I'm a flute player working on improving my intonation and I'm finding it to be a bit of a battle. I am working with my tuner and if I eyeball it constantly I can keep pretty much in tune, but I can't HEAR when I am not in tune.

I want to play in a group, but obviously need to be able to play in tune and hear when I am not so that I can make the necessary adjustments. My teacher is trying to teach me this so we have played in unison, she playing deliberately flat or sharp and me in tune. The idea is that I can learn to hear the "buzz" - which apparently happens when one is not in tune with the other. I have only heard it once and even though I am listening hard out for it, I've not heard it again. If I am to play with others I know I have to be able to hear this. Is my hearing faulty or something?

Does anyone else have this issue and do you have any helpful hints?

if you're nearly in tune, but not quite, it's not really a buzz -- it's more like a series of regular pulses, called beats, which are caused by the interference between the two frequencies. the closer you get in being in tune, the slower the pulse, until it disappears entirely for a perfectly in tune note. if you have some device that can generate a steady constant tone (many tuners can do this), practice altering the intonation around the tone (flat, then in tune, then sharp); you'll hear the beats pretty easily.

Thanks! I do have a tuner that does that! I'm going to give it a go.

Oh gosh. I just can't hear it! Been listening and listening but can't hear any beats. Playing flat, playing sharp, but no beats! Darn it!!

OK, forget the flute for the moment, turn on the vacuum cleaner or the microwave and hum along in tune whicever you use, now raise (or lower) your pitch slightly and you should be able to hear and feel the effect you are looking for.

Then with the flute put it together with the joints only just making a seal (ie so its longer than normal) now try playing a note and and then play it on the tuner and then play the two together. It might be easier to hear at the low end of the flute's range.

It might also be worth trying it in fifths.

Hi, i just wanted to know how you play the flute out of tune (i'm learning the violin, of course there are no frets). I know with the flute you press down the "knobs" - sorry i don't know what you call them! I kown with the trumpet the notes/tuning are to do with the mouth and tongue, ---is this the similar with the flute then??

yes, it is. blowing harder or softer, or changing the angle of your embouchure can both affect tuning. the tuning also changes as the instrument warms up, so you need to be able to tell when that's happening, and compensate for it (otherwise you'd have to stop and retune in the middle of a piece).

I smiled when I read "how do you play a flute out of tune?" Actually, really easily!! Unfortunately!

As a relative newbie to flute, I was surprised at how easy it is to be "out of tune" compared to the other wind instruments I play. Even more surprising is how acutely aware I am now when a flute is out of tune. I'm performing a pantomime this week and the flautist (post grade 8) is so sharp. He's using my flute and having to pull the headjoint out miles just to be in tune on initial tuning (I rarely have to pull it out very far - but maybe I just play flat! ).

Remember the string players' motto: 'Tis better to be sharp than out of tune.

Lucky you to have such a good ear! I am just beginning now to recognise when it is not in tune. Can't hear any beats yet (!!!) but just now hearing when it is out of tune when playing with others - just because it sounds bad - and the beginnings of hearing it when it is out of tune when I am on my own just practicing. I practice constantly with the tuner and VERY gradually my ear is beginning to recognise how things should sound. Have figured out to flatten the notes in the upper register, and sharpen in the lower and the middle seems to be mostly right all by itself except for E which needs a little sharpening. This is a slow process but I'm determined to get there!

thanks for your interesying replies. Sounds a bit like a nightmare!! Best of luck all you flute players!

Neenee, if you have learnt to hear whether you are in tune in less than a month you are lucky!

It has taken me years. And I can still very rarely hear 'beats', essential for tuning a cello without an electronic tuner - though I think I might nearly be at that point.

Using a tuning does help if you (like me) really don't know whether you are in tune or not.

Some (rare) teachers do try to teach aural skills as part of instrumental training. I had the idea of trying taking the practical musicianship exams to help improve my ear as I couldn't ever imagine passing the grade 6 aural. I couldn't actually find any teacher who had ever used the practical musicianship exams and even grade 1 is VERY difficult if you struggle with pitch and musical memory. I did eventually find one whom I knew did a lot of improvisation and was therefore intersted in aural approaches.

I also started Kodaly lessons (with the beautiful Cyrilla). I have been going just over a year now and thta has helped.

I spent 5 or 6 years learning the cello as a child and never had any idea if I was in tune (no electronic tuners then). I started lessons again four years ago (after many decades) and it was probably only after a couple of years that I even began to hear. I have been playing in various essembles for three years and I would say that its only quite recently that I have begun to have the ability to listen to others tuning as I play and to adjust my tuning, even then I only really tend to hear long notes, like final chords.

So don't give up. Try lots of different methods. And whatever others may say to the contrary you can defintely learn ot hear.

I found a teacher when I was preparing for my grade 6 exam who teaches theory and aural. I had already passed Grade 5 theory some years ago but she was brilliant for the aural and really helpful. She helped me listen and since my grade 6 exam, my regular flute lessons are all about playing in tune with the tuner, with the piano and with my teacher on another flute. And listening hard. And it is really really good and I'm finding the lessons to be so very helpful.

Just one question .... what is Kodaly?

Neenee, there's a recent thread in the Teachers' Forum:

http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=39802

Basically, it's teaching general musicianship through singing. Singing activates the inner hearing and the use of solfa in particular really helps with intonation. We use many activities that promote listening to other parts, too.

Do PM me or Swisscello if you'd like to know more.