I am planning to have some singing lessons at some point soon, and am wondering what kind of students you teachers find the easiest to teach, help and deal with?
I am VERY much wanting to improve, but...I am also a bit set in my ways about what my areas requiring improvement actually are and how to fix them.
Because I've had so many years of singing for fun and just for myself, and have now become a recording nazi, listening back to myself every chance I get, and harshly critiquing myself...I do think I have ideas about what specific areas I need to fix/improve, but this could come across as being a know-it-all...would teachers find this really difficult? (I just don't want to "waste" my time on things like tuning or rhythm, when I think I need the most help with breath control, resonance, vocal placement or whatever it's called, and projection)
Thank you!
Full Version: For All You Singing Teachers...
I love it when a student has precise objectives (I want more power here, or I want this note to be lighter or I want more range or even things like I want more gospell in my tone) - clear objectives allow me to work with the singer in getting them to where they want to be vocally.
However some teachers cling to an outdated idea of what is considered good singing and will often try to force a student down a particular sound production route - mistakeny believing that only one style is valid.
I think that most decent teachers do not subscribe to this school of thought. I know the only time I would insist on changing something the student was doing, against their will, would be if it was vocally abusive - but even then this doesn't mean their sound has to change - there are perfectly healthy ways to make all kinds of sounds!
I always like to keep in mind that whether or not I like the sound is irrelevant as long as the singer is happy with what they're doing and it's not harmful. I don't buy into 'flawless and beautiful singing' that is preached by so many teachers - beauty is entirely subjective.
I would however find it odd if you came to saying I have such and such a problem and here's how I want you to fix. I consider that if you need the help of an expert teacher then your own strategies for solving your own vocal issues haven't been enough and now you want professional help. I'd therefore be delighted to receive a wishlist from a student but wouldn't really pay much attention to any suggestions as to how they think we should fix the issues - that's my end of the deal!
I would just urge you then to choose your teachet very carefully - choose someone who has knowledge of the styles you wish to sing in, who. works with the latest scientifically proven techniques and who works with your objectives and tastes rather than imposing their own (especially don't buy the "if you can sing opera you can sing anything" line - it's a big lie!)
I'd recommend an Estill teacher, or a teacher who uses similar methods - they won't force a style or sound ideal on you and they will work on your objectives rather than theirs.
Good luck!
However some teachers cling to an outdated idea of what is considered good singing and will often try to force a student down a particular sound production route - mistakeny believing that only one style is valid.
I think that most decent teachers do not subscribe to this school of thought. I know the only time I would insist on changing something the student was doing, against their will, would be if it was vocally abusive - but even then this doesn't mean their sound has to change - there are perfectly healthy ways to make all kinds of sounds!
I always like to keep in mind that whether or not I like the sound is irrelevant as long as the singer is happy with what they're doing and it's not harmful. I don't buy into 'flawless and beautiful singing' that is preached by so many teachers - beauty is entirely subjective.
I would however find it odd if you came to saying I have such and such a problem and here's how I want you to fix. I consider that if you need the help of an expert teacher then your own strategies for solving your own vocal issues haven't been enough and now you want professional help. I'd therefore be delighted to receive a wishlist from a student but wouldn't really pay much attention to any suggestions as to how they think we should fix the issues - that's my end of the deal!
I would just urge you then to choose your teachet very carefully - choose someone who has knowledge of the styles you wish to sing in, who. works with the latest scientifically proven techniques and who works with your objectives and tastes rather than imposing their own (especially don't buy the "if you can sing opera you can sing anything" line - it's a big lie!)
I'd recommend an Estill teacher, or a teacher who uses similar methods - they won't force a style or sound ideal on you and they will work on your objectives rather than theirs.
Good luck!
QUOTE(rosfrog @ Nov 20 2009, 08:42 AM) 
I would however find it odd if you came to saying I have such and such a problem and here's how I want you to fix. I consider that if you need the help of an expert teacher then your own strategies for solving your own vocal issues haven't been enough and now you want professional help. I'd therefore be delighted to receive a wishlist from a student but wouldn't really pay much attention to any suggestions as to how they think we should fix the issues - that's my end of the deal!
Hey again, Rosfrog! I love your responses, they're so helpful!
Yes, I completely understand your point re the above...I personally know (to an extent) what I want to "fix" in myself and also what I want to be able to do and sound like, BUT I definitely don't know how to fix it, which is good IF my chosen teacher DOES know!
I think I tend to blab on a bit and try and describe in perhaps too much detail what my problems are and what I want to sound like, so they might get confused. lol.
Say you were my teacher, and I came in to see you for the first time and said...I THINK my problems are...
1. Breath control (I think, but I'm not sure, I'm not using or getting or controlling enough air properly)
2. Resonance and strength (I can't project and even when I feel like I am in my head, it sounds not full on the recording. It sounds one dimensional, and I mention below in point 1 that I especially have these issues with what I think is my mid-range) And it also feels as if, beyond about the first low octave, that my throat is swollen and my larynx is really lifted (which I've heard is wrong), and I'm singing purely out of my throat, not out of my mouth or something...
3. I get some negative physical effects whenever singing loud notes beyond the first octave of my range. My voice sounds a bit gravelly even when I don't want it to and I have to do a very soft/not very noticeable clearing of my throat and/or drink water very frequently to fix this during a song, and also if I sing too many of these notes, very soon my throat feels as if the 2 vocal cords/folds are touching each other (which I know is supposed to happen, but it feels really BAD. I can't keep singing and my voice will just stop because the urge to cough is so strong)
4. I have recently noticed that although I think my vibrato is nice and good and well controlled and actually quite effortless, I find myself towards the end of held notes with vibrato, right at the end, my voice gets tense and the vibrato speeds up and sounds strained. I don't know why I do this and think it's a more recent thing. I really don't like it and it doesn't sound good.
What I WANT to be able to do is...
1. Sing strong and clear, like the style in such songs in Phantom of the Opera, Les Miserables, etc. My current sound is nice and sweet and sort of suits those sorts of songs, BUT at the same time, it still sounds one dimensional and weak, and there is a big "gap" between my fairly nice low range and my more comfortable and slightly more powerful high range that is really difficult to get any sort of resonance and power (the mid voice I suspect, but again, I don't know)
2. I also want to sing NOT sweet and clear for once. I want more grit like Stevie Nicks and Grace Slick. (and I am aware that despite my automatic habit of trying to sing just like these people - or Stevie anyway, and Kate Bush, and Karen Carpenter, and so on, lol - I should not be striving towards this and will not ever be able to sound exactly like them and shouldn't want to either)
2. Sing with much more energy and personality. Right now I can hear I'm holding back, but sometimes when I'm recording, I don't feel that I am. This may just be a case of once the other problems I have are fixed or improved, my confidence will rise and I'll naturally be able to sing with more OOMPH, you know? It also may be the simple case of having to sing with 150% effort to sound like you're singing with 80% when played back, and could be the same for everyone.
I think that's it...for now. lol. I have no issues with singing in tune, or singing in time, or doing those vocal acrobatics and stuff.
What do you think? Could you teach/help me if I was your student? lol
Same here - I am actually quite happy if a student comes to me and tells me what they would like to achieve etc. As I said somewhere else: I never try to force a sound on a student, it is not for me to decide in what style they would like to sing.
There is a fine line however between having an idea what one would like to achieve and not letting the teacher do their work
I have one student in particular who constantly questions things - no problem one would think. This is not the type of questioning however to understand things (which I like!), but the type:"Why do I have to do this, can I not just sing my songs and you show me how to do that? Why do we have to do 'gymnastics' (her word for everything that involves support and anchoring-work)? Why do I have to make these sounds, I just want to sing?" Even if I explain, she's still not happy and just wants to work on repertoire. This is very tiring and annoying, and I am actually almost at the end of my patience before I kick her out.
You have to trust your teacher - everything they do, they will do for a reason, and it is very destructive if you constantly work against it because your idea of 'a singing lesson' is somewhat unrealistic. I am not a song coach, I am a singing teacher - if you want a song coach, a pianist can do that. You also have to trust the teacher that if you have musicianship-problems, they need to be adressed, whether you like it or not. Some people think that they don't need to know about these things, but in the end, you want to be a good allround-musician, and not just someone who has to learn every song by rote from a recording. You can of course do that, but especially if you have a copycat-tendency, it is not always a good idea. Some people also think that they are rhythmically secure etc, but are actually far from it
All the things you would like to learn can be taught without problems:
Breath control/support/anchoring are the very basics anyway, they will probably be addressed first -together with proper cord-closure (depending on desired sound).
The style used by the females in Phantom is very classical btw, it is a very thin sound and not particularly 'strong' - it just projects well. Les Mis (unless we are talking about Cosette, but it is probably more Fantine and Eponine most people have in mind) is a completely different ballgame and a different technique. You can learn both, although you will probably find the thinner sound easier to start with, because you are already singing that way.
To do away with an urban myth: A raised larynx is NOT wrong. It even has to be high in certain singing styles. Don't ever, ever let someone tell you the larynx has to be low at all times - that's old-school classical singing and highly unhealthy in modern singing.
You should also free yourself of the idea to sound 'like' someone. Think more in ways of style than 'similar voice'. You can learn a similar vocal-set-up, but you will never sound like Grace Slick or Stevie Nicks anyway, and it would be far too limiting, you say it yourself.
Singing should never hurt. The voice should never sound or feel "gravelly", unless you want the sound and produce it in a healthy way (which you obviously don't, otherwise it wouldn't be uncomfortable). This can be addressed and solved as well.
Energy and personality will develop the more safe and secure you feel because you will notice that your voice actually does what you want it to do. I always do a lot of performance training with my students, and I think it is essential.
The vibrato-issue will most certainly solve itself if all the other parts start working properly.
And one general advice I would like to give every aspiring singer: Don't think, sing!
Of course you should think, but there's a difference between using your brains and overthinking everything. After all, singing should be fun.
There is a fine line however between having an idea what one would like to achieve and not letting the teacher do their work
I have one student in particular who constantly questions things - no problem one would think. This is not the type of questioning however to understand things (which I like!), but the type:"Why do I have to do this, can I not just sing my songs and you show me how to do that? Why do we have to do 'gymnastics' (her word for everything that involves support and anchoring-work)? Why do I have to make these sounds, I just want to sing?" Even if I explain, she's still not happy and just wants to work on repertoire. This is very tiring and annoying, and I am actually almost at the end of my patience before I kick her out.
You have to trust your teacher - everything they do, they will do for a reason, and it is very destructive if you constantly work against it because your idea of 'a singing lesson' is somewhat unrealistic. I am not a song coach, I am a singing teacher - if you want a song coach, a pianist can do that. You also have to trust the teacher that if you have musicianship-problems, they need to be adressed, whether you like it or not. Some people think that they don't need to know about these things, but in the end, you want to be a good allround-musician, and not just someone who has to learn every song by rote from a recording. You can of course do that, but especially if you have a copycat-tendency, it is not always a good idea. Some people also think that they are rhythmically secure etc, but are actually far from it
All the things you would like to learn can be taught without problems:
Breath control/support/anchoring are the very basics anyway, they will probably be addressed first -together with proper cord-closure (depending on desired sound).
The style used by the females in Phantom is very classical btw, it is a very thin sound and not particularly 'strong' - it just projects well. Les Mis (unless we are talking about Cosette, but it is probably more Fantine and Eponine most people have in mind) is a completely different ballgame and a different technique. You can learn both, although you will probably find the thinner sound easier to start with, because you are already singing that way.
To do away with an urban myth: A raised larynx is NOT wrong. It even has to be high in certain singing styles. Don't ever, ever let someone tell you the larynx has to be low at all times - that's old-school classical singing and highly unhealthy in modern singing.
You should also free yourself of the idea to sound 'like' someone. Think more in ways of style than 'similar voice'. You can learn a similar vocal-set-up, but you will never sound like Grace Slick or Stevie Nicks anyway, and it would be far too limiting, you say it yourself.
Singing should never hurt. The voice should never sound or feel "gravelly", unless you want the sound and produce it in a healthy way (which you obviously don't, otherwise it wouldn't be uncomfortable). This can be addressed and solved as well.
Energy and personality will develop the more safe and secure you feel because you will notice that your voice actually does what you want it to do. I always do a lot of performance training with my students, and I think it is essential.
The vibrato-issue will most certainly solve itself if all the other parts start working properly.
And one general advice I would like to give every aspiring singer: Don't think, sing!
Of course you should think, but there's a difference between using your brains and overthinking everything. After all, singing should be fun.
As usual - I am in agreement with Mezzo (I promise we didn't do the same courses and we haven't even met in real life - we just seem to have very similar philosophies on teaching voice - and on cake, and she speaks the Gaidhlig so she must be a top lady!)
Anyhow, yes - raised larynx - not wrong. Necessary in fact for your top notes. Even opera singers move their larynges up as they ascend - they then do one of two things, either drop it slightly again from the raised position to darken the sound (but it will still be higher than it was before) or they use the lips to darken the sound - the maintaining of the compressed tongue also helps with this. So - your larynx should be mobile - it shouldn't be fixed either high or low and should be free to move as your voice needs it to.
Working from your list of objectives - I'd be very happy with that and would probably ask you to sing something to verify what you've highlighted, then I'd perhaps add some other things and we'd begin working on your objectives - sometimes, you might find that your initial worry wasn't actually the problem and that what may appear to be, say, a breathing issue - is in fact down to resonance or tension in a muscle somewhere (often the jaw or tongue).
On the whole though - I'd be very happy to get such a list and work on a project bi-laterally - as I think most good teachers would.
Anyhow, yes - raised larynx - not wrong. Necessary in fact for your top notes. Even opera singers move their larynges up as they ascend - they then do one of two things, either drop it slightly again from the raised position to darken the sound (but it will still be higher than it was before) or they use the lips to darken the sound - the maintaining of the compressed tongue also helps with this. So - your larynx should be mobile - it shouldn't be fixed either high or low and should be free to move as your voice needs it to.
Working from your list of objectives - I'd be very happy with that and would probably ask you to sing something to verify what you've highlighted, then I'd perhaps add some other things and we'd begin working on your objectives - sometimes, you might find that your initial worry wasn't actually the problem and that what may appear to be, say, a breathing issue - is in fact down to resonance or tension in a muscle somewhere (often the jaw or tongue).
On the whole though - I'd be very happy to get such a list and work on a project bi-laterally - as I think most good teachers would.
This is so exciting! I feel really positive now...before, I was always quite hesitant and worried about going to see a teacher in case they pushed their own beliefs and styles on me or didn't understand what I thought my problems were and what I wanted to achieve and stuff...these replies have really made me feel good though.
I've been on another singing/music forum for a while and it's not made up of many actual teachers, more just a lot of aspiring or semi-successful singers and musicians who are all in the same boat with regard to seeking advice and improvement, as well as objective and helpful feedback for their singing...but I think ALL of them think a raised larynx is wrong. So that's pleasing for me to now hear it's not (necessarily. I'm sure in some circumstances it's not the best thing to be doing when singing). But I've noticed for a long time that when I sing notes that I find very high, my larynx is definitely raised. If I overdo it, it can feel a bit like my throat is swollen or "full"...
Mezzo, you mentioned I might find the Phantom-style singing easier than Les Mis at first cause of the lighter, thinner type of voice used? I agree with this, even though I don't know exactly why. lol. When you said I already sing like this, was that a compliment or...not? lol. Either way, it doesn't matter. In terms of Les Mis I did mean Eponine and Fantine, yes, not so much Cosette. Again, not that I know anything, but to me, Cosette's songs are easiest, because to me, they just are...more sweet, maybe thinner, not as powerful or resonant as the other songs. For me also, Eponine's songs are second easiest. Fantine's are hard. lol.
I'm very open to the teacher's advice. Once I'm comfortable with a teacher, I pretty much would say...just do what you have to! lol. And let them do their job and trust that it'll get me the results I want...
Something else I'd be pleased to do is sing songs that REALLY highlight my major obstacles...most of my ego-driven mind is embarrassed to even think of doing this and appearing so unpleasant and vulnerable, but the other more dedicated part needs to do this or else I can't get the proper help.
I have an example of a song I find SO hard to sing nicely and strongly. It's this one here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwnMYZS1hSc
I'm ok at the beginning, I even sound quite nice...but I have problems that begin right when she sings "then you've got no mind of your oooowwwwwnnnn..." you know? That word "own" that she draws out, I lose it from then on. I find her voice gains strength and resonance from that point and instead of going with her, I get left behind.
I've been on another singing/music forum for a while and it's not made up of many actual teachers, more just a lot of aspiring or semi-successful singers and musicians who are all in the same boat with regard to seeking advice and improvement, as well as objective and helpful feedback for their singing...but I think ALL of them think a raised larynx is wrong. So that's pleasing for me to now hear it's not (necessarily. I'm sure in some circumstances it's not the best thing to be doing when singing). But I've noticed for a long time that when I sing notes that I find very high, my larynx is definitely raised. If I overdo it, it can feel a bit like my throat is swollen or "full"...
Mezzo, you mentioned I might find the Phantom-style singing easier than Les Mis at first cause of the lighter, thinner type of voice used? I agree with this, even though I don't know exactly why. lol. When you said I already sing like this, was that a compliment or...not? lol. Either way, it doesn't matter. In terms of Les Mis I did mean Eponine and Fantine, yes, not so much Cosette. Again, not that I know anything, but to me, Cosette's songs are easiest, because to me, they just are...more sweet, maybe thinner, not as powerful or resonant as the other songs. For me also, Eponine's songs are second easiest. Fantine's are hard. lol.
I'm very open to the teacher's advice. Once I'm comfortable with a teacher, I pretty much would say...just do what you have to! lol. And let them do their job and trust that it'll get me the results I want...
Something else I'd be pleased to do is sing songs that REALLY highlight my major obstacles...most of my ego-driven mind is embarrassed to even think of doing this and appearing so unpleasant and vulnerable, but the other more dedicated part needs to do this or else I can't get the proper help.
I have an example of a song I find SO hard to sing nicely and strongly. It's this one here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwnMYZS1hSc
I'm ok at the beginning, I even sound quite nice...but I have problems that begin right when she sings "then you've got no mind of your oooowwwwwnnnn..." you know? That word "own" that she draws out, I lose it from then on. I find her voice gains strength and resonance from that point and instead of going with her, I get left behind.
I spent ages finding a singing teacher!
I'd say two things.
Firstly, shop around. When I first got a singing teacher I just looked in the Yellow Pages for someone who lived nearby and rang the first woman on the page. Singing teachers are massively different from one another; someone can be brilliant for one person and not for another. You need to be picky and find one that suits your needs and is happy to teach in the style you like. I spent ages pretending I liked singing classical music. I don't mind it, but it wasn't what I wanted to do really.
Secondly, while it's good to go with something specific you want to work on, you also need to go with in open mind. There'll be things you need to work on that you never realised were a problem and you'll probably be asked to do things that feel really strange at first. You need to find a teacher that you feel confident with and then trust them to know what's right for your voice.
I hope you find someone! You seem so enthusiastic about singing!
I'd say two things.
Firstly, shop around. When I first got a singing teacher I just looked in the Yellow Pages for someone who lived nearby and rang the first woman on the page. Singing teachers are massively different from one another; someone can be brilliant for one person and not for another. You need to be picky and find one that suits your needs and is happy to teach in the style you like. I spent ages pretending I liked singing classical music. I don't mind it, but it wasn't what I wanted to do really.
Secondly, while it's good to go with something specific you want to work on, you also need to go with in open mind. There'll be things you need to work on that you never realised were a problem and you'll probably be asked to do things that feel really strange at first. You need to find a teacher that you feel confident with and then trust them to know what's right for your voice.
I hope you find someone! You seem so enthusiastic about singing!
Thank you!
I read this the other day but felt embarrassed about being so openly enthusiastic about singing when I don't think I'm that good...
Now I'm in a bit of a better and more positive mood, so feel that "singing is my friend". lol. So again, thanks!
I read this the other day but felt embarrassed about being so openly enthusiastic about singing when I don't think I'm that good...
Now I'm in a bit of a better and more positive mood, so feel that "singing is my friend". lol. So again, thanks!
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