At risk of asking a silly question, is it possible to achieve the 'English' sound (as opposed to French, German or American) without playing on a wide bore clarinet?

I'm starting to think about possible upgrade instruments and in doing to, am considering what kind of a sound I'm hoping to achieve. I am drawn to what I believe is known as the 'English' sound but would like to learn to be a good all rounder and don't want to invest in an instrument that might make it difficult for me to play Jazz, for example, particularly as I am still very much a learner. Would a wide bore instrument limit me in this way?

I would be grateful for input from anyone who owns a wide bore B &H or Hanson. I also understand that Peter Eaton make wide bore instruments - sadly, these are out of my league at the moment (not to mention price range!) but again, grateful for advice from anyone lucky enough to own one!

I understand (and I may be wrong on this) that Jack Brymer could play Jazz which was indistinguishable from Benny Goodman on his 10 10s. Could Benny Goodman also play classical like Jack Brymer on his Selmers? (After some quick research, it seems that Benny Goodman was also a respected classical musician - please forgive my ignorance!)

Obviously, I realise that in the end it's all down to the skill of the player. Realistically, I'm an adult restarter and I think if I had any particularly outstanding musical talent, it would have been discovered long ago! However, having given up in my teens, I intend to stick with this now for as long as it takes and just see how far I can get - if I can make a nice sound along the way, so much the better!

It was certainly very similar.

Achieving an 'English' sound isn't easy without an 'English' styled clarinet. You can get close, but nailing the sound right on the button really requires an English styled instrument. You can certainly get your own style, clarijo, and to be honest, I tend not to think of achieving a sound like anyone in particular, or in any style, I aim to sound like me.

Would a wide bore limit you...I doubt it would to any great extent - it's really a case of achieving the sound clarijo wants. It's not just the bore : mouthpieces, reeds, ligatures, barrels : these all contribute to the sound, and it's about achieving a combination that suits you.

I won't repeat what Barry said but

The main limitation i can think of is in choice of mouthpieces - the easily available ones are matched to a French bore instrument.

Thanks for the replies so far. I have a lovely mouthpiece which I know would be totally unsuitable but I am still curious and will probably at least try some wide bore instruments out when the time comes! As an intermediate level player, would I find it difficult to switch from French bore to wide bore? Again, interested to hear from any players who have done this.

Also, for anyone out there who plays wide bore, I would be interested in your preferred music style and also does anyone play one successfully (ie at a fairly loud dynamic!) in a wind band? I imagine that this might be a bit of a challenge!

Taxidriver has a Peter Eaton.
I've played a little on her clarinet and had no difficulty playing it.
I'd probably need longer to really decide but I didn't feel that it would be the right instrument for me.

I played Emperors from the age of 11 to 29, nearly bought a pair of Imperials at 20, realised the wider bore gave me the sound I wanted, dithered for a few more years, then had a go on a friend's wide bore Yamaha and started looking around for a pair of 1010s. For me it was the only way to make the sound I wanted - I need to be able to fit the knuckle of my little finger i0n the mouthpiece, then I sound nice! I had no trouble adjusting; I was playing orchestrally (plus some clarinet quintets) a lot from the age of 26 to 32 and didn't find the transition difficult at all. I did have to have the mouthpiece bored out to match the instrument though - notes without the right hand were very sharp till I had that done.

For me, the De Peyer sound is the way to go :-) Richard Hosford manages to get a fantastic variety of different colours out of his wide bore Eatons - when I first heard him at the Wigmore Hall I didn't like his tone at all but the clarinettist I was with said "no, that's how he's chosen to play this piece" (schumann op 73 I think) and sure enough he made a much fatter sound later on (forgotten in what!).

But it is not the case that all my favourite players play wide bore instruments; just the case that I need the wide bore to make the sound I like. Anthony Pay manages fine on Buffets!

Many thanks for this, Dulcet. I'm very much at an early stage of researching my options and want to make sure that I've considered everything in my search ie vintage instruments such as B and H, as well as the more mainstream modern popular makes and models.

My knowledge of Boosey and Hawkes is limited. I played a 1982 Regent in school. I know that the Edgware was the next model up and then the Emperor and Imperial models. What I don't know is which were wide bore and which were French bore - I seem to think that they made both and I'm certain that my student Regent wasn't wide bore! I also don't know where the 1010s fit in to this. I seem to think that I've read somewhere that the export version of the Edgware was a something-10 but I'm not 100% sure of this!

I'm considering a vintage (50s or 60s) R13 and my teacher also suggested the Selmer 10G. Can anyone give me an idea of what the roughly equivalent B and H model would be?

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me so far!



Thanks for this, sbhoa. Do you know whether it was English or French bore?

I play a Peter Eaton "Elite", that's the wide bore one. I'm not an expert, I chose it because of all the instruments I've played (including a Peter Eaton "International" which is the normal French bore one) it makes what I consider to be the most beautiful sound. It's like falling in love, there are lots of good ones around but when you know, you know.

English

Thanks, sbhoa - that was probably a silly question but just wanted to be sure it was the English one!




Clarimoo - I'm very envious!

I got it second hand, I was very lucky.

Dont worry about the names, just try all the claris you can and go for what sounds best to you. I think the "Englishness/ jazziness/ chocolateyness/brightness/ smoothness/anythingness comes from you not the instrument.

Yes, I agree with this and with Barry's earlier comments about individual sound but I've tweaked the sound of my basic student Yamaha recently with (another!) change of mouthpiece and the addition of a longer wooden barrel and it's made such an improvement that I'm now curious about trying other instruments!

Oh yes, go for it clarijo, and if you can try different combinations of mouthpiece/instrument as well, that'd be good too

[quote name='clarijo' date='Aug 24 2010, 11:06 PM' post='982335']
Many thanks for this, Dulcet. I'm very much at an early stage of researching my options and want to make sure that I've considered everything in my search ie vintage instruments such as B and H, as well as the more mainstream modern popular makes and models.

My knowledge of Boosey and Hawkes is limited. I played a 1982 Regent in school. I know that the Edgware was the next model up and then the Emperor and Imperial models. What I don't know is which were wide bore and which were French bore - I seem to think that they made both and I'm certain that my student Regent wasn't wide bore! I also don't know where the 1010s fit in to this. I seem to think that I've read somewhere that the export version of the Edgware was a something-10 but I'm not 100% sure of this!

I'm considering a vintage (50s or 60s) R13 and my teacher also suggested the Selmer 10G. Can anyone give me an idea of what the roughly equivalent B and H model would be?

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me so far!


The Regent, Edgware and Emperor were standard bore - respectively cheap plastic and nickel, denser plastic and nickel, wood and silver plate. Imperial 926 was wider, Symphony 1010 wider still. You could get Edgwares upwards in pairs.

HTH!

Yes that helps very much, thank you! As I understand it, the Imperial might nowadays be considered an entry level professional instrument but do correct me if I'm wrong! I now understand why I've seen some B & H instruments for sale with Vandoren mouthpieces too!

I'm now thinking that the Imperial might be worth a try but I think I would very much like to see what kind of sound I can make on a 1010!

The Imperial 926 and the Symphony 1010 were the top of the B&H range, the imperial was a slightly narrower bore and the 1010 a wide bore. I owned and regularly played a 1010 until a year ago but have now sold it on. They are lovely clarinets but were last manufactured around 1982 so even the newest ones are around 30 years old. The throat notes were awful and you do need a compatible mouthpiece or you will struggle with the intonation on a 1010. Mine went off to a loving home in Australia

Ah - so the Imperial was on a par with the 1010, just with a different bore? Will bear in mind your comment about the throat notes!

My teacher plays an old B and H wide bore (not sure if it's a 1010 ) and he certainly can play loud enough in band!!!!

We're playing in Pocklington next weekend - fancy a listen???

'Scuse the hignorance (I'm an oboist, y'know)... but what is the difference between an English, German, French or American sound?

Oboists like to discuss this a lot and use the same nationalities as references. But there is an emerging view that differences on national lines are disappearing and are more individual. The construction of the instrument itself is only one element in the sound - reeds are critical too, embouchure style etc etc.

So what's a really "English Sound" on the clarinet?

Hmmm....difficult to explain without demonstrating, but I'll try....

The French sound is the brightest of the lot : American and English sounds are mellower/richer - and I'd say English is mellower than American. German : different kettle of fish, largely because to get a true German sound, you need a German (Oehler) system clarinet, which is different from the clarinets you usually see in this country. The German sound is quite exact and perhaps not as varied in different tone colours as other clarinets : which is not saying it's bad, just different.

Well, there you go... I learned something new today!

Rather different from oboe variations. American is much mellower (darker, they say) than the brighter, brassy, resonant English sound . German, rich and powerful. French, a nice sweet sound. And so forth. Well, that's more or less how I hear them... but there are probably as many differing opinions on this as there are oboists!

Clarinet style here is pretty mellow too. At least good clarinettists sound mellow. Probably American influence, I imagine.

Darker is often used to describe clarinet sound too, katica.

Would have loved to but already have plans for next weekend! That's good to know about band playing, though!



Hi Katica - I think the references to different countries are more historical now. Barry's explained it really well (as usual!) but if you Google it, there are lots of internet articles with further detail. The one I found most useful was from the International Clarinet Association (perhaps there's an International Oboe Association too? )

I'll come back on and post a link later but have to go and sort out our (very late) supper now!

All set to say something meaningful and I've forgotten the bloke's name. AH got it.
Karl Leister's sound is so smooth and mellow as to become bland over the course of a whole CD. But it is utterly beautiful, just not varied enough.
Walter Boeykens (sp? Belgian guy) is a fabulous musician with enough "englishness" (probably more americanness actually) for me to like the sound but a little variation edging over to frenchness where called for by the music.

Emma Johnson probably epitomises the English sound, playing an English wide-bore instrument.

There are some interesting South American instruments out there, but silly money and hard to come by in the UK...

Oh heck another name I've forgotten. The bloke who used to be principal in the BBCSO before Richard Hosford - he was a 1010 player with phenomenal projection (not obtrusively so when heard on TV but a friend who'd had lessons with him said he blasted him out of the room!) His sound was very typically English in the Brymer mode. Hang on, I've got a piece edited by him, stand by.... no, I remembered before i found the piece, it's Colin Bradbury.

Is that enough for an itunes browse to check these guys out???

Here is the link http://www.clarinet.org/clarinetFestArchive.asp?archive=65
It's quite a long article but worth a read, I think!




This is great - thank you! Will be paying a visit to itunes next!

One more thing - I remember a few years ago (about 10 yrs back) being in email conversation with a concert band clarinettist who wanted to spend an inheritance on a new clarinet. She bought a Peter Eaton Elite and was delighted with it. She kept her old instrument for outdoor gigs but I know that she played very successfully in a concert band with a wide bore. Way back in the olden days the military bands all used 1010s before they switched to buffets in the late 70s IIRC (sorry that is prehistory for a lot of you!!!)

Would love to try an Elite - sadly not in a position to buy one!

The fact that military bands also used 1010s is interesting and makes perfect sense. I have to confess that I remember the late 1970s very well, so it's not prehistory for me!!

I've been listening to the players you suggested in your earlier post and they each have the kind of sound I love, so many thanks for the recommendations!