Hi

When you play spiccato should you play this with the bow wood slightly tilted away from you or the hairs flat. My book say's with the hairs flat --- but i don't know if this is actually correct?????? (this is not what i am tought).

Also what is "springing stroke" (Coup d'archet sautille) is this spiccato or somethink else??? AS far as i know, sautille is the fast spiccato --- is this correct?????

thanks.

I have been taught to have a flat bow stroke when doing spicatto and not to do the spiccatto too close to the frog of the bow to get the best sound quality.

perhaps there are two schools of thought on this??????????

Possibly. My teacher has flat bow when doing spicatto and it sounds excellent I trust everything he teaches to me.

There of course can be more than one way to do the same type of bowing.

I always keep getting confused with all these bowings, what is 'staccato' then (like what Heifetz plays in Hora Staccato see youtube anyone who's interested, lovely video!)
and is the spiccato Violin Hero is talking about the short 'bouncing' bows, ie your bow does like a half moon type of travel and hits the string in the middle of the half moon journey? (if you understand what I mean? )ie start off string, hit string and bounce off it? as that one I do with the hair flat like you Violin Hero (well usually anyway, something different might happen if I am not paying attention and playing a mixture of slurred and spiccato quickly)

in the staccato I am learning (Kreutzer n.4) I have to keep the bow on the string all the time, no bouncing, wood of bow towards fingerboard in upbows, wood of bow towards ME in downbows.

Staccatto is playing the note detached but still on the string while spiccatto is a short off the string note.

Thanks Violin Hero, what I was thinking of was 'right' then

There is also the possibility of playing a short note off the string where the bow angle remains constant and the hand and arm control the (roughly) semi-circular arc, whereas in spiccato the bow is rotating about the hand and the time between notes is strongly influenced by the position of the contact point on the bow and on the string. Off-the-string staccato gives a short ring after the note, which is suppressed if the bow remains on the string. Also, you can use this movement at the heel (e.g. for a loud, short final chord).

Hi Kenm, I have always been taught to listen for the "ring" with spiccato, which is off string, hence the name spiccato. It's just i have been taught that this should be done with bow wood tilted away from you, but i do read in a book that it should be played with hair flat. I have never been taught or read about spiccato beibg done by rotating bow in hand,-------i'm not saying this is wrong ---- just not read or heard about it.

Staccato is on the string --- as far as i know and have been taught. Also different types of staccato.

jojo, the one where you don't take bow off string - do you mean sautille (fast spiccato)? If so my book also say's this should also be done with bow hair flat.

all very confusing!!!!!

Tilting away is upper string only; 'cellists and bass players tilt towards, thus making the same sort of angle with the instrument. When I learnt spiccato (on bass) from Christopher Bunting, he said nothing about tilting. I think I flatten a bit when I do it, to give greater freedom to hand and wrist, not because I think it affects the sound in itself.

In spiccato, the point moves more than the heel, so there is an element of rotation.

Staccato just means shortening the note and is not specific to strings. I don't think I'm the only person who can do it either on or off the string.

yes it can be confusing (well it is to me! )
for staccato I mean the staccato Heifetz plays HERE
sorry to mention Heifetz and nothing else but I am learning staccato after this example, I have not read about it in books.
IN this he plays with stick tilted towards scroll in upbows and towards bridge in downbows, not coming off string and that's the way I have been asked to learn it boy it's hard to do properly!!! (like everything else )

Hi jojo, i can well recommend reading about the different bowings, as you will see why i am a "tad" confused. There are so many!!!

I have a couple of books on right arm/bowings ------perhaps not a good idea after all????????????????????


I have got the very basics sorted out (or so i think), but then gets loads worse.
My guess is --i'm probably worrying too much about it, at too earlier level, perhaps.

I hope learning the piano is not quite so bad ----i'm hope

Hi Debra, just out of interest, what are the books you refer to?
Are you starting piano too? From scratch or as a re-starter?

I'm not so sure, what are you supposed to do with the bow when playing piano!?

well, it could be useful to the teacher, to 'poke you' with it every time you make a mistake



thanks Debra, I am not a very keen reader and will avoid reading if I can at all, besides, it doesn't seem to help that much as you are still confused about it
jokes apart,
I really do not like reading much at all so I will stick with reading the posts here (that's how much reading I can bear) and asking questions around whenever the occasion arises
you are right, there is so much to read out there on most things and definitely loads on violin technique, I don't have that time to spare (yet), maybe when I retire from my full time job? (although that will be another 25 years?)


Kenm I just wanted to say:
your posts always bring lots of interesting/useful information, I have to admit sometimes a little technical for my still 'young brain' (musically and as a violin/double bass player not as in age ) but nevertheless I always like reading your posts, thank you

I find your posts are always interesting



This site looks relevant--plus there are videos to show you/let you listen

thanks Jacobi,
I remember looking at this site a LONG time ago (ie 2 to 3 years ago), thanks for 'bringing it back' to my attention!
the first bowing it talks about, the 'detache'' it gives the Kreutzer n.2 to practice it. This is what my teacher gave me to practice, I have to practice it dividing the bow in 3 parts (in this site it suggest two part, tip to middle and frog to middle), so my teacher wants me to practice it from tip of bow to 1/3 or the bow, then in the middle 3rd of the bow then from frog to 1/3 (if it makes sense). He also wants me to practice it first all notes a different bow (so detached:up bow then down the up etc etc) then to do 'bowing variations' so for every group of 4 semiquavers: first 2 notes slurred 2nd 2 notes detached, then 1st note detached, middle 2 slurred and last note detached then finally first 2 notes detached and last 2 notes slurred.
then to finish off he wants me to practice it with the bowing in the 'opposite direction' so if the first bar normally starts with a down bow, he wants me to start with an up bow !

I have been doing this Kreutzer for 6 months now, I have grown quite 'attached to it'

That's a funny coincidence - I've spent most of the day playing Kreutzer 2!!
Did my scales & acrobatics but then didn't have any heart for my pieces today with my little furry boy gone, so I ended up doing this study and it's variations for the first time in about 20 years.
Very levelling.

Hi miffy,


I,m just starting playing the piano, maybe thinking of doing the exams, but i.m not sure yet!! Have not got a teacher yet either!!!

Violin books you where asking about are:
1. Practicing the violin mentally and physically (L. Kievman) --- this is actually left hand ang right arm.
2. Bogentechnik ( casorti) - all about the bow really.

But, i would not buy them till you have a look at them first (incase you don't like them!!!!).

I'm sure there are others as well.

Sorry, ----but i don't really know what grade you are on, so you maywell know this already!!!

Typed yp a long reply then everything got stuck and I lost it!!

Anyway - no, I haven't heard of either of those books. I like to read different takes on the same theme - keeps your mind open!

The two books I love are -

Carl Flesch - The Art of violin Playing books 1&2 (and there's his Scale System for actually playing)

Ivan Galamian - Principles of Violin Playing and Teaching

Hope your piano goes well!

Yes, thats exactly it! ---- i also like reading different takes on stuff! You have hit the nail on the head----or there abouts. I like this flexible approach.

Mind you i'm not sure yet, how i will incorporate the bow into my piano playing!
I'l have a think and see what i can come up with. You never know i may be famous one day...........