Totally agree - especially about the "most important thing I've come to term's with". I remember talking to you at the first forum event I went to about this frustration. I recently posted on another thread that I no longer struggle with learning music - not because it got easier, but because I decided to make a conscious effort not to give myself a hard time about it.

I have finished my solo piano arrangement of Ravel's Daphnis et Chlo? 2nd suite. However, due to DipABRSM practise, I can't learn to actually play the thing yet (can only play it as well as transcribing it required). This is going to be a pain- can see dip practise getting distracted >.<

There are different difficulties in all of my pieces for grade 8 some technical, others musical.

The structure of the Bach is fine, and the voicing is coming. I don't actually stretch the tenths, I float my elbow across and deliberately play the quavers staccato. Contrasting the quavers and semiquavers can break up the relentless movement and sort out the voicing issues.

The Beethoven has to be kept in strict time and yet be very pianistic. Of course being Beethoven there are loads of Sf accents poking through the texture that need to be kept in context and yet have the right weight.

The Debussy has typical three/verses two clashes in it, the harmony is very important and getting a really good pp without the use the una corda pedal and there are some moments that need full weight.

All good fun. I've just got to get it consistentely right now!

Had a good long practice session today. Finally, the last sections of the Forlane from Le Tombeau de Couperin seem to be coming together and it's beginning to sound vaguely musical in places. Another year and it might be ready to perform. Schubert 960 (2nd Movt) is also making slow but positive progress.

Wish i could arrange stuff for piano, it's very difficult to do well. I should know, have enough arrangements in various books, mostly of popular/jazzy stuff, and many of them are not excactly great. Arranging the Ravel must be some task...good luck with it, but i'd focus on the Dip if i were you, and get it out the way first. I am still comitted to my ''Brahms project'' of getting twenty pieces finished this year, from the Op76 and late pieces, they are beginning to take shape...naturally some more quickly than others. Aside from that the Scriabin Poeme Op41 and Impromtu Op 12 which i started ages ago, are about ready now, also the Catoire pieces which i first heard on Marc Andre hamelins CD of this composers music, are well on the way. It ain't easy though...but then, you know what they say. ....phew !

As a change of scene I'm on my first "jazz" pieces - teacher gave me "Downtown Beat" by William Gillock and I liked it so much I started on his "New Orleans Blues" too. Then having been bitten by the jazz bug I got myself a set of Oscar Peterson's jazz exercises and I'm working on the first two. It's a lot of fun!

Just back from music lesson. Teacher wants me to tackle the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata next.

I'm in two minds about it as I don't think I'm ready to do it justice ,and therefore it will require a disproportionate amount of time and effort in relation to the return (progress) I'm likely to get; and on the other hand, I guess its never really to early to make a start on something I do want to be able to play.

I have toyed with it, off and on, for the past year and always ended up putting it to one side, when the progress-to-effort ratio fell below a certain amount; each time I returned to it, I felt I made a significant leap forward and possibly this was down to resting it?

Still undecided

Mole

PianissiMole- I think that advanced repertoire such as the 3rd mvt of Moonlight (actually, any diploma level repertoire) needs tackling before you are ready to do it justice. I think the right way to go about doing justice to any piece of music is to learn it as best you can then put it to one side and come back to it, put it to one side again etc.

Even with concert pianists, what you hear them play in concert or on CD is only the tip of the iceberg because you are only hearing the pieces they themselves are happy with rather than any old thing they can reach the end of for the pleasure of an amateur audience. When I think about this in relation to someone like Leslie Howard whose Liszt recordings almost fill an entire CD storage unit on their own, I feel VERY small.

But back to the point, definitely learn that 3rd movement, then when you have done all you can for the present put it away for a couple of years, play other things and come back to it!

I don't think it's a bad thing to have many goes at it, I've done that for quite a few pieces before, not necessarily all on piano. You might not do it justice right this minute but any effort you put into learning it now will get you closer.

Since you've gone back and forth on the piece several times now and seem to appreciate working on it even if it doesn't get to performance standard quickly, I don't see why this time should be any different. It'll probably be even more rewarding with your teacher's support. I actually had a negative experience with trying to work on this piece before I was ready (though my teacher did assign it), but that was mostly because I was 13 and extremely immature - I was convinced that if I couldn't get it up to 160 working on it was worthless I know better now, and I think you do too

Thanks for the positive comments - all good advice. It's just possible I might manage it this time round, which is a great incentive. Perhaps more importantly in the long term, we will work on building some of the essential tools for playing the piece - especially arpeggio work.

Ravel and Schubert to finish first!
Mole

It is dead simple. Is there something else that you would prefer to learn, and that would contribute to your development?

If so learn that, if not learn the "Moonlight" but keeping in mind (which is true of most things anyway - even very "simple" pieces) that like the rest of us you will not play it really well until you have forgotten and re-learned it twice over.

There's so much I want to learn (and so little time ) but the Moonlight is probably up there in my top ten!

I'm re visiting Debussy's Clair de Lune ( again!!) and am absolutely determined to master the fast runs...this time

I can play it all through now with all notes in place...just need alot of patience and practise I suppose now.

Fast runs? Where?

Well I think they're fast anyway...at the un poco mosso section. Funny coz my teacher from long ago wrote 'faster' at this bit aswell

I suppose I'm struggling playing with accuracy and with more flow/speed.

Any hints Mad Tom...?

Please.... thanks

Make sure that your finger/hand/arm actions are appropriate to the speed it will eventually go (and not to an Adagio)

Do a lot of repetition at a speed that is MUCH slower than you are aiming for, and that you can handle easily (this will also get the Pedalling accurate)

Increase speed g r a d u a l l y , (almost imperceptibly).

Keep the semiquavers light (bring out bass and melody)

Never repeatedly force the speed so that you lose control (but every few days "have a go" at a speed that is faster than comfortable to "get the feel" of it)

After a few weeks of intensive work, put the piece away for six weeks and forget it, then relearn it ...

... then put it away for 3 months, forget it again, and re-learn it again.

Memorize it!!!

Find other exercises and pieces that use similar patterns or develop similar schools (several Czerny etudes fit the bill) and work on those in parallel, and while resting the piece.

Be patient

Be patient

Be patient

Thanks Tom....some great advice!

I have my old 'Czerny exercises' book still so I will have a go at those aswell.

It really is my goal to master this piece as it has a very special place in my heart coz my Gran ( who gave me her piano and was the only one who really understood my passion for wanting to learn the piano) used to always play it. I still have her original copy.

So, thank you...I'm gonna crack it this time!

It depends on just how fast you play this, un poco piu mosso is'nt the same as allegro molto... but it does seem that the majority of pianists who i've heard playing Clair de Lune race off at breakneck speed here. Gordon Fergus Thompson, something of a Debussy specialist, plays it very slowly, in fact the piece clocks in almost two minutes longer than the average time taken. I would say that he goes a bit too slowly, but many go too quickly. I do play this one, all the faster bits memorised, and the fingerings i've chosen would probably be regarded as a bit unconventional and I'd imagine would be frowned on by some... Popular as it is, and as much as i've heard it in recitals(mostly student ones) down the years, generally I have'nt been that impressed with the performances...on one occasion an accomplished pianist(the students teacher) who I'd heard in the past give a good account of a Chopin Ballade and Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody made an absolute hash of it. So my advice would be, memorise the quicker parts, but choose the fingerings for all the piece carefully, write them down, and don't play poco piu mosso at too much of a clip. It takes work and time to get this one sounding as beautiful as it ought to.

I also think most people take it too fast. (I thought Gordon F-T's was OK though) I also don't like stupid amounts of rubato applied to the earlier Debussys, but I think that may be a personal preference rather than a criticism of wrong style.

I like to play this almost as slow as Fergus-Thompson - I think it is just that much more magical and contemplative.

(I also have the slightly macabre thought that if I am ever braindead and on life support, this is what I want them to switch me off to)

Keeping up with Bach's Prelude in C and Beethoven's Fur Elise.

Learning
Schumann's First Lost, which is coming along nicely.
Chopin's Prelude in A, which is coming along slowly.

Einaudi's Le Onde, A bit too adventurous for me at the moment but I love this piece.

The best performance of Clair de lune I have ever come across is Weissenbergs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_BtiHVE7Og

The middle part could be seen as "breakneck" speed, but he plays it so beautifully- he's totally in control of the music, which is something that is lost when most pianists speed things up- even professionals.

Thanks for posting that - I think that's a lovely recording! I do see what you mean about how he's in control of the speed.

I'm learning Kabalevsky's Sonatina in C major. Or trying to.

It's not going well... yesterday evening I had to stop in case I did the piano (or myself) an injury out of sheer frustration. Stupid fingers won't do what they're told - and certainly won't do it fast enough.

Yes it sounds good, though i'm in an internet cafe, and only one speaker in the headphones works. And someone is talking loudly to a neighbouring screen with a ''webcam'', in a language i can't identify, and now he's laughing... evidently it's much more fun to disturb other folk trying to listen to Clair de Lune with dodgy headphones than go outside and make a phone call. Now he's making a hissing noise, now sneezing. I'm off.

Tried an experiment today which I can't repeat too often because it might actually result in physical damage. Tried to play the Debussy Toccata at full speed (about crotchet = 144), to get an idea of the type of movement involved.

It was interesting to find that I actually need a lot more arm strength - finger flexibility alone isn't going to do it for this. The arm movements required are very fast and I realise that my puny arms aren't strong enough to move that fast and stay in control.

Of course I was tensing up everywhere because I didn't have the control, which is why I can't repeat this experiment again for a while- but I now have a better idea of the sort of movement I need to be aiming for in very fast passages.

No idea if this is applicable to anyone else, it's just what seems to work for my physiology.

Chopin Op. 53 Polonaise is coming along. I still can't play any more than 1.5 pages of it, but the consecutive octaves in both hands are progressing. Still can't play it at speed. It'll be a year or more, but I am seeing progress and that is the important thing.

Am slightly obsessed with the C# major Fugue from WTC book 1.

Ooooo....me too, but for the violin. Lovely, isn't it?

My hands are well again.

The two dislocated fingers are 99.9% back to their former condition ... they no longer feel "odd"

Recent bout of Dermatitis (pompholyx) abated. Finally enough of the sore bits have healed to let me play normally.

So it is back to the mainstays of the recital repertoire I am building ... the works of the the composers that I really, really love: Scarlatti, Haydn, Liszt, Brahms, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Martinu, ... ... with odds and ends from a half dozen others (Grieg, Medtner, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Piazzolla, etc. )

I was brought up on Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Debussy [EDIT: and almost forgot ... Chopin] but don't have any burning desire to master very many of their compositions these days.

Yay to health! I've had pompholyx, as has my mum, and it was pretty awful. My mum says that this stuff helps her.

I was also brought up on Bach Mozart and Debussy, and have really got into Bach lately - Mozart somewhat less so. Keep meaning to do more Beethoven and Brahms but other things get in the way, like my job. Boo hiss.

At last the Bach, Beethoven and Debussy are sounding like pieces of music and although not memorised the motor memory is guiding my hands in the right directions.

(Bach Capriccio Partita in c minor, Beethoven Rondo, Sonata no 8 op 13 in c minor (Pathetique), Debussy Valse Romantique)

Not perfect, but definitely in the right direction.

Practising is a bit haywire at the moment; with the LTCL on hold until the winter I'm working on other things. Beethoven Tempest (might also try Les Adieux) because old B usually beats me in the end and I'm determined to wallop one of the sonatas into submission one day.
The Skriabin etude is a good one for octave stretches and am currently having a ball with the Primo part of Schubert Fantasia in Fmin. Fortunately my duet friend also seems to like it; I might have had to put out a general alert on here for someone to play it with me otherwise.

Brahms horn trio, yay!!

Crashed my way through Chopin Op. 53. That piece always makes me happy even if I can barely play it.

Where are you mel as the secondo part is fab and as a soprano I much prefer playing secondo to primo as I'm not playing the tune. (I learnt it years ago and will almost certainly play it much better now than I did then!)

East Yorks.

Never mind - will have to bear it in mind if there is a midlands forum event sometime - never been to one yet!

Noted

I'll get to work on the horn part!

Are the three of you planning to play this anywhere for other Forumites to enjoy?

I only counted two... don't know who the violinist is though I think Benjy mentioned he could call in a favour? I would be up for playing it but it is going to take a LONG TIME for me to get the piano part under my fingers at the current rate of progress. Looking forward to the process though!

(I've actually performed it before but I was a horn player then, I do not think I will be learning to play the violin just so I can say I've performed it on all three instruments)

Yes we do need a violinist, and if we do pluck up the courage to play it at a forum event some time in the future (2012?) it would be good to have a forum violinist to join us Volunteers? I may gatecrash the Viva Strings forum to see if anyone is up for the challenge.

2012 at the earliest!!!

I've just looked through the piano part - it is rather a monster, so no hurry! You will probably need to maintain the "small hands" thread for continued support I might learn it concurrently to share the pain

The horn part seems more of a stamina test than anything technically too challenging. I am planning to have plenty of endurance-building practice time available later this year.

Can now play my Bach/Beethoven and Debussy with much more reliabilty and the tempo for the Bach is getting towards exciting without fall-offs

Much happier bunny now piano-wise will up time on Schubert Gb impromtu to keep G8 pieces fresh and keep plugging at the scales/arpeggios and supporting tests. Might start on Albeniz as I like that and start looking at some more Bach

You only need one hand to play the horn, right? If we seat you in the right place you can use the other hand to help in the stretchy bits.

As a fellow member of the small handed pianist fraternity why do we put ourselves through this and insist we play big stuff save that it is gorgeous and we have to do it!

Interesting how we learn things... when I started the Bach Capriccio it took me about 2 weeks to learn and memorize the second half. I then decided not to practice it for several weeks because I didn't feel like it, but guilt set in a couple of days ago and I learned the first half - now somehow it's memorized and I can get through it in one piece at moderate tempo! Have decided to give it a rest for a bit and moved on the the Sinfonia, which is MUCH easier and more fun than I thought it would be

Yet another unorthodox way of practicing but it seems to have worked..

I am still trying to learn the C# major fugue from WTC Book 1. Just reading the double sharps gave me a headache at first, and then getting the fingering right was another mental workout.

Of course continuity has been a huge problem and there are certain break points at which it always collapses. I had tried the old trick of playing a few bars before and after, but when I tried to put it all together, no joy. So a few weeks ago I started breaking something that had been drummed into me for years - never break the rhythm, never stop, always keep tempo steady - I started playing it from the beginning and when I got to the point where I just could not continue any more, stop on whatever note it was and allow my mind to catch up.

It's paid off. I can now play through quite a few of those break points at higher speed than I was able to do so before. Of course it sounds awful when I practice this way, but I'm trying to be more mindful of what I'm trying to achieve in a particular session instead of only going by "how it sounds".

Now that I'm just applying polish to my G8 pieces and trying get some stamina practising done. I'm adding the g minor P+F from WTC book 1 (Bach) and Schubert's Impromtu no3 in Gb

This is my first attempt at 4 part fugal playing and the Capriccio has done me some good as all that voice balancing is helping sort out the entries.

The prelude is probably my favourite from the 48. Very understated with intricate underlay and requiring finesse. The fugue needs to bolder and, provided that the quavers remain reasonably slow builds to the most amazing climax.

The Schubert demonstrates how stillness with middle part figuration a melody in the Bass can be used to full effect. I absolutely love it .

What with the stuff I have learnt for my G8, I am becoming very content at the piano.

I decided I needed to 'pull my socks up' after agreeing to support an education appeal on behalf of a rather talented pupil, and then reading what he'd written about me. It was rather touching, now I'm benefitting too.

learning faure nocturne no6 its starting to come together need to sort out the finer points now the notes are in place. been on with this for 6 months! (I am very patient!) Revising Ravel sonatine and brahms intermezzo op118 no2. Got huge list of much music to learn and need to live until i'm at least 200 if not longer.

Last year at this time I was a one-trick pony obsessed with one piece and spending hours on nothing else. This year I've gone the other way completely and am now working on seven things at once. I overdid it a bit today and it is getting a bit close to bad ache (as opposed to good ache which is just a tired feeling). The last time I overdid it I had to take two weeks off.

Well it looks like I'm going to be learning these things for a while longer especially the Grade 8 pieces. Actually if I keep all 5 going and the scales they'll all benefit from one another. I'll also add rest of Pathetique Sonata to keep interest level up and focussed.

Need to to a huge Self-esteem boost at Piano now.

Chopin op. 40 no.2 polonaise in c minor. Not gonna lie, it's going to take a portion... No all of my cunning to bring out all the colour, cantabile voices etc

Rethinking my approach to Beethoven op.90 after youtubing some Barenboim masterclasses. He is an extraordinarily intellegent musician.