yes it was Guiting Power - I absolutely can't stand this.

Coe Fen on the other hand is fine - I really wouldn't speak of these two in the same breath.

San Rocco - yep, my memory is that it's in the ok league.

Coe Fen is possibly my all time FAVOURITE hymn tune..."Lord send a beam on me!!!" It is a touch sentimental, but I think that is why I like it...it reminds me of college

Common Praise is fine. You are exonerated from all blame. At least you did not recommend Hymns Old and 'New' ! (Merit mark by negative action.)

Barry Williams

I have only heard it used to "Give me the wings of faith to rise". What other words do you use it to?

David.

Sounds like the prayer of the portly.

Oh no Barry, I think we disagree on something. I think Coe Fen adds to the text, and actually think it has very little shallow and superficial appeal. Its a tune congregations need to work on, and that improves its standing in my eyes. Guiting Power, I have to admit I like, but only because the alternative in the dreadful Hymns Old and Nubile is the trendy poppy one in F. If there are alternatives I would be willing to try them. I agree with you about Wolvercote and Cuddesdon, jury still out in my mind on Ladywell.

How do you feel about East Acklam? I think there is more superficial appeal in that one and it is easier to sing, but marvellously crafted, IMHO.

I still have the sound of 220 teenage boys singing Stand Up Stand Up for Jesus in assembly this morning ringing heartily in my ears, so back to some proper Victoriana!!

This was the one they were going to go for! I actively discouraged it because I have heard that they (HON)changed the words to 'Onward Christian Pilgrims' and I thought, if they will do that, what else will they have ruined in the name of 'inclusivity'.

I should like to think it was my wise counsel that swayed the decision but I fear it was more likely the 25% discount offered by the publishers of Common Praise.

Or mathematicians.


Or Page 3 photographers.

......... or motorcyclists.

SB

In defence of HON (which as you know I am no fan of in a huge way!), they do admit that this is not a PC version of the original, but actually a new hymn that happens to start with Onward. So of all my objections to the hymnbook (of which there are many), this isn't one of them.

However CP is a good compromise and I use it.

And if I call my spade a banana does that make it one?

All of these smack of a daytime tv, fluffy-teddy, smell-of-scented candle sort of song that make me want to wipe the goo off my hands but there is no denying that there is a following for them. One of our choir ladies picks them up somewhere and suggests them for singing for weddings during the signing of the register.

Is it right to ban them completely like a kind of musical Taliban or should we slide the odd one in to mollify those who like them? It is normally the clergy's decision but we have ways of making our views known.

I remember one priest's sop to modernity was to allow them to have Give me joy in my heart/oil in my lamp about once every three years.

I would ban them, or otherwise only let them out for pre-school age Sunday School.

I gather that many of the hymns sung in schools these days are unknown to most of us over the age of forty.

SB

"How do you feel about East Acklam? I think there is more superficial appeal in that one and it is easier to sing, but marvellously crafted, IMHO."

East Acklam is a very fine tune. It is often wedded these days to the words 'For the Fruits of His Creation' by The Reverend Fred Pratt Green, who is often more a competent wordsmith rather than a real poet or hymn writer.

The tune was composed for the words 'God that madest earth and heaven' and must have sounded terrific in York Minster when it was first performed, in 1957 for the York Minster's Od Chorister's Reunion.

I suspect that Mr Green built his words on Dr Jackson's tune, for he follows the music closely, with its three successive lines of some length. I only wish it could be used more often instead of Ar Hyd y Nos and Mr Green's words put away for some while. It has been used for other words, including 'Through the love of God our Saviour' with greater success than 'For the Fruits of His Creation'. East Acklam is the village where Dr Jackson has lived for many years. How nice it is that he has given the village such musical immortality.

Not every hymn written to a known tune is thereby weak. Consider 'Love Divine' by Mr Wesley. He wrote that hymn with Purcell's 'Fairest Isle' in mind. That is a very fine tune and well worthy of use, even by a congregation, though Hyfrydol, Stainer's Love Divine and Blaenwern are all effective.

Was it Vaughan Williams who said that every man is entitled to like one bad hymn? Or was it an hymn tune?

I stand with C S Lewis who preferred fewer and shorter hymns, but most especially fewer. And I like them sung well, with proper phrasing, care to mark the enjambments, etc and not too fast. But most especially fewer hymns please!


Barry Williams

Ban them . If a particular group of people don't like it they can always go elsewhere. There are plenty of churches that cater for all tastes and worship styles.

"There are plenty of churches that cater for all tastes and worship styles. "

Not always. So many of the churches that try to be 'with it' end up doing music that is not really contemporary and often doing it very badly.

The general mish mash that occurs when churches try to be all things to all persons quickly falls to the lowest common denominator of choice and performance standard.

"I remember one priest's sop to modernity was to allow them to have Give me joy in my heart/oil in my lamp about once every three years."

This is another piece that seriously lacks modernity, though it is rather more pleasing than many of its ilk. The 'theology' is conspicuous by its absence and there is no challenge nor real message. A catchy tune is all there is - it has 'feel good' factor. But if that is all you have to do once every three years then you have been let off very lightly. After all, Martin How's arrangement is not that bad and you could always put in a deputy.

The Russian Orthodox Church has never felt the need to have a 'sop to modernity'. It is apity that they do not need organists.

Barry Williams

Yes, agree the words fit the Green words better than the original.

Your Purcell note reminded that there are a few tunes by the 'old masters', ie composers, not hymn tune composers. There's a delightful little one by Mozart, and another from Athalia by Handel. Can anyone think of anymore?

PS Yes, and there's Ode to Joy, and while I can't stand the tune, singing it as a hymn tune has become all the rage in some places.

There's "Offertorium" by Michael Haydn and, of course, "Austria" by his brother.

I have to disagree with you here, David. When I was 14 or 15 this was the first hymn I chose to learn to play, and I chose it because I loved it so much. It has such lovely minor chords! And the last line is so uplifting. The next one I chose was Highwood ("Hark, what a sound"), which has a similar feel with interesting chords.

In answer to guilmant, "Thine be the glory" is usually sung to a tune from Handel's Judas Maccabaeus. There are also a few in Hymns & Psalms by Arthur Sullivan - maybe not quite an old master, but close!

I think there might be one or two hymns with music by (or at least harmonised by) some bloke called Bach.

Hmm... I like As The Deer, as long as it's not overplayed. As for You shall... Yuck. Can't stand it.


Dare I ask what people think of Abba Father? I have a certain fondness of it as have vivid memories of singing it in primary school, but I suspect that if I was coming to it afresh this would not be the case!

There is one by Wagner which we sing now and then - I can't remember the words offhand - it's a communion hymn.

(ed) Holy God we show forth here.
Tune is called da zu dir der Heiland kam.

You shall go out with joy is hilarious
i) I want to know who Joy is
ii) It ends up prestissisissisisisimo
iii) I make sure that skull caps are being worn
iv) It feels like everyone should shout, 'Oy Vey!' at the end

At my confirmation, the music group played as the choir and clergy processed, and the chosen him (haha - one of my funniest typing errors to date! ) was the offending aforementioned 'You Shall...'. I believe the trumpet player actually shouted 'Oy Vey!' at the end.

I love that one!

Me too! What a lot of total unscriptural twaddle.

Nothing, however, quite equals this one:

Within the churchyard side by side
Are many long low graves
And some have stones placed over them
On some the green grass waves

Full many a little Christian child
Woman and man lies there
And we pass by them every time
When we go in to prayer

They do not hear our footsteps come
They cannot see us pass
They do not feel the bright warm sun
That shines upon the grass

They do not hear when the great bell
Is ringing overhead
They cannot rise and come to church
With us for they are Methodists

(Ok, the last line has been adapted just slightly )

Liz




It's most unfortunate if you happen to have a church where there is a young woman called Joy and a young unattached man



I like these words to that tune

Let's all have a real good growl
We like growling you know
All these hymns are much too high
We're basso profundo
We don't care about the words
As long as we stay below C ee ee ee ee ee ee
Let's all have a real good growl
Chris Bowater for me!

Liz

You can't beat singing the words of O Jesus I have promised to the theme tune to the Muppets. Fits like a glove, if you'll excuse the pun...

Shine Jesus Shine


As for 'we plough the feilds with tractors' - well, we dont. We plought the feilds with ploughs which are pulled by tractors...

Oh dear.. worst hymns..


Well
1 Open the eyes of my heart, Ahhh the pitch, I got the song in my head now. We sung it almost every week at youth club oh dear !!


2 Purify my heart.

3 Blessed be your name ~ people sing it almost everywhere, ~ its viable in a church band but piano wow Repetitive.. !!!!

that's brilliant

Oh no! Not fewer hymns (unless, that is they displace choir pieces). Hymns are great if they have good words and a strong tune.

Not too fast - how I agree. I can't stand the way dignified tunes are taken so fast these days. As far as I am concerned, if you don't want to sing hymns properly, then sing worship songs instead.

As for phrasing: no-one has ever, in my view, sung hymns with such beautiful phrasing as the Temple Church under Thalben-Ball. I don't think phrasing is just, or perhaps not even mainly, where you breathe, but how you shape the lines. We all, myself included, have this fixation these days with not breathing where there is no comma, but is this really suitable for congregations. I sometimes feel that fewer breaths means less musical shaping.

You don't sing things at the speeds suggested in the English Hymnal do you?
If I'd done that
a) we'd be late for the second service
b) the second service would over run and everyone's dinners would be burnt
c) half the congregation would have died from lack of breath due to the length of phrases
d) the other half of the congregation would have died from hypothermia from being in the church for so long.

I have mentioned this before, but playing at a URC church a few years ago on Palm Sunday, I was asked to play 'There is Green Hill far away' to 'House of the Rising Sun', that den of iniquity in New Orleans decribed famously by 'The Animals' in the mid 60's.
I nearly refused to play for the service ! But it really does fit well !

Not that slow, no. But keeping the same mood, yes. I really can't stand the trivialization of great, strong tunes. If you don't like them, don't sing them. There's plenty of trivial music around that you can sing!

I've just had a quick play in my head and timed myself with the watch and I reckon I do Hydrofoil[1] (Alleluia, sing to Jesus) at about 144, which gives me time to play, wallow in singing the bass bottom Fs and put a suitable number of commas in for word expression.

[1] There used to be hydrofoils as an option for getting to Southampton.

I have always called it Hydrofoil, but as I play at Welsh Presbyterian Chapel (though its in England), I am in serious trouble if I mention it there !

^^

I call it that, too! I'm sure the Welsh don't worry if they mangle English words.

What a pretty waltz!

When it comes to waltz's the 'Mozart' tune for Take my life and let it be, is one I tend to play as a waltz, with the first beat in the bar down an octave in the left hand to give the ONE (two three) sense to it!

Really that fast? IMO Hyfrydol begins to sound trivial long before you get near 144. Even the speed of Lo! he comes on the BBC 3 choral evensong yesterday, although better than many, still managed to rob the hymn it of its nobility - again IMHO.

I did used to play hymns fairly briskly. Then one day my predecessor turned up and wondered what had happened to the robust congregational singing that he had known. I was slightly surprised since I didn't think it was too bad. I never did find out (I guess I didn't ask around enough), but with hindsight I now suspect that my speeds may well have had something to do with it. I changed my approach at my next church, where they had a tradition of singing the hymns more slowly (and where I decided not to change anything until I was sure it really was bust and needed fixing). Though I hated it at first, I soon came to see the wisdom of it. Organists tend think it is to necessary to "keep the hymns moving" in order for them to have vitality, but in reality it's rhythm and impetus, not speed, that are needed and what the people want is to be allowed a good sing.

Incidentally, I was once told (correctly, I hope!) that the correct pronunciation is "Hiffridol" (accent on the first syllable).

IMO Hyfrydol begins to sound trivial long before you get near 144.

Have to say I agree.

Maybe it makes a difference bellowing out the bass part at the same time. I've just tried again in the head with a watch and that time it was in the 130s. I've tried a 96 and that feels lethargic.

A couple of Welsh friends who have tried to teach me - with a certain lack of success - how to pronounce the names of Welsh hymn tunes tell me it's pronounced Huv-rud-ol, with the accent on the second syllable. I still prefer Hydrofoil, though!

I think we take it at around 110.

Of course it depends on the building to some extent.

Well, it's bound to if you are used to those fast speeds. At first, when I changed churches as mentioned above, I had exactly the same feeling with every hymn. I now take Hyfrydol at 92 and actually it's not at all letharic.

There are arguments in favour of faster speeds, which I respect, but I do think that, when a hymn is taken so fast that it becomes trivial something is badly amiss. One thing I am absolutely sure about (because I was guilty of it myself when younger) is that organists don't take enough time out to listen critically to hymns. I do that quite a lot these days (admittedly mostly on radio and TV) and am often saddened at how superficial they are made to sound.


Indeed it does and so does the size of the congregation. If you have only a dozen people present you would probably do better with a less sedate speed than if you have 120.


Ah. Thanks for that, Holz.

Quite fascinated by this debate so I tried it myself and I should like to report that my Hyfrydol went at 118.

So Vectistim would arrive at Southampton first, I would be second, maggiemay third and Vox Humana would come in an elegant fourth.

I'd go for 108 (though I think it's very difficult to gauge a speed without actually playing it on the organ in the building - preferably with a congregation).

That is very true!

But I did - though not with a congregation. Played it through at the speed I would do it and timed on my little Seiko metronome.

I agree that there are some despots who can drag you forwards or back, though - haven't quite grown a hide thick enough to withstand these types.