Anyone out there who's familiar with Japanese flutes?? ....other than Yamaha
What is it about the design of Japanese flutes that make them so bland in their tone. They seem to lack tonal colour and the capacity for the player to change the tonal colour.
I know that this can be one downfall of Yamaha flutes (although I am sure there will be people who disagree), but having heard a Miyazawa they also seem very similar, even instruments with a solid silver head.
Full Version: A Question About Japanese Flutes
isnt pearl a japanese company
well maybe i was just wonderin'
Lucy xxx
well maybe i was just wonderin'
Lucy xxx
I'd like to be able to respond, but the truth is that I haven't had as much chance to play good level Japanese flutes as I would like...Viohazard and his brother don't let me get near the woodwind shops on the rare occasions when I'm near the districts where the music shops cluster!!!
I'd be interested to hear which models/what sort of price levels you are thinking of in your comments though, as "bland" makes me think "workmanlike but boring - student or upgrade level flute"...and the strong Japanese yen means that what is a first flute in Japan could be an upgrade model in other countries. By "strong yen" I mean that the current exchange rate is something like 1/4 of what it was when I first started studying Japanese!!!
I'll check out details later, but companies like Yamaha pioneered the automation of certain types of pitch and tone testing. That could very well lead to a preference for simple rather than complex tonality.
I've hardly played any Miyazawa flutes. I know that I did get as far as thinking that if I had the money, on my modest budget I would probably pick a Sankyo. (I am not at all thinking of the higher level models though, just mid to lower-middle levels, sadly!).
I did play a very wonderful wooden barrel/silver-keyed Japanese Boehm-system flute a couple of years back. Cost a mint!
Mateki has a special reputation here, but one thing that I wonder about is that the generation of postwar flute makers who really drove Japanese flutes on to the next level, have almost all died over the past decade or so. I keep thinking that I must find out what the story is now, whether the next generation have all splintered off into handcraft flute-making, or whether "the mantle" has been passed on to visionary craftsman within each company.
I'd be interested to hear which models/what sort of price levels you are thinking of in your comments though, as "bland" makes me think "workmanlike but boring - student or upgrade level flute"...and the strong Japanese yen means that what is a first flute in Japan could be an upgrade model in other countries. By "strong yen" I mean that the current exchange rate is something like 1/4 of what it was when I first started studying Japanese!!!
I'll check out details later, but companies like Yamaha pioneered the automation of certain types of pitch and tone testing. That could very well lead to a preference for simple rather than complex tonality.
I've hardly played any Miyazawa flutes. I know that I did get as far as thinking that if I had the money, on my modest budget I would probably pick a Sankyo. (I am not at all thinking of the higher level models though, just mid to lower-middle levels, sadly!).
I did play a very wonderful wooden barrel/silver-keyed Japanese Boehm-system flute a couple of years back. Cost a mint!
Mateki has a special reputation here, but one thing that I wonder about is that the generation of postwar flute makers who really drove Japanese flutes on to the next level, have almost all died over the past decade or so. I keep thinking that I must find out what the story is now, whether the next generation have all splintered off into handcraft flute-making, or whether "the mantle" has been passed on to visionary craftsman within each company.
Pearls are made in Taiwan, the student models are anyway.
I wonder if it's just a matter of cultural preference? I know with violins, for example, that the Chinese like their instruments much brighter and shriller than we do in Europe, that really is how they like them. I have also a very strong suspicion, based on many interactions, that Americans like their violins brighter than we do (though not as bright as the Chinese). Why shouldn't woodwind be affected in the same way?
But then of course there is another answer and that is that ultimately it comes down to what sells. Yamaha are in the rather fortunate position of being able to convince so many teachers that their flutes are the only ones worth having, that they can put them out at £100 more than the next most expensive rival and STILL have them outselling all the other brands put together (probably: I don't know the actual figures but certainly that is the impression I get from within the trade). That's why you get people fighting over used, unguaranteed ones, on ebay, to the extent that they will pay more for those than they will for a new and guaranteed flute of another reputable brand. I guess it's a triumph of marketing. Why should Yamaha change a winning formula? At the end of the day, teachers, if you don't like it, tell your students to buy something else!
As for Miyazawa, i suspect the same thing applies though on a smaller scale.
Liz
I wonder if it's just a matter of cultural preference? I know with violins, for example, that the Chinese like their instruments much brighter and shriller than we do in Europe, that really is how they like them. I have also a very strong suspicion, based on many interactions, that Americans like their violins brighter than we do (though not as bright as the Chinese). Why shouldn't woodwind be affected in the same way?
But then of course there is another answer and that is that ultimately it comes down to what sells. Yamaha are in the rather fortunate position of being able to convince so many teachers that their flutes are the only ones worth having, that they can put them out at £100 more than the next most expensive rival and STILL have them outselling all the other brands put together (probably: I don't know the actual figures but certainly that is the impression I get from within the trade). That's why you get people fighting over used, unguaranteed ones, on ebay, to the extent that they will pay more for those than they will for a new and guaranteed flute of another reputable brand. I guess it's a triumph of marketing. Why should Yamaha change a winning formula? At the end of the day, teachers, if you don't like it, tell your students to buy something else!
As for Miyazawa, i suspect the same thing applies though on a smaller scale.
Liz
| QUOTE (elidatrading @ Dec 12 2004, 12:36 AM) |
| Pearls are made in Taiwan, the student models are anyway. |
i was just wonderin'
n i didnt kno the answer
I bought myself an ALTUS 907 about 4 years ago and I love playing ( it is Japanese isn't it?!?).
I went down to Topwind and tries lots of flutes but this was my favourite in this price range (RRP £1770).
I did try flutes going up to about £2300 - but kept coming back to this model. BTW I didn't like any of the Yamahas in this price range at all ( - in fact I don't have any Yamaha flutes at all, although the student models are very good.)
I went down to Topwind and tries lots of flutes but this was my favourite in this price range (RRP £1770).
I did try flutes going up to about £2300 - but kept coming back to this model. BTW I didn't like any of the Yamahas in this price range at all ( - in fact I don't have any Yamaha flutes at all, although the student models are very good.)
This is all very interesting, so please keep throwing thoughts at this.
I know that the US prefer their clarinets to sound brighter than we do in the UK, but the tone of their flutes is the opposite. A dark, warm timbre that lends itself to more tonal flexibility and emotional capacity than the brighter sounding Japanese models.
At the end of the day each of us have our own preferences, but cultural trends seem to play a big part in the manufacturing as well.
I could not find fault with the Miyazawa PA-202 for its build quality - it was a truly refined instrument - but the sound just didn't do anything for me.
I know that the US prefer their clarinets to sound brighter than we do in the UK, but the tone of their flutes is the opposite. A dark, warm timbre that lends itself to more tonal flexibility and emotional capacity than the brighter sounding Japanese models.
At the end of the day each of us have our own preferences, but cultural trends seem to play a big part in the manufacturing as well.
I could not find fault with the Miyazawa PA-202 for its build quality - it was a truly refined instrument - but the sound just didn't do anything for me.
Hmmm...I went chasing through the Japanese flute sites and chat boards and discovered...
...that a lot of chat board archives have been sealed, probably in reaction to recent crimes...
However, as well as a couple of sites from people with a professional interest in teaching or manufacturing, I did find a board with kids of 12-15 talking about upgrade flutes. Muramatsu remains the standard choice for advancing players. That will take a while to change here, as teachers regard it as the safe choice...doesn't require a lot of skill from the player, reliable intonation, sturdy, and a sound that is neither piercingly bright nor muddy. A few had Altus instruments that they liked.
Please note that these comments are ***private opinions***. I've tried to reproduce them responsibly...but don't take them as gospel.
Altus is regarded as the up-and-coming, especially in midrange instruments, regarded as well-made, with good embouchure/lip-plate etc., with a Muramatsu heritage in sound, but a big interest in innovation.
One owner of a fairly large amateur site mentioned that recent Muramatsu models were going after a bigger sound. He wasn't sure whether he liked the old sound better, or just needed time to adjust his concept of Muramatsu flutes.
Sankyo and Miyazawa are regarded as the brightest sounding Japanese flutes (I'm disregarding brands not readily available outside Japan here), with Sankyo having the edge in quality of manufacturing.
A couple of people interested in high-end handmade flutes mulled the differences between Japanese and Western flutes, and pointed out that Japanese flute manufacturers, at least initially, went for free-blowing flutes with reliable pitch up and down the scale without major embouchure adjustments (i.e. flutes that would perform well for less skilled players) and sturdy mechanism. They also plumped firmly for the French sound, with thin-walled flutes and a clear, bright sound emphasizing the upper registers. I guess it's significant that the British flute tradition might just be the farthest possible distance AWAY from the French sound! The feeling is that you might squeeze that extra something out of an expensive Powell or Brannen, if you have the necessary skill, and if you are willing to work with your flute every minute of your playing (as you should, of course, but...), but that a step-up player is probably better served by a Japanese flute. (Of course, that's also because a mid-range Japanese flute is cheaper in Japan than a mid-range American flute -- I don't know how prices compare in the UK!).
As for the influence of traditional Japanese transverse flutes, yes, they emphasize the upper registers, and I don't recall many melodies that don't use overblowing. The "otherworldly" sound of the flute is not the dreamy angelic tone of French music, but in drama, the undiluted and inhuman passions of wronged and vengeful spirits, or in folk music, wild and ecstatic improvisations that cut loose from the drum rhythms - flute = INTENSE!!!
...that a lot of chat board archives have been sealed, probably in reaction to recent crimes...
However, as well as a couple of sites from people with a professional interest in teaching or manufacturing, I did find a board with kids of 12-15 talking about upgrade flutes. Muramatsu remains the standard choice for advancing players. That will take a while to change here, as teachers regard it as the safe choice...doesn't require a lot of skill from the player, reliable intonation, sturdy, and a sound that is neither piercingly bright nor muddy. A few had Altus instruments that they liked.
Please note that these comments are ***private opinions***. I've tried to reproduce them responsibly...but don't take them as gospel.
Altus is regarded as the up-and-coming, especially in midrange instruments, regarded as well-made, with good embouchure/lip-plate etc., with a Muramatsu heritage in sound, but a big interest in innovation.
One owner of a fairly large amateur site mentioned that recent Muramatsu models were going after a bigger sound. He wasn't sure whether he liked the old sound better, or just needed time to adjust his concept of Muramatsu flutes.
Sankyo and Miyazawa are regarded as the brightest sounding Japanese flutes (I'm disregarding brands not readily available outside Japan here), with Sankyo having the edge in quality of manufacturing.
A couple of people interested in high-end handmade flutes mulled the differences between Japanese and Western flutes, and pointed out that Japanese flute manufacturers, at least initially, went for free-blowing flutes with reliable pitch up and down the scale without major embouchure adjustments (i.e. flutes that would perform well for less skilled players) and sturdy mechanism. They also plumped firmly for the French sound, with thin-walled flutes and a clear, bright sound emphasizing the upper registers. I guess it's significant that the British flute tradition might just be the farthest possible distance AWAY from the French sound! The feeling is that you might squeeze that extra something out of an expensive Powell or Brannen, if you have the necessary skill, and if you are willing to work with your flute every minute of your playing (as you should, of course, but...), but that a step-up player is probably better served by a Japanese flute. (Of course, that's also because a mid-range Japanese flute is cheaper in Japan than a mid-range American flute -- I don't know how prices compare in the UK!).
As for the influence of traditional Japanese transverse flutes, yes, they emphasize the upper registers, and I don't recall many melodies that don't use overblowing. The "otherworldly" sound of the flute is not the dreamy angelic tone of French music, but in drama, the undiluted and inhuman passions of wronged and vengeful spirits, or in folk music, wild and ecstatic improvisations that cut loose from the drum rhythms - flute = INTENSE!!!
One of the biggest differences between flutes is in the cut of the hole. The American headjoints (eg Powell) are more square; some Japanese flutes, the Altus in particular,have a more elliptical cut which gives a more French sound, similar to old Louis Lots.
The elliptical cut is more challenging to play for a lot of people, but perhaps has more potential in the end. Several of my students have upgraded to a mid-range flute recently, where the choice is usually between the Miyazawa 101 and the Altus 807. Only one so far has chosen the Altus.
Incidentally, I disagree about Japanese flutes being brighter than American ones. When I was flute testing, I liked both the Powell 2100 and the Murumatsu GX. The Powell had the bright sound; the Murumatsu was definitely a much darker beast. However, we're using words here, and this difference may just be down to our own interpretation of 'bright' and 'dark'.
The elliptical cut is more challenging to play for a lot of people, but perhaps has more potential in the end. Several of my students have upgraded to a mid-range flute recently, where the choice is usually between the Miyazawa 101 and the Altus 807. Only one so far has chosen the Altus.
Incidentally, I disagree about Japanese flutes being brighter than American ones. When I was flute testing, I liked both the Powell 2100 and the Murumatsu GX. The Powell had the bright sound; the Murumatsu was definitely a much darker beast. However, we're using words here, and this difference may just be down to our own interpretation of 'bright' and 'dark'.
Yeah, Muramatsu is not a bright sound...
About shape of mouthhole cut, I feel I can't comment...I have the dreaded teardrop embouchure, and how!
About shape of mouthhole cut, I feel I can't comment...I have the dreaded teardrop embouchure, and how!
Whats a tear drop enbrouchure? And why is it 'dreaded'? 
Maybe I'm using the wrong word for it...I have cupid bow shaped lips, so the middle of my upper lip has a droop or teardrop (OK, bulge...) to it, which makes it hard to get a really focussed airstream. Some people get around it by moving their embouchure slightly off centre. I suspect most people with this mouth shape have plain ole fat lips as well as a teardrop, and we should probably sell our flutes and take up the ocarina...
...especially when I remember my flute teacher in high school lecturing me on the utter impossibility of my ever being a first class flautist with fat lips and crooked teeth. As if my mouth shape were the only obstacle in my path to stardom
! His lecture did make me decide not to ask my parents to upgrade my beginner flute though
...especially when I remember my flute teacher in high school lecturing me on the utter impossibility of my ever being a first class flautist with fat lips and crooked teeth. As if my mouth shape were the only obstacle in my path to stardom
! His lecture did make me decide not to ask my parents to upgrade my beginner flute though
| QUOTE (all ears @ Dec 13 2004, 11:54 AM) |
| ...especially when I remember my flute teacher in high school lecturing me on the utter impossibility of my ever being a first class flautist with fat lips and crooked teeth. As if my mouth shape were the only obstacle in my path to stardom |
That would have probably put me off for life! 
It did! 
...but fat lips are no obstacle to playing the didgeridoo!
...but fat lips are no obstacle to playing the didgeridoo!
Someone descibed to me a couple of years ago a book that had photographs of different embouchures and I keep trying to get hold of it. However bookshops / online suppliers seem to have no record of it. If anyone has details of this "Embouchure book" I would be grateful to receive the details.
The flute ,in particular, can require a completely different shaped embochure depending on the person's lips.
Thanks to anyone who can enlighten me!!
Janet
The flute ,in particular, can require a completely different shaped embochure depending on the person's lips.
Thanks to anyone who can enlighten me!!
Janet
Thanks very much for that link. That is undoubtedly the book I have been looking for - having a title should help my search. As it is out of print I wonder if anyone has a copy they no longer require?? Otherwise I shall have to ask around and start looking in 2nd hand book shops.
Thanks again
Thanks again
| QUOTE (JRBailey @ Dec 12 2004, 11:19 AM) |
| ( - in fact I don't have any Yamaha flutes at all, although the student models are very good.) |
I had a yamaha as my first "proper" flute (in fact, so was my very first flute!) and they are very reliable and IMO quite easy to get a fairly good tone from, but when it came to my last upgrade (probably my last ever new flute! sob! lol just as well I love it) I went for a Pearl because the sound seemed warmer and deeper, and there just seemed to be more I could do with it than the Yamaha, which seemed quite one-dimensional by comparison. Though flutes are such a personal thing... what suits one person won't always suit another.
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