For anyone who didn't know, I've recently returned to piano lessons after about 20+ years. As one of my first pieces, my teacher has given me the 2nd movement of Beethoven's Pathetique. Apart from just having some difficulties with the piece (which is a different story ), I'm finding that I'm getting quite a lot of wrist and forearm discomfort / pain, especially in my right wrist, when practising the piece.

I mentioned this to my teacher last lesson (about a week ago) and he was suitably concerned, but after watching me play could only suggest that I was maybe too tense about the whole piece. Which I was, since I was trying to get it all perfect from the word go . However, after being given "permission" to just concentrate on getting the notes securely known (ie ditching dynamics, balance etc for the time being), which did feel as if it relaxed me, I'm still getting the wrist pain.

From looking at my hands when playing, I think the problem may be that I'm struggling with the stretches involved between 1-2 and 1-3 in particular, and that in order to get my thumb securely on to the black keys (the piece being in 4 flats), I'm tending to flex my wrist laterally and also stretching my fingers quite flat, which produces the pain down the outside of the wrist and forearm. I've tried keeping my hands reasonably square to the keys (and curving the longer fingers), but then I can't make the stretches.

Any ideas at all about (a) whether the 'diagnosis' above sounds plausible, and (b) if so, what I can do about it?? I don't have another lesson for at least a week, and I don't want to have to give up practising until then. I had a look through the Hanon and have tried some of the exercises which suggest that they deal with 1-2 and 1-2-3 extensions, but they don't seem to involve anything like the kind of stretches which the piece itself requires.

I'm not old enough for it to be incipient arthritis (I hope) and I don't have tiny hands; I also didn't think I had particularly inflexible hands, but maybe they're stiffer than I realise?

I find that with stretchy pieces like that little and often is the way to go.
I only do short sessions and stop as soon as it gets uncomfortable and over a week or so it improves.
You may need to rethink the hand position, I wouldn't try to keep your wrist straight as you do need some degree of lateral flexibility. There may be times when you don't need to hang on to the stretchy notes but can let the pedal do the work?

scales in octaves before practicing the piece always seems to help a bit to get those awkward stretches too

I have repetitive strain injury of my right wrist which flares up when typing, so am always cautious when playing and try not to overdo it. With the left hand I get pain in the fleshy bit between thumb and forefinger if I overstretch, so again try to be mindful of it. Have found it better to play for short periods only then rest. But it really is a horrible nuisance when you're longing to just get in there and play.

Hard to say without seeing you play but in general IF you are holding your hands at an odd angle to your forearms it does cause strain. Firstly, do your hands need to be in that position or is there a relaxed, natural solution by simply changing your hand position? If you need your hands in that position it may be that your forearms are in the wrong place: Are your elbows clamped to your sides or stuck out like the handles on teapots? Either way will put your elbows and therefore forearms in the wrong place. Good luck with this one.

A common mistake people make with this sort of piece is to use too much effort holding down melody notes. This tenses the muscles and leads to tiredness and pain.

Think about the sustaining pedal and you will realise that it frees you from the need to physically sustain melody notes at the top of your hand. Let go of them as soon as the pedal has taken effect; physically holding them is superfluous effort. As soon as you have let go, make a conscious effort to take the weight away from your wrist by taking it with your upper arm.

This is a bit of a faff at first but becomes second nature quite quickly. The rewards of being able to do so are huge. Aim for a 'floaty' feel in your arms as you play, with a nice loose and flexible wrist.

You can get the feeling easily from a resting position:

1. Rest your hand on your knee to get a good finger shape.
2. Place your hand on the keyboard. Use only enough energy to stop your hand falling off the keys, then examine your sensations:
   • your upper arm will be taking all the weight
   • your wrists will be doing only enough work to stop your hand falling off the piano. It should be loose and flexible.
   • your fingers will be completely limp and resting on the keyboard

If the pain does not disappear after learning to play like this, the you need medical help.

Don't worry. ... just don't do anything that will aggrivate it over the next couple of weeks - give it a bit of a break.

Thanks for the various suggestions. I will give these a go and see how I get on. It's very frustrating, though! Fortunately I have another piece to practise which doesn't give me any problems of this nature, so at least I don't have to stop playing altogether.

Not it is not 'perfectly normal'. Just because you make the same sort of physical mistakes saxophile makes does not make them 'normal'.

If playing the piano hurts, you are doing something wrong. If you are doing something wrong, then you need to change what you are doing, not simply regard it as 'normal'.

This is doubly true when applied to technically, relatively simple pieces like the one saxophile is playing and Maple Leaf Rag. Yes, they both have their moments but they should not cause pain to play.

I wouldn't really call Maple Leaf Rag simple... Yes, a lot simpler than the likes of Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies or Chopin's Etudes, but still - it shouldn't be branded 'simple', correct me if I'm wrong, but Maple Leaf Rag has been on a Grade 8 syllabus for another music school (Not ABRSM), so as far as 'simple' goes - not really. And yes, I spoke to my teacher about the pain and it was because I had too much tension in my left arm, which I have solved now due to practise.

That depends on your definition of 'simple'; it fits mine, for sure. I suppose it depends on how advanced your repertoire is.

Excellent that you sorted out your pain problems. They would not have arisen in the first place had you been using appropriate technique, is the point I was making.

Much more strongly, I was making the point that describing this pain as 'perfectly normal' is harmful and counter-productive. Frankly, it was an idiotic thing to say. Worse, given that some people would take notice of it because it 'allows' them to carry on in the same old way without thinking about the solution to the problem, it is a dangerous thing to say.

I hope nobody reading these posts took any notice of Sam-ChopinFan's statement. I am just trying to make sure none of you have.

Yes, now reading it I realise it was a slightly silly thing to say, and for your information it was nothing to do with technique - it was to do with my stature whilst playing (Funny how I only ever got pain on Maple Leaf Rag though isn't it), therefore I think it was quite harsh of you to call it idiotic.. And I do have quite a good repatoire actually, I can play numerous Mozart Sonatas, Chopin Etudes, A couple of Hungarian Rhapsodies, Beethoven Sonata's and a lot more, yet I still wouldn't call it simple. Oh, and also... I edited my other post because it's so 'dangerous' and 'idiotic'.

Hi

I don't want to assume anything, but presumably when you were not having lessens, you didn't practise much. If this is true, then it is probably that you are 'new' to playing. Although, you may be able to play the actual piece, technique just spins out of the mind if you do not have lessens. If I were you, I'd practise SLOWLY, however boring that may be, and buy an exercise book that will help on technique.
Just remember:
1. TECHNIQUE!!!!!!!
2. SLOWLY!!!!!!
and
3. ENJOY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope this helps!!

Just a quick report back to say that the above advice in particular really does seem to have worked. I managed the best part of an hour's practice this afternoon on the piece with only the very occasional twinge (though, boy, was it weird trying to get the right feeling at first ). I also seemed to be playing the piece rather better, which is a rather unexpected bonus, though I guess it makes sense if the pain was down to poor technique in the first place. So a big to PianoDoodler for the post!!

You could not be more welcome.

I know about this stuff because I endured tension for so many years at the start of my career. Nobody who taught me either picked up on it or, if they did, knew what to do about it - and that includes RNCM teachers (a long time ago, so no reflection on current staff).

I am only too pleased to help anyone cut short the process of learning how to play without harmful tension; doing it on your own takes far too long.

IMO ALL piano teachers should make sure they are fully acquainted with these problems and be in a position to guide and help a student suffering from them.

If not tackled they can either seriously limit someone's progress and perhaps even cause semi-permanent problems and damage.