I thought it'd be fun and interesting (for me anyway, lol) to get people's professional and educated opinions on these singers and anything they're doing wrong (or right)...

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_gg6JNLtXI

This is Grace Slick at Woodstock. I chose it cause singing live is easier I think to hear any flaws or questionable techniques and stuff, as well as natural (not studio-assisted) good points. Although having said that, Grace was good at singing I think (bit of an understatement in my opinion) and didn't need a heap of help in the studio.

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py3w5fttedA

This is Stevie Nicks in 1976 doing Rhiannon live. I LOVE this version. Apparently she shredded her voice doing it a lot though, especially the very end bits...

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVR9r3kHSMs

This is Grace Slick again (studio version), singing Silver Spoon. I LOVE this song and this is what I want to be able to sing like. All the power and stuff that I totally lack right now. *sigh of inadequacy* Is she singing well here or is she doing things wrong or is lacking in any way? I'd be very interested to know, cause to me, this is perfection.

Thank you!!!

Oh wow! Nobody all? lol

I'm not a trained singer but I'd be interested in the answers. To be honest I feel like I've got a sore throat listening to the Grace Slick songs. The other clip, I was too distracted by the guitarist's kimono to listen much to the singing, but it sounded typical to a lot of 70s singers I remember.

I'm getting round to it Eunice - it's just that you probably don't realise the amount of work you're asking us to do - often people will ask voice pros to 'just' look at something without realising the detailed work required to provide accurate analysis.

If I wanted to listen to each clip, list the configurations and techniques used and ascertain whether it was all being produced physiologically healthily, we're looking at a couple of hours work more or less.

I'm interested, so I'll get round to it, but it will take some time!

Oh, goodness me!! I'm so sorry. I really had no idea! If you're really interested, that's fantastic and I'll wait. Thank you so much.

Lizzie, you feel your throat was sore from listening to Grace? Really? Just from how she sounded...or what?

It just sounded forced to me - but I must emphasize I know nothing about singing technique!

Yeah, everyone likes different things. I do find Stevie Nicks’ voice forced on the clip I posted, but not Grace Slick (or at least not the Silver Spoon song I posted)

I've just listened to the first one - wow! I really loved it! Thanks for posting, I've never heard of this singer before - probably means I've lead a sheltered life or something. People have been saying it sounds a bit forced - I don't agree but I'm no expert, just a (slightly clueless) singer. To me this sounds like really strong, powerful singing and it sounds quite 'free', as in, like she does not have to strain to produce the sound. Great song and great stage presence too.

Ok, I've had a quick listen and done a bit of work, here are my observations for what they're worth :

Grace is using a lot of twang in the first clip - the folds are slightly thicker than I would have liked with so much twang, but her throat is open and it's therefore a perfectly healthy voice production mode. There are a couple of belted bits that aren't quite as on centre as I'd like - this is probably because she doesn't anchor the neck very much and this is really important for belt. She is using a lot of back anchoring though - which is a good thing.

If I wanted to improve what she's doing, we'd look at neck anchoring and elastic recoil breath, as well as a higher proportion of cry in her twang to balance it. That said, I hear absolutely no instances of vocal trauma in her singing in this first clip, so if she were happy with it and were my student (which obviously she's not!) then I'd be happy to let her continue like this as long as she were aware of the risks of belt with no neck anchoring and twang on very thick folds.

I'm more mitigated on the Stevie Nicks' clip. She's raising the larynx for her high notes, which is a good idea if you want power - the natural reflex is to lower it as we go down, but very low notes that we want to sound powerful will need a raised larynx - however she's not opening the false folds and this can cause constriction problems. She's using distortion effects - the first ones (at the start of the song) are fine and appear to be produced with false folds, but in a healthy way so I'd have no problem with that. What is bothering me is that the false folds remain slightly constricted throughout the whole song and whilst some people can get away with this, it's quite rare and there are healthier ways to achieve this angst-ridden sound. Her vibrato clearly shows the constriction - it's a sheep bleat, most likely produced with the chords themselves rather than with the full laryngeal structure - which is normal if she's tightening her throat to that point. I'd want to change that as soon as possible. Towards the end of the song, she's adding air to a twanged configuration with slightly thick folds - I'd strongly advise not to do this as you're asking two opposing sets of muscles to fight against each other in the vocal folds and it will almost certainly lead to vocal fold trauma. The distorsion towards the end is perfectly healthy too - although there are a couple of instances of vocal fry used at too loud a volume, but on the whole she's using a healthy, twangy, false-fold distorsion.

I'd say that I think it unlikely that this song shredded her voice - rather slightly off centre technique over a period of time would have done that. The distorsion bits are fine and not at all the reason for any vocal fold trauma (apart from the couple of fry instances, but these wouldn't have caused a great deal of damage) - her main problem is she doesn't let the constriction go when she's singing in non distorted voice, and she adds air to things that shouldn't have air in them.

Again, it is perfectly possible to make these sounds in a far healthier and sustainable way.

The third one is harder to judge because of the studio recording side of things. There's lots of twang, a bit of sigh quality, some (better) belting and a much more open throat.

It seems that the quality you appear to be drawn to is quite twangy - so perhaps it might be a good idea to work on that first - placing it over a simple thin fold sound will give a much thicker sound than you're actually working to produce - it's like a super-boost for the voice !

None of the examples is forced, though - although Stevie Nicks is constricting a little too much for my taste - but on the whole, with a little centralising work these sounds can all be produced in a healthy, un-forced way.

Not all teachers will be able to teach them to you, though - so make it clear what you're looking for when you start calling around - many teachers only teach classical (I believe they shouldn't call themselves singing teachers, but teachers of classical singing to avoid confusion for whilst classical is part of singing, the reverse is not true - but that's another debate) - there's of course absolutely nothing wrong with teaching only one style and if when you call a teacher they tell you that they don't teach the style you're looking at - that goes to prove that they are honest about their abilities.

Even among modern teachers who embrace a generally more medical approach to singing and are more open to a wider range of sounds, there are those who will not teach distorsion - so if that's something you want to learn, you may wish to double check that with the teacher.

All good modern teachers should be able to demonstrate what twang is, how it works and how to apply it to contemporary music (sometimes as a sound on its own, sometimes as a component in a vocal recipe).

THANK YOU, ROSFROG!!! You're the greatest!! Thank you seriously, for taking that time to listen and analyse those clips. I really do appreciate it.

I think what I want to develop more is twang. I'd never heard of it before except in terms of the sayings "country twang" as in the way some people speak, etc. I still don't really understand what it actually IS, but I'm researching as we speak!!

Eunice - until you get a teacher, I'd recommend reading Gillyanne Kayes 'Singing and the Actor' -although it's geared towards musical theatre and doesn't cover things like distorsion etc, it does cover things like twang in a very accessible way.

You'll also have a bonus in that, should you decide to do an Estill course (or a vocal process one - Gillyanne is one of the directors of Vocal Process) - or even study with any good modern anatomy-based teacher, you'll already be speaking the same language.

Get the version with CD, though ! It's available directly from Vocal Process (www.vocalprocess.co.uk)

Cathrine Sadolin's book Complete Vocal Technique is also excellent - it deals with more contemporary sounds such as distortion as well as things like twang. However, it costs around four times what Gillyanne's book does and I can't honestly say hand on heart that you'll get a great deal more out of it other than the distorsion effects.

A good compromise may be the Dona Soto-Morettini book (haven't got the title to hand, but you'll find it on Amazon and it talks about contemporary vocal technique) - it's basically the same information as in Gillyanne's book, but organised for the contemporary vocalist (although for some unknown reason, she rename's some of the voice qualities and does odd things like separating twang into two types) - it's an interesting take and has less science in it than the Gillyanne book.

If you want more recs - please don't hesitate to ask and, of course, all good teachers must give the warning 'whilst a book may be a good way to improve your knowledge and work on things at home - it doesn't replace the guidance of an expert who can listen to things you may miss and correct them quickly'.

Have fun!

Thanks again, Rosfrog!!

I've got 2 singing books already, but I think they're quite generalised, not specific at all. Also, I find it hard to sort of know whether I'm getting the right thing from books...I really want to see someone at this stage. I've tried books (though I'd be interested in looking into the first and last ones you mentioned), and feel I need one on one, immediate feedback and advice/guidance.

I read up on twang, and I THINK I get it now...but I'm not sure...and if I DO get it, then I'm also not sure how to use twang and not sound silly/strange. lol.

There's a song I sort of did singing a bit strangely, for fun but also cause otherwise it was hard if I sang it in my "normal" (whatever that is) voice...called Law Man. It's by Grace Slick originally...

www.soundclick.com/germpatterson (it's called Law Man and is quite far down in the list. I recorded it way back) I know it sounds weird, but is this using more twang, or am I on completely the wrong track here??

Also, you say both Grace and Stevie use a lot of twang? I can recognise Grace's twang, but not Stevie's...unless twang can sound totally different in different people of course...?

Hi again Eunice !

I couldn't agree more - seeing a teacher is much better than using books.

I've had a listen to the Law Man song - it's hard to be precise with the microphone effects - I can't really hear your voice properly (modern teachers are often listening 'behind' the sound to hear the placement of cartilages, thickness of vocal folds etc and microphone effects make this hard).

I can certainly hear twang in your sound. I can't answer your question 'is this singing with more twang' because I don't know what you mean by more - more than what ? I would need two versions to compare to answer this question.

What I can tell you is that the twang isn't being produced as efficiently as it could - this is why the top notes sound a little flat - because, like many people who twang without understanding it - you're pushing your high notes and, with twang, we never drive the breath - it can be potentially dangerous and will almost always pull you flat.

I can't clearly hear the position of the tongue because of microphone effects, but it seems it's too low for twanging.

The issue you have with twang is that it's not just a sound - but a vocal set up, other things need to change in the pharynx and mouth too.

To answer your question about using twang without sounding silly, let me explain my own pedagogy a little.

I separate the voice into three spheres, body, larynx, pharynx (in French I refer to them as corps, cordes et conduit - the three c's help my students to remember). In each sphere there are various elements that affect how the voice works and we learn how to control these. In the larynx sphere we find three vibration patterns for the vocal folds - thick, thin and rigid (although thick and thin are actually the same pattern physiologically with a slight difference, I teach them as two different things because they feel different to the singer). Each 'type' of vocal fold vibration has various functions that can be applied to it to give us what's known as a voice quality.

The voice qualities I identify are :

(thick) - Speech, Calling
(thin) - Cry, Twang
(rigid) - Sigh

Now your question was how to use twang without sounding silly - the thing is, ALL of these qualites sound exaggerated and a bit daft on their own - but the key is to think of them as primary colours or points on a compass (a lovely image I brazenly nicked from Andy Follin at Vocal Skills - great guy) - when a good singer is singing and the magic is happening, they are never squarely in the centre of one quality, but creating an artistic blend of qualities to give just the sound they want for the moment in question.

You do it yourself instinctively a little - in your les mis clip there is a little twang blended into some of the higher notes.

So - working with a good teacher will show you how to produce the voice qualities (or whatever they call them - modes or whatever), how to master them and produce them healthily throughout your range and then how to blend them to make different sounds that suit different moments.

A REALLY good teacher will then take you to the point where your emotional system is connected with the voice qualities to such a point that a certain emotion in a song will trigger exactly the right laryngeal and pharyngeal set up to make the perfect sound you have in your head.

Hope that helps a bit!

Probably the best description I've heard of Stevie Nicks. When she talks she whines too.

rosfrog, your 'sigh' quality is not the one that estill or kayes describe then, is it?

Nope - it's a stiff fold rather than thin fold quality - I wanted to maximise the idea of air being present in the sound and I don't like the term falsetto.

Oh! I get the sheep thing, but I really don't think she whines when she talks!!! lol

Anyway, Rosfrog, thank you again! I think everything with me and singing is just trying to get a SOUND and I've got no real idea about how to get it, and what it means internally and physically/mentally to get it...I just copy a sound based on what it sounds like and hope for the best. lol. Which clearly, doesn't tend to work all that well.

I actually feel like a person who looks pretty on the outside with all this makeup heaped on, but if ever it rains or there's no makeup or something, I'm revealed as having no substance beneath...that's how I feel with my voice. Sounds ok, sweet, in tune, etc, but there's no backing there. No support.

I realised after listening again to my Law Man clip, there's a heap of "waa" on it. I remember now putting that on. #######. Sorry about that. It's totally distorted. I'd forgotten that was on there.

I didn't realise I was putting any sort of twang on the Les Mis clip! I recorded that probably about a month into recording myself at all, so very early on.

In terms of those 3 types...thick, thin and cry...I can do thin and rigid (I think...what IS sigh singing?), but CANNOT do thick. I have trouble even shouting words properly. It sounds weird to me and I really hold myself back. I can shout vowel SOUNDS well, but not words. As soon as words come into it, it's like all my air disappears and my voice gets thin and weak or weird sounding (to me anyway). I can do thin...I think that may be ALL I can do!

Hi Eunice !

The twang on the Les Mis clip is definitely present - but it's not very heavy. I think you were probably using it to get your high notes cleanly and easily.

You do very well with your copy cat approach and more often than not you're hitting the right configuration on the head - the problem with this approach is two fold - 1) you may produce the same sound, but it might not be healthy and 2) you won't sound like YOU !

As for the types of vocal fold vibration - thick folds is not akin to shouting - it's akin to quite loud speech (depending on your speech pattern of preference, of course). Find it by making loud voiced consonant noises such as VVVVVVVVVV or ZZZZZZZZZZ in your comfortable mid-range and see how the body is working (don't push the larynx, although you will feel effort there - it really is ok to feel something in your throat as long as it isn't strain !) - once you've got the VVVVV and ZZZZZ going, try to maintain the feeling on an Ah - you'll probably feel like your voice is richer, louder, more saturated with sound and more connected to your breath.

If that doesn't work, try saying 'uh-oh' at medium to loud volume on different pitches - this slight glottal attack will put you in thick fold vibration and should give you something akin to Speech Quality when you're singing.

Allan

Very interesting...

I'm trying to remember how I felt vocally while singing the Les Mis clip. I've always found that song the easiest to sing, cause as you said a while back, it's lighter and thinner I think...? Hmm...so also, in terms of the slight bit of twang I was using on that song...is it GOOD in this case to not use a lot of twang here, or would it be/sound better for me to have used more??

I actually find it a bit straining usually to speak loudly. I mean, I can do it, but usually I don't speak loudly. I don't speak QUIETLY either most of the time (unlike some people. Some of my friends speak VERY quietly and you can't even hear them!!), but just...of normal volume, you know? But if ever I have to speak louder, I feel I have to sort of...I feel like I'm pushing myself in some way, and that the sound / volume is being blocked by my throat and back of my throat/nose/face area. Like it's stunted. You know how some people's voices just seem naturally much more trebly and fresh and LOUD? And others seem much more muffled almost? Yeah.

Oh, also with Law Man, was I actually flat on some notes?? Wow. I've never been told that before!! lol. And when I said was that song sung using "more twang" I meant more twang than I'd been using on any of my other song clips.

The other day I was reading something somewhere (possibly on here *forgetful*) that was saying to try using consonant noises like VVV and ZZZ...and I tried it briefly, and I was fine on lower notes that weren't that loud. But I found it VERY difficult to get any sort of proper volume on VVVV. ZZZZ on the other hand was ok. Much easier than VVVV. I found both hard once I got up above a certain range of notes...ZZZ again was easier than VVV though.

In terms of vowel sounds, I find AH ok...I find EE ok but it sounds sort of...shrill if it's sung high enough. No, not quite shrill...more, just TOO loud. I find OH hard. It seems to close off my sound. I find OOH ok, but again, it closes off my sound. I find EYE and AY easiest...do you know why this would be? Especially EYE...

The "Uh oh" is good. I find this good and it does come out more how I think it should. It sounds stronger and less...gradual in terms of any strength or projection if that makes sense. Less GENTLE. I guess this is what glottal attack is, eh?

I find it hard to get that sort of sound most of the time. Almost all of the time in fact. And what you said about feeling my voice feeling more connected to my breath, that's really true. Mostly I feel it's NOT connected. I feel like somewhere between the breath and the sound coming out, there's a gap somehow...

This is a sort of probably stupid example of this...but Lady Gaga's new song, Bad Romance...at the beginning and later on again in the song, she sings low down in a quite deep, sort of...not gentle or light voice at all (I don't mean RIGHT at the beginning, but I mean when she goes into the "Ra ra" words). I know of course her voice is different from mine and don't particularly want to sound like her at all, but that beginning bit of the song (attached below on Youtube), that type of singing reminds me of what I feel when I do the "Uh oh" thing...and yet, when I've sung along with that song before, during that bit, I find I am sounding and feeling too...GENTLE. Too hesitant and gradual in my voice...does that make sense? To me it sounds as if her vocal style for that bit is as if she's going AH! really sudden and strong and biting? (and she is, she's singing things like "Ra ma ah-ah-ah")...whereas I'm going Ahhhhhh, and my sounds are starting sort of gradually instead of suddenly like her's. This probably makes NO sense!! lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_JPdYPDVg

Hi Eunice,

I've lifted your main points and given my take on them :

1) in terms of the slight bit of twang I was using on that song...is it GOOD in this case to not use a lot of twang here, or would it be/sound better for me to have used more??

** It's good to use a little twang everywhere to be honest, it's like oil on the motor - a tiny amount of twang makes everything easier. As to whether it would have been better to use more - that depends on the sound you wish to make - the twangier, the more cutting and sharp. If you're happy with the sound as it is, then you used the right amount of twang**

2) But if ever I have to speak louder, I feel I have to sort of...I feel like I'm pushing myself in some way, and that the sound / volume is being blocked by my throat and back of my throat/nose/face area.

** This implies constriction or pressed phonation (overloading the vocal folds) - the uh-oh exercise will give you your natural thick folds setting - don't over press or make it as loud as you 'think it should be' - just do it at a comfortable volume. Also, try doing a big buzzy 'mmmmmm' sound and feeling the vibrations in your lips. Keep the voice there when you open your mouth. That will help avoid constriction**


3) The other day I was reading something somewhere that was saying to try using consonant noises like VVV and ZZZ...and I tried it briefly, and I was fine on lower notes that weren't that loud. But I found it VERY difficult to get any sort of proper volume on VVVV. ZZZZ on the other hand was ok. Much easier than VVVV. I found both hard once I got up above a certain range of notes...ZZZ again was easier than VVV though.

** If ZZZ is easier, use that. Don't drive the breath and remember that it wont be as thick on the top as it is on the bottom - trying to attain the same feeling on the high notes as on the low where thickness of sound is concerned will lead to vocal strain. use the resonance idea above.**

4) In terms of vowel sounds, I find AH ok...I find EE ok but it sounds sort of...shrill if it's sung high enough. No, not quite shrill...more, just TOO loud. I find OH hard. It seems to close off my sound. I find OOH ok, but again, it closes off my sound. I find EYE and AY easiest...do you know why this would be? Especially EYE...

** Every vowel sound has a different vocal tract shape. Certain shapes make certain voice qualities easier, others make them very hard. Medialising would be a very good idea for you as it will make all vowel sounds equal in all qualities.**

5) The "Uh oh" is good. I find this good and it does come out more how I think it should. It sounds stronger and less...gradual in terms of any strength or projection if that makes sense. Less GENTLE. I guess this is what glottal attack is, eh?

** Yes - we also have a simultaneous and an aspirate attack, but that is the glottal - yes. Be careful not to over force the glottal attack. Simply close the folds (pretend you're holding your breath with your mouth open) and begin the sound - you'll hear a small click at the beginning of the note - you don't need to do anything, it will be there naturally.**

For Lady Gaga's song - she's doing all kinds of things with her voice - you'll need to give me the precise time references of the sounds that interest you (it seems to change from one word to the next in some parts).

Allan

I'm not sure if SHE actually does these things - I think it's very often the sound-engineer who does
If you just think of what you can do with EVO Vox these days - it goes far beyond simple Autotune, you can virtually re-shape the vocal tract of a singer (ever used 'Throat'?) and make a woman sound like a man without it being blatantly obvious.

I don't think she is a particularly good example for technically unmanipulated, natural sound, and I wouldn't advise to take any of the sounds she produces face-value. Listen to her live, then you'll probably get the drift (although real-time manipulation is possible as well, look at Shania Twain, who is always 'plugged in', even during her live gigs).

Not very keen on her, sorry. Has nothing to do with the musical style, but with the fakery ...

I get where you're coming from Mezzo, but at the start of the clip (the bit Eunice was asking about) the only effect I can hear is auto tune (I'm basing this on the fact that her timbre has not been modified from her live voice in the low part) - so I don't think that any gross voice modification has been done here and if it has, it wasn't to produce anything she can't do unaided.

I do agree about some of her sounds later in the song though - and in general - there's a fair bit of fakery going on, but mostly we hear a lot twang, slight false fold approximation over speech and twang, with a bit of tongue compression - nothing that should be avoided if done properly I don't think.

I'm with you in that I don't really like a lot of her stuff.

(Off-topic, sorry - what is with that teapot she carries around?!)


Very intersting thread.

That made me laugh out loud Celeste ! She certainly is a bit of character!

I'm convinced she's doing it all on purpose, though, to be 'interesting'... how odd!

I like Lady G! lol. I know she's odd, but I think it's funny-odd, not pretentious-odd. Meh. Some of the outfits are just plain WEIRD though. That red one where you couldn't even see her face?! lol.

Anyway, I know her vocals aren't the most natural but I have actually heard her sing live and she does have a fairly deep voice...her higher-sung vocals in that song sound deeper when sung live.

Anyway, Rosfrog, the bit I was referring to begins at 0.30 seconds. "Ra ra..." etc. That voice. That's the type of voice I find it hard to get...like the glottal attack or whatever other kind of attacks there are. lol.

What does tongue compression do to the voice? If I try and keep my tongue down lower in my mouth, it opens my throat up...is that what it's supposed to do? Is that what tongue compression even means in this context?

So the more twang used, the more cutting and sharp...? I WANT more cutting and sharp but whenever I try to do so, I only feel discomfort in my throat...I find I'm pushing the air out forcefully trying to get the sharp sound, you know?

Yes, whenever I try and speak loudly (most of the time) or shout words (not just sounds), it feels like my throat/vocals are "held back" and strained.

In terms of the vowel sounds, what's "medialising"? And in your very educated opinion, what does it mean that I find EYE and AY easier than say, OH?

So...an aspirate attack, is this when you use the air/chest/diaphragm or something to give the sudden sound, and not the throat?

I can easily do that closed-off throat thing (holding breath with mouth open) and when I open the throat again it clicks. I'm all too aware of this process. (my partner clicks SO LOUDLY when sleeping. She breathes in through her mouth and out through her nose and the click when her throat opens again to breathe in through her mouth DRIVES ME CRAZY! lol)

But when you say to begin the sound while the vocal folds are closed (to me the feeling of the throat/air passage being closed off), it just...automatically I just hum. I have to really change how I naturally feel this physically feels in order to do the "Uh oh" thing this way. I think I'm really uncoordinated. lol

I don't think you're uncoordinated necessarily! These things are really difficult to find if you're not doing them with a teacher. It's very easy to go wrong or just not know whether you've got it right, even if you have.

I'm not a Lady Gaga fan either, I'm afraid.

Mezzo, what do you mean by Shania Twain being 'plugged in' during a live performance? To manipulate the sound as she sings live?? I'm so naive on these matters!

I've done each point again, Eunice !

1) Anyway, Rosfrog, the bit I was referring to begins at 0.30 seconds. "Ra ra..." etc. That voice. That's the type of voice I find it hard to get...like the glottal attack or whatever other kind of attacks there are. lol.

** She is using a mixture of glottal and simultaneous attacks in that section - the glottal attacks are what give the rhythm, the voice type is a mixture of speech and cry with just a hint of belt blended in - she's not centering the speech part of the mixture properly so there's a kind of white noise behind it - a sort of constriction that gives a husky sound. There are healthier ways to produce such a sound than this way, mind you. Again, without hearing it live, I can't be sure of this, but that's what it sounds like and whether it's been manipulated or not is irrelevant (there's certainly autotune on it - that much is obvious) - what really counts is how YOU can make that sound - we don't much care how she is doing it !**

2)What does tongue compression do to the voice? If I try and keep my tongue down lower in my mouth, it opens my throat up...is that what it's supposed to do? Is that what tongue compression even means in this context?
** There are two points I must answer here - firstly, the old classical myth that keeping the tongue low opens up the throat and 'gives more space' is entirely false - your tongue is huge and if you attempt to lower it you will have more space in your mouth, but LESS space in your throat - if you push the tongue down, the only place it can go is into the pharynx. It will in turn exert pressure on the hyoid bone and epiglottis and force the larynx down - it's extremely dangerous to sing this way. Your tongue dorsum should be kept as high as possible in the mouth to keep the pharynx free and clear. Second point - tongue compression refers to something different in fact - nothing to do with the position of the tongue, but with the shape. When the dorsum is high and touching the upper molars, we can bring the tip back towards the dorsum to make a folded up shape - this will considerably darken the sound and is used by (good) classical teachers as a method for darkening the sound without overly lowering the larynx.**

3) So the more twang used, the more cutting and sharp...? I WANT more cutting and sharp but whenever I try to do so, I only feel discomfort in my throat...I find I'm pushing the air out forcefully trying to get the sharp sound, you know?

** Yes and no. If you use pure twang it will be cutting and sharp (think Anastacia) but generally we blend it with other elements (cry, belt etc) in which case, it remains present, but we hear it less as an obvious ingredient, more as a projection and brilliance in the voice. If you're feeling your twang in the throat, you're doing it wrong ! As you twang more, you tighten certain muscles in the laryngeal area making the overall tube narrower - this is why you must not drive air when you sing with twang. Most singing, with the exception of sigh quality, requires very little breath. Even belt - very little breath. Sub glottal pressure will be high, but that's due to the length of closed phase of the vocal folds and not to the singer increasing the breath flow. It's very important to point out that high air pressure in singing is a result of good vocal fold function NOT (as some teachers continue to preach) the reason for it.**

4)Yes, whenever I try and speak loudly (most of the time) or shout words (not just sounds), it feels like my throat/vocals are "held back" and strained.
** It's highly likely you are doing one of two things : Trying to speak too loudly in a set - up that isn't designed for that (cry, for example, is not loud unless you mix it and trying to speak loudly will just force the folds) - so it may be worth checking out what vocal-set up you're using when you speak. Secondly, it's almost certain that the sensation you're describing is down to false-fold constriction - try to imagine that you are laughing and mustn't show it so you let the laugh vanish from your face and keep the feeling of it in your throat - you should feel that there's a wide sensation in the laryngeal area - like you have more space in your throat - hang on to this feeling and breathe vigorously - you should notice that your breath is almost totally silent - drop the laugh and a white noise will come back into the voice. Now keep the laugh feeling and try shouting - it shouldn't feel closed in any more. I'm also concerned about this low tongue business - many singers try to create more space in the mouth and what they believe to be the throat by lowering the tongue for high or loud notes. You need to keep it nice and high during any intense vocal work.**

5) In terms of the vowel sounds, what's "medialising"? And in your very educated opinion, what does it mean that I find EYE and AY easier than say, OH?
** Medialising is a technique used by modern teachers to teach the student to make the difference between the vowel sounds with the middle of the tongue, rather than with the root and pharynx. This means that the pharyngeal shape can remain unchanged and the set-up maintained over all vowels (for example if you're in speech quality and you sing a loud OO sound without medialising, there's a huge chance that your voice will flip you into falsetto - the pharyngeal shape for OO is part of the set up for good falsetto. Thus if you want to sing an OO in speech quality, you need to find a way to sing it without changing the pharyngeal shape - medialising is the solution to this). Another advantage of medialising is that it equalises the resonance of all the vowels so that the open back vowels (such as AH) no longer resonate differently from the front close vowels (such as i). The reason for your personal vowel preference is hard to say without hearing you do it - it could be to do with your personal pharyngeal shape - it could be to do with your 'default' set up which doesn't like the OH sound - I'd really need to hear you do it in isolation to be sure. In any case, though, all humans have this issue in one way or another and a great solution is to medialise.**

6) So...an aspirate attack, is this when you use the air/chest/diaphragm or something to give the sudden sound, and not the throat?

** Attacks / onsets are the beginnings of notes. These are always obtained by the relationship between the glottis (space between the vocal folds) and the air. You cannot control your diaphragm consciously in any way that is useful for singing (yet another constantly perpetuated myth) - its action is largely involuntary and you can't feel it either - it provides very little sensory feedback. In short, the diaphragm is best ignored by singers because you can't consicously use it to sing any more than you can ask it walk your dog for you! To come back to onsets - there are three basic sorts :

1° glottal - the glottis closes before the airflow starts - this is the slight clicking sound you hear in 'uh-oh' if you pause in between the two sounds, you'll feel that something is shut in the throat in between the sounds.

2° aspirate - the airflow starts before the glottis closes - many old-fashioned teachers teach that this onset is dangerous (as they do with the glottal) - it is not. We use it all the time when we speak the English language (hotel, house, harbour) - it's when you hear the air before the sound starts. We also use the glottal attack all the time too - 'and another thing' - 'after' etc.

3° simultaneous - the airflow and glottal closure begin at the same time. Thing of saying 'yes' gently.

All three onsets have their place in music and knowing how to do all three will give you a larger palette of stylistic colours. They can also be used to problem solve - if you over load your chords and press your voice, aspirate onsets can be very helpful - if your voice is too thin and airy, glottal onsets will be very helpful, for example - in an exercise.

7) I can easily do that closed-off throat thing (holding breath with mouth open) and when I open the throat again it clicks. I'm all too aware of this process. (my partner clicks SO LOUDLY when sleeping. She breathes in through her mouth and out through her nose and the click when her throat opens again to breathe in through her mouth DRIVES ME CRAZY! lol)

** Well you've got a good model to copy then! The only difference is that the click should be followed by sound, rather than airflow, in your case !**

8)But when you say to begin the sound while the vocal folds are closed (to me the feeling of the throat/air passage being closed off), it just...automatically I just hum. I have to really change how I naturally feel this physically feels in order to do the "Uh oh" thing this way. I think I'm really uncoordinated. lol

**You're not uncoordinated - you're untrained. It's natural to not master these techniques if no one has shown them to you! As a self-taught singer, you've done extremely well to get as far as you have - you sound great. I'm describing these techniques to you so that you can get that missing piece of the puzzle you feel is just out of your reach!

A bit of a pun I'm afraid. Whines as in whinges. Chip on shoulder. Life's been SO cruel.

hi maria,

singing live these days sadly doesn't mean that the voice is unaltered. in the best case, you just send it through an amp and add a bit of reverb to make it blend better with the other instruments or the acoustics of the venue. in the worst case, you add so many effects that you might as well sing with a full playback (just my opinion of course). one can do this realtime, meaning that the signal you sing into your mic is changed before it comes out of the speakers. autotune also exists for this use, not just as a recording studio plug-in. so what happens in effect is that shania definitely sings live, but what the audience hears is a completely changed signal. she never made a fuss about it and always admitted it freely.

what i want to say in general: all you aspiring singers out there, never compare yourself to a recording artist. the live voice doesn't work and doesn't sound like that. i worked with lots of people who felt disheartened because they constantly compared themselves to recordings of people who are completely overproduced. yes, the perfect (or better: fake) sound is obviously needed to sell records, but singing live is a completely different ballgame. it's quite sad that artists feel so much pressure to even cheat live. the human voice is not perfect, and never will be. i am very happy to admit that even as a highly trained professional, i have really bad days - i am the low-energy-type who then sings flat. human and nothing to feel ashamed of.

Wow! That totally surprises me! I knew that recorded voices could be made to sound better using various effects but I had no idea that this was possible when someone is singing live!

It's good to hear that even professionals have bad days! Very reassuring!!

Hmm. I REALLY want to see a teacher. I just need someone to show me and give me immediate feedback on what I'm doing right/from and HOW I'm doing it and what it means, etc...then I'll be able to work towards utilising those newly-learned things in songs I want to sing...and especially those songs I feel I can't sing well now.

This forum is excellent!!! I've learnt so much already!

You should! You would love it! Do you think you'll be able to find someone in your area?

I don't know...there aren't a lot of them around here...and those that are, I can't get to them easily (I don't drive).

That's tricky. I hope you find someone close enough.

Where are you again Eunice ? We may be able to recommend someone !

I'm pretty far away from everyone here...Australia. lol. The Gold Coast, Australia. I've been looking over the months / years half-heartedly for voice teachers in my area, and there are a few, but they don't have any information listed about them (usually), beyond just a single line type ad in the Yellow Pages, etc. Also, my area is fairly small, but...since I don't drive, it's very awkward to get buses between areas. The bus service isn't the same as in a main / capital city. Once you leave the main highway area and beach-side, the buses are very few and far between I'm afraid.

On a side note, with that Lady Gaga song, I can’t actually detect any auto-tune! I’m obviously not tone deaf, but…I can never tell if anyone’s using auto-tune unless it’s really obvious and computerised by the Pussycat Dolls and such other similar things.

Am I just so used to people singing in tune without requiring any digital enhancement that I never expect, or even know how to recognise, the use of auto-tune? Is it because I myself sing so PERFECTLY in tune that I expect the same from everyone else!? LMAO j/k.

Eunice - here's a list of the Estill teachers in Australia :

http://www.trainmyvoice.com/instructor_search.php?view=3


I don't know if any of them will be near you, but they may be worth a try and can at least inform you of any events happening in Australia.

For auto-tune, it's often difficult to hear when it's being used if you're not used to Studio work, but it doesn't really matter if you can hear it or not to be honest!

EDIT : here's a list of forthcoming events in Australia

http://www.trainmyvoice.com/courses_search.php?view=3

Thanks rosfrog!!

One of those teachers is near me, sort of...not really, not sort of. She's the only one in my entire state, but at least she IS on the Gold Coast, which is my area. She is in Elanora and I'm on Chevron Island, and the two are about a 30-40 minute drive, which isn't bad but the buses...I don't even think there ARE any buses that go to Elanora!

Maybe she could come to ME though...I'll look into that. I always think I'd prefer leaving my own home for any sort of lessons, but if that's not possible, someone coming to me is fine.

Those events are in different states to me, sadly. I can't afford to fly that far away! lol.

I will definitely look into that Gold Coast Estill teacher though.

Hi again Eunice !

I think it very unlikely that an Estill teacher will travel to you - not without charging you the lesson fee for the time of travel - so you may end up paying for three hours and getting only one. Could be pricey.

These teachers are great, but usually very busy people and won't normally consider travelling far for a student unless their travel time and expenses are paid additionally.

Some teachers offer lessons via video conference - this is becoming increasingly popular and whilst many people complain that they don't believe it to be any good, it's good enough for major record labels and professional singers the world over, so it should be good enough for the rest of us!

I don't know of any Estill teachers who offer videoconference lessons, but Complete Vocal Institute in Denmark certainly do, as do many other evidence-based teachers.

Shame about the Estill events - but do keep checking the page, they often update it with other ones and perhaps, if you can get enough people together, your Estill teacher could organise an Event right next to you?

On another note, Eunice did you buy the 'Popular Singing' book? I had mine delivered on Friday and it's really good and easy to follow. Worth trying!

No, I didn't! lol *sheepish* I forgot all about it, I'm afraid!! lol I think I need to see someone in person before I get into any more books and stuff...(or at least video-conferencing, definitely. I'm not against this at all. It'd WIDELY increase my choices)...so I can start out on the right track and not get confused or misinformed by any info I don't quite understand in a book, you know?