Beth got 123 for Grade 4 Piano and 117 for Grade 2 Voice.
Jamie got 117 for Grade 4 Piano.
We are delighted.
Dora

Well done to both of them

Well done

Wonderful news!

Congratulations to you all!

Still no results here for Grade 7 Flute

Congratulations to Beth and Jamie - they must be delighted

I hope Emsoboe doesn't have to wait too much longer

I guess there's no-one in the office at the Music Service and all schools are closed because of weather. I'm not worrying about the result as the exam went ok. It's just annoying waiting so long

Well done to Beth and Jamie!!

We got the Flute result today. No comment sheet yet. a very unexpected result of 118. Overall the lowest set of marks ever including 9 for Aural. Will have to wait and see what the details are before any decision on how/whether to proceed is made. Last aural mark was 16 at the same grade last session and she's done loads of practice since then.

To be honest feeling a bit shocked. Never have a result in mind but she really was playing the pieces very well. There's no obvious weak areas in the supporting tests.

I'm not disappointed in her, there was nothing more she could have done, but I am further disillusioned by the system.

Very well done to Emsoboe!
N

Oh, dear! I imagine you are feeling as shell-shocked as we were after daughter's very unexpected and lowest ever 115 for recent grade 6 cello..... In our case it was the marks for the pieces which were dramatically lower than we have become accustomed to. My daughter's very experienced cello teacher tells us the examiner is a chump, and we have already moved on to some extent. When we told daughter's clarinet teacher about the result he said the current crop of unexpectedly low marks is all down to bright young, and much more harshly marking, examiners gradually replacing the old school, but soft, organist examiners.....

Son had a lowest ever as well this year (I mean 2009), and the crit sheet was no help, but he took it on the chin and moved on, because he knows that it was just a mixture of how he played on the day (though he couldn't pinpoint any serious errors) and a tough examiner, and that sometimes that's what happens. Obviously it's a disappointing aural mark for emsoboe, and out of line with the many other aural marks she's received, but I hope it doesn't shake her confidence - she's had enough good marks to know that it's not the norm for her.

It's still a terrific achievement for a player of her age, so many congratulations and I hope she isn't disheartened.

Emsoboe has still done very well, even if the mark is lower than anticipated. She's still above the average mark for the grade, and by grade 7 only the best flautists are still entering, so congratulations to her.

Aural always seems a bit of a lottery to me. As discussed before, it's almost impossible to predict what anyone will get in that section, and a more average mark of 14 or 15 would have seen Emsoboe well into the Merit category. I'd just put it behind you and take her teacher's opinion of her playing as likely to be a more accurate reflection of her ability than this grade 7 mark.

Thanks everyone! Really appreciate all the positive comments.

She's not mortified or anything by the mark more confused. I've looked back through all her crit sheets and it's amungst the lowest set of marks she's had. To be honest if it had been Recorder, with no prior specialist teaching and a flat instrument, or Oboe when she was ill it would have at least been understandable.

I have wondered for a long time about how valuable exams are and they seem more like a necessary evil (Uni etc) than an acurate measure of skill.

The other candidates marks were perhaps a little lower but there was a spread. I did wonder if it was a harsh eximiner but doesn't seem so and he wasn't particularly young.

It reaffirms my believe that ABRSM don't have it right in their relationship with examiners and ability monitor their responses.

We had a disappointing Grade 5 Flute result last December of 115, her lowest mark ever too. It wasn't entirely unexpected by me at least because her playing really deteriorated in the weeks before the exam. In hindsight I think Beth finds the autumn term the hardest and she had had to deal with the move from primary school to secondary plus diagnosis of severe dyslexia and a significant language disorder in the weeks and days even before the exam. I think those diagnosis were a real blow to her confidence at the time although I think they are helpful to her now because at least she knows why she can't do what her friends can do.
I guess I'm saying our result was understandable.
But to go from 16 to 9 on the aural at the same grade does seem hard to understand. There doesn't seem to be much "luck" in the aural, not enough to explain that difference anyway.
I will be very glad to see the back of these Grade exams and I'm sure you will too.
For what it is worth I gave Beth the choice of retaking the exam or not. She elected not to and her teacher never even raised it so we just moved onwards.
I am spending a small fortune on aural and while it is absolutely worth it in that Beth's aural skills are improving all the time my money is on a 9 for the aural at both Grade 6 and Grade 7 this year. To that extent at least I'm with you on disillusionment in the system.
I'm sure Emsoboe will move onwards and upwards once the dust settles.
Dora

The amount of Aural support she's had in the last term is huge. My friend helps her loads and then there were group and one to one aural sessions too. I can't believe the 9 is accurate especially not after 16.

Will have to wait for the comment sheet.

J has a fair pair of results I think with 122 for Grade 3 piano and 120 for Grade 6 violin.

He's 12 now and while his music is important to him he's not a kid who has to be asked to stop practising...

I do think the 'system' has got less fair in recent years, based on my students results, but these results seem to be what was expected.

Well done to J, and to emsoboe

Congratulations to your son!

So sorry that you have received an unexpected result. Violin daughter's piano teacher changed a few years ago from Associated Board to Trinity Guildhall, because she had 2 sessions of really unexpected marks in her pupils. Your post has unnerved me a bit. Violin daughter hopes to take Grade 8 violin this session. SHe has put it off for a year, hoping to consolidate things. Aural is always a bit of a lottery. Now I am a little worried.
Violinma

I still haven't got the comment sheet but I wouldn't worry that the same thing will happen. I think this is a bit of a freak result. I'm going to ask AB to look into it in some way even if I don't make a formal appeal. I need to get the comment sheet first.

I wonder if the examiner didn't like the fact she played back on her instrument rather than singing for part of the aural. I know this is allowed and it's something she's always done at the higher grades. Given she was happy with the way Aural went overall there has to be some explaination.

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Well done to J, and to emsoboe
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Yes. Congratulations to J and also to emsoboe. It is true that most students don't get this far so at Grade 7 they are being measured against only better students. 118 is a great mark in that context.
Dora

As you may recall, I think there's plenty of luck involved, which was why I started this earlier thread.

I'm a bit puzzled about your conviction that Beth is bound for 9s in her upcoming exams. From what you've said in other posts it sounds like her aural skills are rather good, and if no luck is involved, why should she not do well?

I'm also puzzled by the reason for your disillusionment. I'm sure you don't intend to say that you should be able to buy good results by throwing money at the problem, but that is a little bit what it sounds like. Do you think she is bound to do badly because the aural tests should be testing something different (at which she would do better?), because you know she will get mad examiners, or what? Sorry that this is rather off topic, but I'm curious.

We've had unexpectedly good aural results occasionally, and one or two disappointments. I ahve to say that I would never question a result that was better than I expected so I wouldn't do the opposite either! For many children it is a bit of a lottery as some tests are definitely easier than others. At grade 7 (TG) you have to say which of three possible modulations has occurred. The piece is minor and one of the modulations stays minor while the other two go into the major. If you get the minor one that's easier to identify than to have to choose which of the major ones it was. The only fairer way to do it would be to ask many of each test, then a proper picture of the candidate's ability could be established.

For the record, my son got one of the major ones but worked out (or guessed?) correctly which it was but he might just as easily have got it wrong. For his previous (AB) grade 7 on another instrument he did quite poorly on the aural tests. I had expected him to do better, but given you only get asked one question for each test then on a bad day it would be easy to make several mistakes and end up with a relatively poor mark. The mark 'cost' him a distinction but I've never looked at it like that. A piece could go horribly wrong (or unexpectedly right) too. My eldest once set off playing his piece at a festival at an appropriate but entirely unpractised fast speed. My heart was in my mouth the whole time but it worked and he did really well. Another time it would have fallen to pieces and that would have been that.

I think at the lower grades it's easier to be confident of a child's aural skills. I'd be surprised if my youngest made more than a silly slip at the level he's at (grade 2) but the higher you go, the harder it is and the more chance there is of getting it wrong, even if you've had plenty of training and practice.

Its hard for us all to comment on the exam performances of others, but your point about 'becoming accustomed to marks' and then seeing a different spread at Grade 6 to grade 5 made me sit up. I still come across teachers who are not aware that the marking criteria for pieces at grades 5 and 6 are quite different. I do still also occasioanlly meet teachers who wish they knew what the criteria for marking pieces was, not realising that they are published and open for all to read.

It is also a bit harsh the teacher saying 'the examiner is a chump', on one meeting, does she know him/her?If there were any truth in an overall policy of having more harsher markers, then why does the average mark for AB exams stay almost the same, year in year out. And the AB has always been replacing older retired examiners with younger ones, nothing new there either.

Over the last year my kids have had a freelance chap in his late 60s, a middle aged woman and one of the 'bright young ones' you mention, all specialists on different instruments. There were ups and downs in all three, but no pattern based on age or experience.


Just read Banjogirls's post and I agree with the comment about aurals getting a little less predictable as they get harder, and perhaps that's the way it should be. There is much mroe to learn and be able to do at the higher grades, therefore, more can go wrong. I've had lots of kids who can spot a perfect cadence a mile off, but not an interupted one if it hits them in the face. Cadence wrong, therefore the chords will be wrong. Modulations, again, many can do rel maj to min, but how many feel confident in telling the difference bewteen the subdominant and the supertonic minor?

What do you need to able to do at grade 1/2/3? Sing a phrase back, well if they can do it in practices in lessons, there's a good chance they'll do it in an exam. Spot rhythmic/melodic change, a little harder, perhaps. Clap the pulse, again, skills easy to replicate in a lesson, say if a piece is loud/quiet/smooth/deteched etc, a limited number of options, in fact only two possible answers for each question.

I think something must have gone dreadfully wrong in the Aural aspect of this exam. We did get caught out at Grade 5/6 and above on aural. Given the child in question has done lots of exams including 3 other Grade 7's the mark is odd. More so because in the last term she has had lots of help with Aural from more than one source (not that I thought for a second this was anything to do with teaching). I tend to go for a mis-understanding on someone's part. whether that's the candidate or examiner we will have to wait and see.

The most frustrating thing is not the mark but the amount of work undertaken to improve. The first time she took grade 7 (along with 3 other exams) she didn't understand the aural and scored 11 (with a flat Recorder). In the past year she's got loads more practice had some excellent teaching and scores 9 (this was the only exam taken).

I don't know how common it is to play back on instrument rather than sing. Maybe this is the first time the examiner has come across it, and perhaps that's got something to do with it. This is only speculation as I'm at a loss to explain it.

All good points. However, the higher grade aural exams do allow those who have a more natural talent to prosper, rather than those who need a more guidance and help. For those who have perfect pitch (and there are lots of kids who do), many of the questions at the higher grades are quite easy. I've had one child who got 18 for grade 8, and we did so little prep on it because he could just hear the chords. These are type of pupils where you explain how to give shape, articulation and direction to a phrase at grade 6, and they just do it instinctivley after that, without having to put copious amounts of pencil markings over every single phrase. And that is one of the more important criteria at grade 6 and above in the pieces. It's expected to be there and appropriate at only the pass level at 6-8, yet it is in the merit category for under grade 5.

Also worth remembering that for string players, the difficult process of vibrato is expected and much more important from grade 6 onwards.

I've had pupils who use their instrument to play back, but I've dissuaded quite a lot not to do it, particularly those who play the piano, the physical walk round the piano, finding the note and then playing back does eat away valuable seconds while you're concentrating on remembering the melody.

Daughter doesn't have perfect pitch and she does need practice. For a long time aural was never explained properly to her so she got practice and help to improve. The last term she's had a lot more explaination of it and feels she understands what's being asked of her more.

On the musicality side. Again it's something that was left out of her learning but it's something she has done a lot of in the last year. I don't think this is going to be the problem with pieces. We have taken measures to ensure that she was playing the pieces as musically as possible (accompanist helps loads with this) and got a second opinion on her sound. I'm not so much bothered about the marks for the pieces even though I think they were perhaps lower than expected. If it was musicality it would have been picked up on previously. She won't be rushing into grade 8 anyway, as was the one for Sight Reading where she often gets full marks or drops only one.

It doesn't worry me when weaknesses are pointed out as these can be used to improve. I'm more concerned that there isn't much more we could do to help with Aural. If as you are saying it works against those who need to be taught how to do it I have to question why it's on the exam. Surely the whole point of any aspect is that it's to test how a candidate has improved or offer advice as to where improvement can be made. Not setting people up to fail.

As I mentioned in another thread about my daughter's result, she has done other grade 6 exams and done very well in them; we, at least, are very well aware that the criteria change between grades 5 and 6. Knowing her teacher as I do, I am prepared to believe that she is entirely ignorant of the published criteria. However, as I said she is a very experienced teacher, including at one of the specialist music schools. She has put many many pupils in for exams over the years so is well aware of what kind of performance gets what kind of mark.

As for calling the examiner, "a chump", I was paraphrasing a bit! The teacher is Italian and probably wouldn't use that expression. It captures the general tenor of her comments when she read the examiner's remarks on the mark sheet. In essence, I think all she was saying is that my daughter's playing of the pieces prior to the exam compared very favourably with that of other pupils who had done well at the same grade in the past.

No one will ever know how my daughter played in the exam that day - though her accompanist was impressed, and she, also, is not inexperienced. I am certainly prepared to believe she didn't play well enough to get good marks. Who knows?

I didn't say I gave any credence at all to my daughter's clarinet teachers comments about old school examiners - though he had the information from someone more involved than he in the whole examination business. I was just throwing the comments into the pot, so that someone could disagree!! Actually, my daughter had had her very same examiner before, and done rather well out of him on previous occasions, which is why I rather suspect that she did, indeed, have a somewhat off day.

Probably a bit irrelevant, but this caught my eye as in my recent (also grade 7) exam the examiner said, "now you have the choice, would you like to play it back on your violin or sing it?", so I would have thought it was reasonably common to do so.

N

Agreed. But, as I've said on another thread, No 3 son, who is all of the above, managed only to get 12 last Easter at Grade 7, despite getting 17 the following term for Grade 8. The Grade 7 exam mark in no way represented his aural ability.

Having read your posts, I did take the comments with a small piece of salt, but you'd be amazed how many people do take those kind of rumours seriously.



This does sort of prove my point. 12 is a pass and indicates they got at least half of the answers correct. There is so much more to remember, there will therefore be more that can't be recalled. Its no different to any exam when you can get the questions you want, or the ones you were dreading.

One of the points I struggle to persuade my pupils with is the style/period question for grade 8, where often pupils pick the period and then list the features they've learnt for that period, rather than listing the features first in the exam, and then picking a period. Yes, that does mean that sometimes they are going to be spot on, and other times, probably quite a bit off.

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One of the points I struggle to persuade my pupils with is the style/period question for grade 8, where often pupils pick the period and then list the features they've learnt for that period, rather than listing the features first in the exam, and then picking a period. Yes, that does mean that sometimes they are going to be spot on, and other times, probably quite a bit off.
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I'm convinced this is what happened to my daughter at easter when she got 10 for the Grade 5 aural. Watching her try to talk is actually very uncomfortable, she doesn't stutter but imagine someone with a bad stutter trying to speak. She started by picking the period, I'm sure she got it wrong, and then started to discuss the features. The examiner stopped her and moved on even though my daughter gets extra time to answer questions and the opportunity to ask for a question to be repeated. I'm guessing the examiner thought she wasn't going to earn any more marks and as a kindness decided not to put her through any more discussion.
Fortunately Beth is smart enough to understand this point well so I'm optimistic that she will start with the features next time. If she doesn't she doesn't.
Interestingly she wrote down some points and was then much more able to speak about them. I'm going to test out of this is always the case and then see if the board would agree to her taking in blank paper and pencil. Either way her aural is improving which is the vital thing.
Dora

Hi notmusimum - sorry to hear that Em's result wasn't what you expected. But since, as you say, she has done other Grade 7 exams and scored much more highly in aural, then this is to be looked on as a blip. Glad to hear that she is more bemused than upset.

Thanks!

It was still an exam we paid for and the "problem" section is an area where there is ulikely to be alot of feedback on the comment sheet.

It's not so much the mark. There is no point in being upset over it as there's nothing we can do to change it. I dare say there will justification on the comment sheet for the marks in other areas which were lower than normal too.

I don't want another blip at grade 8

Try not to worry too much. To do well in grade 8 aural your daughter needs to be confident of her ability, so it's best to gloss over this one poor result and encourage her to start work on the more difficult grade 8 aural while she has teachers to help.

Emsoboe is doing so well so young that I don't think you need worry too much about grade 8. By the time she comes to audition for uni or conservatoire (if that's what she decides to do) she will be well past grade 8 standard, and everyone knows that music departments don't pay overmuch heed to grade results.

If she really needs grade 8 distinction, wait until she's at first diploma level before she takes grade 8; then her pieces will be so good that aural will be much less important. My son managed to get grade 8 distinction on clarinet that way despite a mark of 10 in the aural!

We now have Beth's aural marks. 18 for the Grade 2 and 17 for the Grade 4.
Very happy with those.
Dora

I've got to the point where I wonder if this would work. I know it's the right approach. Believe me we did everything we could to ensure she was playing as well as possible this time round. The overall mark might be more of a shock but for the aural being so low.



Excellent! It's good to know that all the hard work has been rewarded.

Well done!

LOL. Don't you believe it.
I think that her last Grade 4 marks, nearly 2 years ago was good too, but not that good of course. I'm going to check it out this morning. For us Grade 5 has proved to be a huge stumbling block.
You have no idea how tempted I have been to book a session with you. It is only the distance that is stopping me.
I am glad we've tackled this though because I don't want Beth to feel that she can't do aural and it is certainly not true.
The examiner wrote on her Piano sheet, she did Piano first, that she had a lovely voice. That was really nice. We'll get there.
Dora