Has anyone sent a child on one of the RCO's introductory courses for children - there is one this April called Finding your feet, and another next week in Ipswich.

I am interested in knowing whether the child enjoyed themselves etc .... I am thinking of sending my child who is interested in the organ to see if it is worth pursuing further, but the child is understandably nervous. The child plays the piano at grade 5 or 6 level.

Yes, definitely go for it. I've had several pupils who went on these things; one is a current Oxbridge Organ Scholar, one is organ scholar at a well know red brick university and the other has just passed his grade 6 (still at school). I used to live in Ipswich, so I know the organs. I've also met Will and Peter, two of the tutors, and they are very good.

I wish there had been something like this when I was their age. However, despite the organ world being particularly unfriendly at that stage, I still stuck with it!

Thank you for your encouraging reply. I have shown it to her, and I think she will give it a go. It seems a good way to try out the instrument.

I am now worried having read the posts on this board about organ playing ruining your piano playing - not something I had taken into consideration.

I don't think learning the organ would necessarily ruin piano playing. The technique for the two instruments is quite different, and as long as your daughter realises this, there should be no problem in using the correct technique for whichever instrument she's playing at the time.

I would go for it.

Swell Box Junior has attended both the POTS (Pulling Out the Stops) weekend course at Oundle, and the recent Raise Your Game day in Newcastle.

These events were very 'busy', with lots of moving around between organs and churches, which meant that individual sessions were sometimes a little shorter than planned, and some topics were not covered as comprehensively as they might have been. Nevertheless, the courses were very enjoyable, encouraging and inspirational, and provided rare opportunities for early stage organists to play some very interesting instruments. I just wish these courses had been run forty years ago.

As for losing the ability to play the piano properly; I think you will find there are plenty of people who can play both instruments equally well; although they may have a personal preference for one or the other. The organ is a very different instrument to a piano, with a very different feel.

There is also a huge difference in feel between organs with tracker action (which often have a very ‘heavy’ action), and electrically coupled organs, which are usually much lighter. And don’t forget, pianos too vary a great deal in their touch, especially between electronic, upright and grand pianos. As long as the student continues to play the piano regularly I’m sure there will be no problem.

SB

One of the posts may have been mine because I mentioned the fact that one of my pupils lost his piano technique completely after taking organ lessons. But the point was, he never told me he was learning the organ. I simply didn't realise what the problem was until a lot of time had been wasted. I am quite sure that if I had known (and I could kick myself for not guessing) this would not have happened because we would have been able to work on the differences in technique required. So as long as your daughter and her teachers are aware that different techniques which are not mutually exclusive will be required I don't think you need to worry.

If it is any consolation I had a young adult pupil who had done piano with me for several years and then took up the harpsichord with another teacher. She did tell me and the spin off was she kept her piano technique and I learnt quite a lot abou tthe harpsichord.

This may provide some encouragement too.
http://www.mander-organs.com/discussion/in...?showtopic=1515

At the RCO Presentation Day in Southwark Cathedral last Saturday, David Sanger spoke about starting youngsters on the organ at Grade 2 or thereabouts. He said some exciting work had been done in other countries, even providing raised pedals so that some rudimentary pedal parts could be played by those whose feet would not reach the pedal board.

It certainly seems that there is a move away from the previous 'wisdom' that Grade Eight Associated Board piano was the starting point for learning the organ.

Barry Williams

Yes; I gather David believes very strongly in getting youngsters to play on the organ at the earliest opportunity - as I think he did himself.

I mention this because SBJ, who had received very little piano tuition at all, found David's tutor book Play the Organ immensely helpful.

SB

Yes, it is funny how times change. Barry's recollection of his youth when Grade 8 was the norm, had changed to Grade 5 being the norm when I was a lad. However, the change to get them on younger may be related to the AB syllabuses themselves. It started at Grade 4 back in the 1980s (in fact all woodwind and brass didn't start till grade 3 either, no Prep certificate in those days). The chance for pupils to get some recognition for playing manuals only (grade 3 and under) is a good opportunity for players to get used to the feel of playing the manuals before involving the feet. I have had one pupil who did Grade 3, he was already a competent pianist, and it gave him the confidence to carry on.

On a related topic, does anyone have any views on the maximum age at which children should start formal tuition on the piano or organ (if they are ever to achieve a 'reasonable' standard)?

I ask this because last week, an elderly organist told SBJ (I quote) "you'll never get anywhere with that lad; you've started much too late". When pressed, the old chap said that he should have been playing before he was 12. (He is now 16.)

I know that many great composers were playing at the age of three, and I retrospect I can see it is a great advantage for children to pass Grade 8 before their 12th birthdays; but children don't always want to settle to music lessons at such a young age, and it seems a great shame to deny them the opportunity on the grounds that they are ‘too old’.

Needless to say SBJ is not in the least bothered about it, but I just wondered whether anyone had an opinion?

SB

That sort of talk makes me so mad! What business did this organist have being so discouraging towards a youngster - even if it were true (which emphatically it is not!) I would allow that it is a damned sight easier to make progress if you start young and some adult starters may be hampered by a variety of disadvangates, like slower learning, poorer retention, or physical problems, but this is very far from saying they'll never get anywhere.

In any case, define "anywhere"! Not everyone wants to be a concert organist. Some may be perfectly happy pottering around, not achieving very much. I once had a pupil who just wanted to play the organ, but wasn't interested at all in learning how to do it properly. She was happy; it was me that wasn't!

A year or two back, Organists' Review ran a series of articles about adult learners. They were a summary someone's academic research, so rather general in nature, but I remember an interesting graph of attainment levels and it was clear that there are not a few cases of adult beginners achieving diplomas.

I have an adult learner who first came to me seven years ago, aged 54. He had had a few piano lessons as a kid and because of that he had been dragooned into playing the organ at a local church. His technique was understandably very ropey and he had no sense of rhythm and only a patchy understanding of notation and theory. He also has some physical and neurological problems with his hands that handicap his playing. Nevertheless, through sheer dogged persistence, determination and daily hard graft (two or three hours disciplined practice a day), he has achieved merits at each of grades 2, 3 and 4. He won't go "anywhere", but my goodness he has certainly got "somewhere" and he gets immense satisfaction out of having done so.

That is interesting.

I didn't say so before, but the gentleman in question is not, by his own admission, a particularly good organist himself, (I wouldn’t disagree with him on that); although he did start young - certainly before he could reach the pedalboard.

There are of course some exceptional young performers, but to my ear, many tend to play in a rather ‘mechanical’ fashion even as they get older.

There is also the important matter of enjoyment! After all, what else is music for if not to be enjoyed?

It might just be me, but I do find that many older folk seem to want to hog the organ stool much longer than is good for them, and for the rest of us!

SB

Ah, well, that does put a slightly different perspective on his comment!


I can't speak for others, but purely personally... absolutely!!

He's completely wrong, of course. I started organ lessons at 16, having got Grade 4 piano. I managed to get into the RAM with organ as my first study 3 years later, and there is nothing exceptional about that. At 12 I didn't have the necessary motivation to practice any instrument properly, but at 16 I'd matured sufficiently to progress.

I hope SBJ didn't take a blind bit of notice.

Ses.

No; quite the opposite in fact.

SB