I've begun learning the Debussy Arabesque No.1-I'm a LONG way off ever being able to play it even semi-compentently, but it's a lovely piece so I thought I'd give a go in the full knowledge it's still abit too tricky for me however-the triplets against quavers are absolutely baffling me! I have been taught to play triplets/quavers such as this:if you were tapping your hands on the desk, you'd tap both hands together, then the right hand, then the left, then the right again, then both hands together, and continue on as such (presuming the quavers are in the left hand and the triplets are in the right). I'd be practicing this piece very very slowly, playing the notes as such, but as soon as I've come to speed it up, it now sounds bizarre! Can anybody give me any tips on playing the rhythms against one another?

Fran, I'll ask my teacher as I am seeing her at 3pm and she has played this. Also Solari has played lots of different note combinations between boths hands (I remember him mentioning it in a post). I am sure he could help? However saying that I am sure there are many more forumites that can help you.

Lots of people have difficulty with 2 against 3 , 3 against 4 , 4 against 6 etc. But its usually just down to sheer practice, and it all comes together in time.
The piece I am playing at the Leeds 'do' on Saturday is full of them ! Not the Debussy though (I might have considered it however)

I think this is something you need to sit down and tackle with your teacher - there are a few verbal phrases that you can say in your head while playing to give you an idea of how it should sound, and you can break them down into a lowest common denominator and count, but I found the best thing was to just work on it with my teacher and practice with a metronome.

All these XvY notes seem tricky and odd at first... I thought 5v2 7v2, 3v2, 6v2, 10v2, 8v6 were impossible until I played some pieces with them in with my teacher's guidance!

I learnt it by playing a scale in the 'quaver-hand' and broken chords (e.g. CEG) in the same key in the 'triplet-hand'

Or scales with 2 octaves in one hand and three in the other.



The rhythm is Nice - cup - of - tea - Nice - cup - of - tea - Nice - cup - of - tea -....



With notes together on "Nice"

Lots of good advice above. Another is plenty of hands separate practice. [Fine for the Debussy Arabesque, not so much use later, when you practice pieces with a 2 v 3 rhythm between 2 parts played by the same hand!!].

2 v 3 is the easiest of the polyrhythms. [Just wait till you start studying Scriabin!]. Before long you will look back on these posts and wonder how you could ever have thought ithat 2 v 3 was difficult.

Ahh, my father would love this. Splitting the brain ~ so both parts think independently while playing an out of sync piece of music.

I guess clicking the fingers tapping the foot can help learn this initially as its all to do with the way the brain processes info.

I was taught it with


Hot.............. cup....................tea (RH)
Hot......................of..................... (LH)


so same idea as StuMac. It took AGES of 'mechanical' practice until it suddenly clicked and it is still with me a few decades later. Do start learning the contrasting bits almost from the start, it helps to keep the frustration level down. Good luck, enjoy!

(please excuse the 'dots', I've been tying myself in knots to try to get these to line up. Lots of spaces doesn't seem to work when the post is submitted!)

I knew what you meant, Minstrel, thank you very much
Thank you to everybody who's replied, I was suddenly terrified I was doing something drastically wrong, this is the way I'm playing it, just obviously not precisely enough yet I don't mind if it's just something I have to keep practicing, I just didn't want to keep practicing it wrong!

I've never really had problems with 2 against 3 but when working for grade 8 I just couldn't get the Debussy going. Might come back to it some time but after 6 weeks getting nowhere we decided to try something else instead.

I don't find that one a problem, I'm afraid. I concentrate on the RH and let the LH go on auto-pilot.

It's bunches of fives that I have problems with!

Hip-po-pot-a-mus????

Rim-sky-Kor-sa-kov, too!

Forgive me, but I didn't mean on their own, I meant against other unforgiving groupings.

If you are able to record one hand and play the other against it, that helps a lot.

Failing that, lots of hands separate practice with a metronome.

I also find that playing it faster rather than slower helps at first subject to being able to play the notes. I was playing the Chopin Fantasie-Impromptu last night slowly (1/4 speed) and that is 4 against 3 - and it was much much more difficult than at tempo. It made my head go funny.

What I sometimes do is set the metronome on the quaver speed and then clap the triplets, and then vice versa. I find it gets the right rhythms into my head!

now the weird thing is.. I can play triplets against quavers on a piano, but if you ask me to tap on a table with one hand quavers and one triplets, I can't. At all.

Practising triplets against quavers is one of the things I do on the table or my lap when I get bored. (along with taking two different parts from a band arrangement and trying to play onw with each hand. It gets my brain working! )

I find that anything against 2 notes is very easy to play.
The problems arise when you have to play the likes of 8v3, 13v12 and 9v5.
The 13v12 which I am thinking of was actually very strange as it wasn't marked as an irregular time grouping and it was also more like 6.5v6. The score is below.





I find that:

Not................dif...................cult (RH)
Not......................fi.................... (LH)

Works very well as it is just a mental reminder that it really isn't very difficult at all.

And for 4v3:

Not.....ve.......di......cult (RH)
Not........ry........fi........ (LH)

Initially I was thinking of A Hill Tune by Arnold Bax

Then the final variation (XXXII) from Beethoven's C minor Variations where in 3/4 the RH plays two beamed groups of seven semiquavers, followed by eight demiseiquavers, whilst the LH plays six groups of demisemiquavers each beamed in groups of five.

I find when coordinating rhythms like 2 against 3, two lines of attack are needed. The first is the type of work you have already done, working out how to tap the rhythms precisely against one another, then carefully transferring that to the piano. However, if this is all that is done then this is taken to full speed, this mathematically perfect result can sound surprisingly unmusical, which may explain why you are still unsatisfied with the result.

The next stage is to achieve a musical flow, so the listener is not too aware of the mathematical process involved. In this arabesque, I believe this is achieved through ensuring a minim rather than a crotchet beat, and indeed lightening the second minim within the bar so it is almost like one in a bar. I should emphasise that it is not necessary to play terribly fast in order to achieve this. Then crucially balance the hands so the emphasis is in the right hand. The flowing right hand is where the listener must be able to mainly focus. The right hand then must not sound too deliberate. It is hard to explain without demonstrating but I hope this is some help.

"Not................dif...................cult (RH)
Not......................fi.................... (LH)

Works very well as it is just a mental reminder that it really isn't very difficult at all. "


That's BRILLIANT!

cute! but I'd say

is closer

Chris

is what I use

Awwh, I like this one!

A little overly patronising perhaps?

Apologies if it came out like that - I just wanted to point out that the "fi" should be nearer the "cult" than the "di", and I used a fixed-width font to make the timings exact.

Chris

No problem. Things can very often be misunderstood when people can't talk face to face.

I learnt something similar for this piece too
it's Together - Right - Left - Right. T- R- L - R.
I practised this just by clapping on my thighs then worked it up to practising to E's on the piano then the actual notes. It's just something that takes practise but when you learn it, it suddently clicks and you'll notice it alot easier to pick up on other pieces too. There was a thread about this piece a while back i'm sure.
PSL