conjures up --- nothing. Can you paraphrase what you're trying to say, then maybe we can come up with something?

E

I agree jutting sounds odd.

Projecting was a good suggestion. But do note that you changed it to ' projected' and that has a slightly different connotation.

I'm afraid that, at least out of context, "Its labium is projecting/projected, long and small" is incomprehensible to me. I agree with Rosfrog that we might be able to help you more if you could let us know the original German, with a bit of its context.

Will look, if I can find a foto of the labium in question, and if so, post it in here in the evening, as I am currently a bit in a hurry. Thanks all!

Lemontree I think rosfrog was trying to be helpful. That's what it sounded like to me. I think he was just trying to warn you about potential pitfalls and how you can avoid them.


PS we'd usually say photo not foto

*puts hand up*
I'm not a translator, but - I play the recorder to a fairly advanced level, and am used to naming bits of the instrument, and speak German and English equally well, having been brought up bilingually. Not perfectly suited to the job maybe, but certainly partially equipped to help?
I'm afraid though, rosfrog, that your post did come across as something of a put-down...

My post wasn't intended to offend, Lemontree - rather to point you in the right direction. I was actually trying to assist you and, as stringmum says, point out the pitfalls that an untrained person may not be aware of.

I doubt the translations you have seen that are off are by qualified native speaking translators, though. Perhaps by native speakers passing themselves off as translators. Or translators passing themselves off as native speakers.

I'm sorry you feel offended by the fact that I'm questioning whether you should be doing this job, but I feel very strongly that professionals should carry out their respective jobs rather than unqualified people. I wouldn't want someone who had read a lot of law books and watches ally mcbeal doing my litigation for me - however well qualified they might feel they are for the job.

A professional translator will have studied translation post-graduate and will have chosen a speciality. For example, a medical translator is likely to be a doctor too, or at least to have studied medicine to a high level. Many legal translators are qualified lawyers and generally, someone translating something to do with musical instruments would be an expert in this area too. It is then usually proof-read by a professional in the domain who speaks only the target language. This is why translation is costly.

So to provide good translation services, you need to be 1) a native speaker of the target language, 2) qualified and trained in the art of translation and 3) an expert in the subject matter.

I don't provide translation services, actually - haven't done for many years, but I qualified as a translator and I do take exception to non-trained people thinking they can do the job just as well. Sorry if that offends.

My post was actually an attempt to provide you with some guidance so that you might manage your project and some suggestions should you wish to train as a translator (you already have a native tongue and a specialist subject, so all that is missing is the training) - which is actually quite a positive suggestion - there's likely to be a fair amount of work in it for you if choose that route and my suggestions of how to check your word were in fact routes that a trained translator would take.

If it touched a nerve and you prefer to ignore my advice and see my message as a personal affront instead, then go right ahead - it makes no difference to me.

I spend much of my working life struggling to understand documents in "English" which began life as Japanese documents and were translated into English by native Japanese speakers. Often not at all easy, and sometimes impossible, even though I have little doubt that the translators are reasonably knowledgeable in the technical field concerned. In many cases I suspect the document I end up with hardly reflects the intentions of the original Japanese author at all. What Rosfrog says makes perfect sense to me. We send many documents for translation and always use a native German speaker to translate into German and a native English speaker to translate from German into English.

Problem solved!

Thank you all very much!