I'm looking for advice please on what to do with a chronic non-practicer.

Complicating factor is that he is 17 years old - yes, virtually an adult - and CLEARLY I should not be involved.

More complications: he is in his last year of school, is a music scholar (piano is his second study), is meant to take grade 8 piano in the summer.

More complications: he receives a fee discount from the school and free lessons.

More complications: I would be more than happy for him to quit (what a relief!) - I don't even mind losing the fee discount. But he does not want to quit, he just wants to muddle along (not practicing). I feel it is disrespectful, at his age, to arrive at weekly lessons having done almost no practice or just a half hour for the week.

He has no self-motivation to practice and will virtually never practice unless I nag. When I nag, he practices after first quarreling. I hate nagging and honestly do not care if he practices. But I do care that he is letting down his teacher and the school.

What should I do? It's having an awful effect on our relationship.

17 is still very young, I think you have every right to get involved and deep down your lazy teenager will be glad you did. You say that he doesn't want to quit - he may be really enjoying it even though the lack of practicing suggests otherwise. I know when I was in my late teens I would put off doing schoolwork and practice even though I really loved these things. I don't understand why I did this! I don't know, I guess it may have been because it's difficult and you think, "how on earth am I ever going to do this well?" so you put off doing it at all. Or when something's not going well in a practice session and you feel like your efforts aren't resulting in much progress, you stop practicing.
I think you should continue to support him, perhaps do something to try and motivate him, like go to a really inspiring live performance together or suggest he takes part in a local festival. Perhaps step back with the nagging for a bit and maybe it will all sink in and he will have an epiphany! Don't worry too much about letting the teachers down or wasting the reduced fee. For one thing your son (?) seems to be enjoying the lessons, something keeps him wanting to come back every week so it's not a waste if he is getting something positive out of it. Secondly, teachers deal with pupils like this all the time. Most pupils go through periods of not practicing at some point. He has got to nearly grade 8 standard at 17 so he must have practiced quite a bit at some point and I suspect will probably start doing it again.

Been there. I really can't give you any positive advice either. I eventually went for the 'quit' option with mine - in fact two of mine - at the same level. But at least, on the plus side, they've gone far enough to pick it up again in later life if they want to, and your son will be the same. That's what I did myself, and it's a thoroughly different and more exciting ball game when it's a rediscovery.

Is he actually likely to be entered for Grade 8 soon? One thing that worked with one of my kids (at Grade 6 and quite a bit younger, but it still might be something to think about) was to tell him that if he wanted to continue he'd obviously benefit from a goal, so after some discussion I entered him for the exam. I told him I didn't care if he failed - that was up to him - but on serious (last minute) contemplation he decided he didn't want to fail, and passed. Not by a huge margin, because he still left it all far too late, but literally in the last few days he really focussed hard. He still focussed for quite a bit after that, having found a new lease of life, but I had too much of a feeling of deja vu the next time the apathy kicked in, and was sick of pushing, so I just let it go, feeling that I'd done my bit, and provided him with the wherewithall to return to it if and when he ever makes that positive decision for himself.

Sorry I'm not more use! But you can play psychological games till you're blue in the face; at the end of the day you can't make 'em do it!

On the other hand - is it possible that he really doesn't need to do much practice to make half reasonable progress in his teacher's eyes? Would a more demanding teacher make any difference?

He's at an age where he really does need to be taking responsibility for his own action (and inaction!), as you so rightly say: but it's also a world in which teens really have little responsibility of their own to take as yet, and very little incentive to do so, either. I've certainly found it incredibly hard to get either of my teens to take any responsibility merely on my asking: there has to be some tangible benefit to them also before they will recognise that need and rise to it. In the case of one, the availablility of cash has made all the difference: for the other it has been doing a stint of incredbly demanding work experience that has helped - the cash-hungry one has come to realise that there is an extra fiver in the pot if the bathroom is cleaned, and the work-experience one, after having to organise a lot of catering in order to keep going, has suddenly realised that food doesn't grow on trees, and laundry doesn't do itself, and has taken far more interest in contributing to mealtimes and also in how to work the washing machine. In neither case did nagging do the trick - both discovered their need to help me out because of other circumstances, and I suspect that your pianist son may well fall into a similar category. A tough way to let him realise where things are at would be to rope him in to doing a stint in a concert, perhaps: or if there is some other activity which really attracts him more, you might possibly get some mileage out of him by denying him that option until practice is done. It is an incredibly difficult thing to do, to sit back and let one or two things from Real Life actually happen to our teens - rather than protecting them and trying our level best to optimise their chances, but sooner or later they really do need to stand on their own feet, and make their own mistakes. It can feel rather sad when kids reject sage advice from their elders, but I wonder if it isn't better to let them do some belly flops whilst still at home, where at least we can provide a cushion of affection to give them respite, rather than waiting until they are really out and alone in the world? I'd be interested to hear what other parents of similarly aged kids think on this one....

Well, this parent thinks you're right. I wish I'd allowed more bellyflops to happen in the past, though; mine think they don't have to take responsibility for anything other than dressing themselves.

I have one too.....
He loves playing in school and area bands (which he does virtually every day) but is useless at even starting to think about formal practice fpr his lessons. He is also a busy sportsman and as a result, more often than not his instrument gets left behind at school because of sports commitments or 'because we were let out late and I'd have missed the bus if I'd gone via the music block' (where all instruments must be kept during the day).
I would love him to get that elusive grade 8 before he leaves school as I'm sure that if he doesn't there will be a part of him that will wish he'd put the practice in while it would still have been relatively easy to do so. However, given that he has 4 hard-core A levels, university applications, steady girlfriend, county sports and music commitments.... I could go on.... and currently really enjoys all the ensemble playing he does, I don't feel that adding pressure to practice will help him to enjoy his music either now or in the future. Kids are only kids, even when they are strapping 17 year olds, and sometimes they need a chance to learn from their mistakes (how true!) but also sometimes they just need to chill. I suppose it depends on the individual circumstances.
Good luck to everyone out there in a similar position.

17 year old boys are full of confusion and doubt. If he is going through adolescence he will seem like he is lazy, but in fact he will asking himself many questions. Having one or two friends round for an hour when he is rehearsing will make all the difference.

I am SO grateful to all of you who have replied. Thank you so much.

So, taking all your various suggestions, how about:

1/ Stop nagging. Will never nag about music again.

2/ Say to him that I'd like to encourage him to practice, even if it's just 5-10 minutes a day, so he can pass gr 8 (which despite his immense laziness, he'd quite like to pass). And that I suggest the best way to do this is that he is not allowed online until he's practiced piano at least 10 minutes (little and often!). If he's not happy with this, I'll suggest he quit.

3/ Learn to get over my embarrassment regarding his teacher (at the root of everything this is what bothers me most. I don't like my son being so disrespectful of his teacher. I feel that if you take music lessons (at his age) you have made a contract with your teacher and your end of the contract is to practice, or else you are wasting everyone's time and are learning that you can get away with indolence - but I am going to have to chill, I guess).

What do you all think?!

The Motto in our house throughout the school years was/still is "Fail to Prepare, Prepared to Fail" This applies to music and academic.

Practise is something that can be extremely boring when you are a teenager. Your "nagging" only stresses you - he is oblivious to it! He has switched off! Yes he is being disrespectful to his teacher to arrive unprepared but at this juncture he really cant be bothered one way or the other.

As an incentive you could offer him a reward for a good mark on his grade 8, but not a pass, although some disagree with this I have found it effective with my son when doing the higher grades.

Teenagers hate to be nagged. You could simply leave him alone. The minute you stop talking about his music, he may quite possibly do the practise of his own accord.

Talk to his piano teacher and tell him what your strategy is so that he (the teacher) doesnt think you are not interested but that you are approaching it from another angle.

I also have a 17 year old son. I often use the strategy of asking him for his advice. I say why I'm worried, outline all the factors and ask what he thinks I should do. If he then says "I think you should get off my case" I might say "yes but I dont want you blaming me in four years time when you begin to regret it". If he understands that and still wants me to chill then that is his way of taking some of the responsibility which I think he should feel at his age. So far I have been very impressed with the answers and insights that I get from mine, his advice is worth having.

Certainly stopping nagging did have an incredibly beneficial effect in our house - and we have had to deal with a problem which posed risk of actual physical harm, where it feels neglectful to back off and let things happen. As parents of teens all become aware, the language we use has to be much more in the nature of negotiation at this stage - it isn't enough to say, go and do your practice, and instead we have to present the more adult interaction of, remember, you're best getting that practice out of the way before you get lost in the world of online....and then dropping the subject entirely even if it isn't followed through. Once you've mentioned once that it isn't so very respectful towards the teacher to come unprepared, and why, then you really have to back off on that one too.

Another thing I found incredibly useful - when a parallel situation arose to the one my teen was involved in, being able to point out how similar the situations are. Thus if a teen won't sort out medication, but is critical of someone smoking and not quitting, one can show how both involve neglecting one's best interests as far as health goes - and right, we can criticise the smoker for not sorting the problem in the face of obvious health problems, but actually, is that so very different from not taking medication which is also needed to avoid complications? In the case of the teacher - they're putting in work and effort, but getting knocked back by no input from the student's side, so if you find some activity into which the student pours care and attention, but doesn't get any positive feedback, then you can use that parallel as an example of what you mean. And you're right - the embarrassment rightly is his, not yours: you are very much in the process of saying, "over to you now" to him.

I wonder how he really feels about doing grade 8 in the fairly near future.
With other academic commitments and as this is his second instrument maybe it's one thing too many and not practising is one way of avoiding being ready?
If he enjoys playing maybe being allowed to do that without grade 8 hanging over him at this time might help.
Maybe he's found it relatively easy to progress up til now and it's hard dealing with having to put in smore effort. My eldest was like that when she started 6th form. She said that up to GCSE she'd never really had to put in too much effort. Being at the top end of her year group academically she could manage more than adequetely without really trying. Starting on A level was totally different and she couldn't handle it.

I'm two years younger than your son, and I went through this last year. I went through about a month of not really wanting to practice at all, and not really having any incentive to practice either-I'm self taught, so no teacher to answer to, and I was planning on doing my GCSE music on voice. However, after about a month, I began to realise how badly my playing had deteriorated within just that short month. That was incentive to practice in itself! It's entirely possible, if not likely, that he will just start practicing again on his own when he realises that he will lose a wide range of the skills he has built up if he doesn't.
Another thing that always motives me to practice is seeing people who are so much better than I am playing-one of the girls in last year of sixth form plays piano and violin, and she's so excellent at both that it really drives me to practice in the hope I'll get to her standard someday soon. Does he know anyone who is of a similar standard/slightly more advanced than him? It's an excellent reason to practice!

I'd leave him to get on with it, or not get on with it as the case is here, and let his teacher deal with him. He might even end up practising of his own accord.

You could have a quiet word with his teacher and say that you wouldn't be up in arms if he/she put more pressure on...or even adopted the 'quit or commit' ploy. A nagging parent* becomes background noise, but if a normally easy going teacher turns the screws it can make a world of difference.

*No offence intended - I'm one too!

Among other things, I'd have a quiet word with teacher. Sometimes it can be hard to spot a pupil who's going light on the practising if they're making progress, although it might be slow. Maybe teacher's going to turn the thumbscrews on her own at some point. On the other hand, maybe she would like some input from you so she knows that more can be asked of your son.

Is he working on the exam pieces now - does he like them, are they too difficult - would he be better with other ones? etc etc

My son is 2 years younger than yours, and if he doesn't practise trumpet after a suitable while I threaten to cancel the lessons - waste of money, etc - and he begins to practise again, although I have to remind him to do so frequently.

I also had a non-practising teenage piano pupil (mother and I had several conversations). Mother trying to avoid telling child to practice. We tried all sorts of strategies. In the end, I picked one of the alternative exam pieces (child will not have realised it's on the list ) - mother knew the piece from her own piano playing days, and normal service is resumed - mother has just decided to continue to "nag", although it's not quite as necessary now because for some reason pupil likes the music atm.

Reminds me of a teenager I once knew - me!! My lack of practice used to drive my teacher insane - at one stage he called my mum in and threatened to terminate lessons.

My parents backed off completely and didn't nag at all. So, a few months later, after doing very poorly in a school music exam (scraping a pass), and breaking down mid-piece in a school music evening, I worked out that I needed to practice. Six months later I'd got distinction for Gr5 piano, distinction in school music exams, and best of all, a much improved relationship with my teacher (it's amazing how much more time you have to learn when you're not having to explain why you've not practiced!!).

Hope that helps,
Tom

Teacher / parent communication is vital. It's amazing what you discover when you talk to the teacher. And the reverse is also true: as a teacher, it's amazing what I discover when I talk to the parent and find out what is really happening at home! Maybe the teacher isn't unhappy with your son's progress? Or maybe they have a good relationship and she realises that he is in an "off-practice" phase and is waiting for him to resume some level of commitment?

But always having to be on his case in the way you are is stressful for you and seems to be fairly non-productive for him. I would just stop and wait to see what happens. At the very least, it won't exacerbate the deteriorating relationship between you. And remember, whatever happens, you have given him enough now for him to be able to pick up again later; it will never have been wasted.

I know this situation only roo well..... My eldest daughter could be a very good Sax player if she put her mind to it. I think 17 is a difficult age. I've tried lots of ways to encourage her to practice including not nagging but it hasn't worked. She finds it hard with her younger sister working harder and progressing more.

I don't think there is a solution unless it's one they come to themselves. Perhaps someone should invent some fairy dust to sprinkle on difficult teens.

Im only 22 myself (im not a parent )

I remember a lot of my actions run off adrenaline, at that age.. and still do , im learning piano and spend hours practicing because I want to achieve something.


He may not be really understanding what it means to be so close to a great grade. You nagging and so much so from the teacher that he`s lost his way. (I understand you only nag because something changed in him.)

There was a suggestion I read earlier to take him to a concert.. sounds a good idea.. it sure would inspire me.

My 2nd best thought ~ take him to an open day at the royal college of music. Get someone there to have a chat with him, a demonstration to.

My top thought, ring up the teacher, find a piano player the teacher really respects and organize that person to play a piece at a venue and get your son to speak with him/her about what doors can open up for him.

Or the teacher pretend to be unwell one day .. and someone else to fill in.. who has a bit of attitude and put your son straight about not practicing. Maybe even someone from the forum would dare to do this.

Another idea.. get some children to listen to him play.. and pupils from the school can ask him some question... provoked with the question "Do you think you can get to grade 8 and will you become a master" and another " I practice so much but I cant get there and I feel like giving up.. what advice would you give about how to practice properly?"
There is a number of question they could ask.. but he has to play for them first and not know their going to ask questions until the head of school or person in charge says so.
~ Teacher of school always laid out questions that we should ask the professional.. ~ if none of these things un-confuse him.. then I have failed you.

If the last idea works then im a master of the psychological mind

Does the piano matter? Does it matter if he does grade 8 now or not? Would it prohibit him from pursuing his chosen career? I would say, if not, then let him do what he wants but if yes, then take up some of the other suggestions and keep nagging!

On the question of the scholarship, he is presumbly more than entitled to it on the basis of his first instrument so I wouldn't worry what his teachers think at all about the piano.

Thank you very much for all these great ideas everyone!

Claudia'sMum, you are right, gr 8 piano doesn't matter at all (other than I guarantee he'd be very proud in the future to have passed it!). I just hate the idea of skiving off - and not being particularly bothered about it! Either he should do it (with some level of consistent practice) or give up. I guess I don't like the idea of him "getting away with" not practicing. Deep inside, of course, I also think it's a shame for him to get so close to gr8 and not to get there, but it's not a big deal.

But I am no longer nagging - I've given up. The result is that he is now not practicing at all.

Don't worry, he can always come back to it. It is really hard to keep going when you have A levels and other things to concentrate on. Many of my school friends stopped at earlier grades like 5 and 6 but took it up again in their 20's and got their grade 8 distinctions. I think much more satisfying when it is something you really want to do.