Have had 2 of these recently...

both adults - both wanting lessons after a break. Both saying "I'm Grade 5 standard" - both so far from Grade 5 standard it's almost a joke!!

Both came with the Grade 5 pieces and CD already bought, wanting to learn them.

How do you deal with this? So far, they've only had one lesson...so it's been a bit of "getting to know" rather than doing anything with their Grade 5 pieces. I've questioned them about their previous lessons/teacher/exams.

One last did Grade 3, but thinks they are ready for Grade 5.

One is convinced they want to do Grade 5 this December!! Impossible...

I've said that there is a huge gap between Grade 3 and 5 (violin) and that they would benefit from doing some work on technique and refreshing their skills before tackling Grade 5 stuff (I personally also think that the Grade 5 violin music this time is really difficult - and actually prefer the Grade 6 stuff...)

How do other teachers broach the subject that they're maybe ever so slightly deluded about their current ability?

You have no option but to be honest with them, and go back - you're doing them a disservice otherwise because it will have such a negative effect on their future progress. If they don't like it, then the worst they can do is not come back; however, if they're absolutely convinced of their ability at that level and they're no going to listen to you, then maybe they're not worth having anyway - they'll be incredibly difficult to teach on this basis.

It isn't nice when you have to do this, but it's reality. You might be surprised at the reaction? Quite often, a previous teacher has pushed them on too quickly, and they're relieved to find out that in fact, they don't have to plough on with things they are obviously finding difficult.

S_G

I handed my Peters volume of Liszt to my teacher at the end of my last lesson and asked, "What else in there might I possibly be able to tackle?" He scanned the contents page thoughfully ...... I said, "Please don't be afraid to say, 'Sorry, but that's your lot!'"

Have you asked them why they want to take exams? Is perhaps grade 5 the minimum level for a local orchestra that they want to join? In which case perhaps they might be able to go and sit in on a rehearsal and they would realise for themselves that there is a gap between what they can play now and what would be expected of them in an orchestra.

If it's just because they think exams are "what you do," you could point out that learning an instrument is about other things than taking exams. You could say that you need time to get to know new pupils before entering them for exams, that they don't have to do all the exams and, since you genuinely thinkthe grade 6 syllabus is more interesting you could perhaps tell them this and suggest they simply work on technique in non-exam pieces for some specified time (6 months, a year or whatever) and at that point review their progress and decide which level to enter them for, if they still want to do exams. It's probably also worth pointing out that exams are not just pieces and that they need time to learn scales, become familiar with aural tests and maybe improve sight-reading (although presumably you could check their sight-reading level straight away).

Another possibility would be to try and enable them to hear a pupil who really is at grade 5. With a bit of luck they'll be able to hear the difference.

Ah, taking on pupils from another teacher, always fun!

There's already good advice here, but you can have my tuppenceworth too...

Show them the supporting tests for the grade - sight-reading in particular - so they can see the additional work involved.
Let them know that between grades you should work on other repertoire to develop your skills - perhaps ask some questions about that, "So, how have you done when playing a piece with <insert technical thing here>? Ah, you haven't done that before? Well, we'll need to have a look at that before we move on.../Ah, well, let me here that piece then? Hmm, we'll need to work on that before we move on..."


I had two girls start with me about a year ago, one having sat her Grade 5 the previous session, one having sat her Grade 3. The Grade 5 brought with her her old notebook, and looking back through it I found that she'd been playing 2 of the pieces - I remember Jackson Street Blues was one - for over a year each. We've spent this year just on expanding her repertoire, and she's now starting looking at pieces for Grade 6. (I didn't quite plan it this way, but a couple of the pieces we covered over the year have given her experience she needed for the pieces she's chosen for Grade 6. Yay!) She's still not as 'secure' as my home-grown pupils of a similar level, but I'm hoping she'll do well.
The Grade 3 girl was less of a success. I think she might've been 'hot-housed' to that level in a similar way to the other lass - she already had the Grade 4 book. In reality she could just barely cope with pieces at about Grade 2 standard. It was so sad, she was a nice girl, and pretty keen, but to be honest, I think she'd never learned to practice regularly because she never seemed to progress much from week to week. I tried using easier pieces as 'exercises', which had some success, since she could start a piece one week and then have a new one the next, or the week after - but she really didn't have a proper foundation to work on. She hasn't come back this year...

I always assess a new pupil at the 1st lesson and make my own judgement as to what standard they are.

Thanks for the replies

Yes, Violin Hero - I do too - and would put these at Grade 2-3 - however, telling an adult who's older than me that they're perception of their own level is a bit skewed is hard

But I've gotta do it because there's no way I'm entering them for Grade 5 anytime soon!

They've only had one lesson, and both went away having learned something (how to hold the bow properly and some simple bowing exercises to keep their bow straight!!!!) and were pleased with their lesson - now to see how pleased they're going to be when I tell them that maybe Grade 5 is a way off yet!

I'm going to ask to see a copy of their Grade 3 exam results if they've still got them...

I agree with kerioboe that your best bet is to let them hear what players of that standard actually play like, and leave them to draw their own conclusions. If they still feel they're there, while you know they're not, then you really have a problem!

I think it is reasonable to say to any new pupil that it will take up to a term for you to properly assess their abilities and level and get to know them before considering preparing them for an exam. This buys you a reasonable amount of time, and is a realistic assessment period. I've sometimes found that my initial assessment of a student is wide of the mark, because so much depends on how much work they are prepared to put in and therefore how quickly they progress. I've been wrong in both directions...

I find a good way of broaching the 'you are not ready for the next exam' topic is to get them to play something eg a piece or some scales or whatever, then go through the marking criteria in "These Music Exams" and ask them how they would mark themselves on that performance. You don't actually need to say much - most adults are more than willing to be highly self-critical... At the other end of the scale, I have used the same strategy to encourage under-confident candidates!

I'm a mature adult student and obviously we're all different, but I never think of my teachers' ages as being important. Where music's concerned, it's their knowledge, skill and experience that counts and age doesn't come into it.

It might be nice if you could let them down gently, but please don't feel bad about having to do it. If you can find a nice atonal piece of sightreading which bears no relationship to the key signature and is littered with accidentals, that ought to do the trick

Enter Schoenberg! "Happy Birthday to you! ...."

Same here.

I agree. My oboe teachers have both been considerably younger than me - and considerably better I have no problem taking advice from young, experienced teachers. That's what I'm paying for.

this thread makes me think of 'me'

I changed teacher last year in June....

and although I did not go to my trial lesson saying 'I am at grade 5 level' I did go with the grade 5 book saying I had just started to learn some of the pieces and my short term goal was to take grade 5 next (having taken grade 1 two years previously), did not say I had to do by a certain 'deadline' buy yes..... that was more or less the 'introduction' I wonder what my teacher 'really' thought

anyway....I came from a 'dreadful teacher' who taught me NO technique so I am sure my new teacher had a big challenge in front of him! I ended up taking my grade 5 in March 2010 (started with new teacher June 2009), in January/february 2010 he mentioned to sit the grade 5 in June but I said to him I was FED UP with these same pieces and preparing for grade 5 (having done this for a year) and either it was March or we should forget about it altogether and we could do another exam another time in future (ie grade 7 whenever in x years time) but teacher replied: it's ok, let's put you in for March, you can do it!

and so I did and got out of it with a Merit, to me a disappointment but I was relieved as I really was SO FED UP WITH IT!!

When I started with him if he said to me 'look, I think we would be better off putting this to one side for a while and do some other music and things to help you 'leap forward'' I think I would have appreciated it more than ploughing along with these grade 5 pieces months after month after month prospectively doing it for one whole year with him, as if I didn't 'nail him' in february he would have entered me for June and that would have made it ONE year of preparation for grade 5 with him, yes I think I would have preferred an honest 'you're not quite there yet' than 12 months of grade five pieces

Now that I've got the grade 5 behind me the next step I'd like is grade 8 and I've said to him: the next achievement I'd like to tick off is grade 8 so let's just have fun and do anything we feel like doing and the day YOU think I am ready to take grade 8 you tell me ok?

Yes, I had another one today
She took gd3 last term with another teacher and just passed..but not sure how..
I'll assess her gradually as from the 1st lesson you can only tell what has/hasn't been taught so far (in this case, not much!), but it will be over the coming weeks that I can assess the pupil herself.

I came to my current teacher in March this year with the vague plan of doing Grade VIII at some point before the current syllabus runs out. I said that I had done Grade VII in 1998 and hadn't played regularly since 1999 - so I would assume she knew what to expect.

We've been dealing with some interesting holes in my technique (I don't think I ever learned to breathe properly!) and I've been learning double tonguing (really difficult), vibrato (which seemed to prove that I didn't support notes properly) and playing pieces from about Grade III upwards, together with duets and sightreading

When I went to my first lesson, I took along all the music I had - and have used quite a lot of the books since. I've also accumulated quite a few Grade VIII pieces, some for my birthday, one off a CD of music scores I bought and some I just wanted because they sound lovely. I am planning to start working on them when I've finished some of the stuff I'm working on - not counting the necessary studies, which don't usually last that long as they aren't polished, just used and dropped.

I'm not fussed by the theoretical grade of a piece - if it has something I need to learn in it, I'm happy to work on it. We started off with a study I'd played for Grade VI (I think) as I knew it relatively well. From there we've worked on a couple of Grade Vish things (blessed spirits) and various other which aren't on any syllabus (Debussy, random studies) and also a couple of things from the Grade VIII syllabus - Poulenc Sonata as I was working on it before I gave up (because the wretched thing is unfinished business and I WILL eventually play it competently), Mouquet Pan et les Bergers and a few studies which worked on problems which I was having (triplets, and dotted rhythms, and double tonguing). Also working on feeling the beat properly, which seems to be on its way back - finally finished a study I played for an exam in the past (hence amount of scrawl all over it, including a MASSIVE "2" - clearly I never could count for that particular piece!). Next project is to choose and learn a Handel movement which works on double tonguing where you start on the off beat, which was the only problem point of the last study.

As a slight aside, how can prospective pupils who already play describe themselves to a new teacher?

Living in France where there are no grade exams I have no real idea of what "level" I am on the oboe or at what level my children are on their various instruments.

When I was looking at music courses (for both me and my daughters) which gave levels in grade terms I looked at the repertoire we were playing (and for my daughters the scale requirements, since I assumed this gave an idea of the highest and lowest notes which could be expected) and tried to guess from there. But this is not really a very useful way of doing it since it gives no idea of how the pieces are supposed to be played. And of course completely ignores the supporting tests, which may be important if you want to take an exam but possibly not otherwise.

Episodically I think I might like to have piano lessons again and wonder how I would describe myself. About the only thing I can say is "I used to play a lot better 25 years ago than I do now" but I am not sure that this is necessarily very helpful.

In other words what would you like people with some experience of the instrument to tell you? What is helpful to know and what would you rather not know?

I've been thinking about this! When I went to my last teacher as an adult wanting to do Grade 8 I made a point of having at least one of the exam pieces at a reasonable level before I went near him, as I realised that he would probably not be able to make any sort of judgement on me otherwise. I had never done exams before and my only experience of them was from the small number of pupils that I had at that time, who were children of friends whom I had (very successfully) put through lower grades. The pupils having done well, coupled with the fact that I was enjoying them so much and wanted more, made me feel that I really ought to have some credentials myself, so my plan (which kept to myself at the initial trial lesson) was to do Grade 8 and then a diploma. If I had turned up without a Grade 8 piece almost already in the bag my teacher would probably have been like the teachers on this thread who assess their new pupil to at a much lower standard than the pupil thinks! My half baked unperfected repertoire at the time would not have convinced anybody that I was capable of doing Grade 8 within the next term or two, which was what I wanted to do. I had never really made a point of holding things at a performable standard up to that point; I learnt something to my own satisfaction and then moved on to something else and rarely touched old pieces again. When I asked my teacher if he thought I was up to what I wanted to do his answer was, "It depends on how hard you work," which was a fair enough response. I had that trial lesson in June, was given some advice and told to let him see how things were going in September, with a view to starting seriously then, and at that point he said, "Yes, you're definitely up to doing this sooner rather than later."

So I think the pupil bears some responsibility for convincing the teacher by being able to perform something at the level the pupil wants to pitch in at, but also needs to be aware that the teacher will need to see how quickly the pupil can throw more new repertoire together before making a definite decision as to what the pupil's standard is.

This makes sense but would you (as a teacher) necessarily expect a pupil to put a "grade" to their level?
Or is it easier for you if the pupil just brings several pieces they have been working on to play to you and let you make up your own mind?

I am aware of a whole lot of precise things that need improving in my piano playing (and one of the reasons I have not looked into having lessons very seriously is that I do actually know what sort of exercices I could be doing to improve them) but I am also sure that there are other problems that I am not aware of, which are possibly more important to correct first. Is it helpful to have a pupil say "I think I need to work on this, this and this" or would you rather make up your own mind?

And do all pupils turn up saying they want to do exams?

Yes they do! Older ones, anyway. I've had three adults come recently not having had a teacher for a few years and wanting specifically to do grades 5, 6 and 7. In each case they were able to show me on the first lesson that they could play pieces either at the right level (in their opinion and mine) or from the syllabus (three different boards, incidentally!), and it was clear to me from the first lesson that they were going to be able to take advice on detail. In all three cases they had done exams in the past, though, and were fairly well informed about what's required. What they had all been doing was playing for pleasure for a while but were beginning to feel the need again to have a goal to aim for.

If somebody doesn't want to do exams I don't feel the need to put a grade label on them at all. Often there will be some aspects of their playing that will be at a higher level than others.

jojo,

your situation is what I want to avoid with these new pupils. I don't want them to spend the next year plugging away at 3 pieces in order for them to pass the exam that they've set their sights on. But with their current playing ability, this is exactly what would happen.

I explained that there are two ways of approaching an exam...one is to get to that particular level by playing lots of repertoire and developing technique etc, and then learn the pieces for the exam, which should hopefully be an enjoyable experience as they're not struggling with new concepts, but applying their new-found skills to pieces that they will find they learn fairly easily.

I said the other way was to work their way up to a particular grade using the pieces set for the exam, but that the disadvantage of this was that it might sometimes feel like you're climbing a mountain, and that it might take months of playing the same stuff before you get there.

My own pupils who've started from scratch with me go with route 1. That means that my Grade 4 violin pupil is at a much higher playing standard than my 2 new supposedly "working towards Grade 5" pupils. She is already doing vibrato (a very nice vibrato at that) and will use that in her Grade 4 exam in a few weeks to get a very good mark. That will be one box ticked in the technical requirements for Grade 5 before we even start. My 2 new ones are struggling with 3rd position, and only use the middle 3rd of their bow

I would like pupils to bring a piece/pieces they feel they've mastered - no matter what level that piece is - and an idea of their goal....but would like that goal to be flexible, and not "i will take Grade 5 next...no matter how long it takes and I'm going to do nothing but the exam pieces til I've got there" and then be receptive to me suggesting where they're at and opening their minds to alternative repertoire that they might not have considered because it's not on an exam syllabus...

When I took up lessons again, two years ago, in an iniitial email to the teacher I attached a list of piano accompaniments that I had provided for students in their various instruments, including just those whose pieces were grades 6-8, since I had only taken AB Grade 2 piano myself at the time, forty years before.

When I started, I didn't have exams in mind, nor were they mentioned. I merely had this wish to see where my present level of abilty lay and to make progress from there. I took along a piece of Bach to give him an idea of where I was at, something that I hoped I could play without collapsing with nerves! He took things from there.

It wasn't until a couple of months later that I asked my teacher, somewhat out of the blue, if he thought I could realistically tackle Grade 8. So he took me on, irrespective of grade. As it happens, the first three pieces I tackled with him were on the Diploma syllabus, so I took that as a hint that maybe I could get away with asking about it.

Clearly I have made progress of sorts on my own, but nothing like that which I have enjoyed under his tutelage.

I absolutely agree with all that you are saying icklechick,
I don't know what my teacher's thoughts were so I can't speak for him and I don't regret one lesson I have done with him ever (even though there's been a few I have shed tears in and come out of one about to ditch the violin in the next dustbin I would find ), I really do LOVE my current teacher and highly respect him.

But yes, looking back and looking at what's happening now I much prefer what's happening now! which is the approach you are talking about.
My next 'tick box' is grade 8, be it in 6 months time or 3 years time, whenever I might be ready. So with that in mind we are doing lots of technique: am doing all 3 octave scales (minors and majors and ALL OF THEM even E and F which are only in 2 octaves in grade 8), we have not started on double stop scales yet or scales in 6ths/3rds, we are doing dominants/diminished/chromatics sevcik op 1p1 op 1 p2 op 8 up to 8th position, kreutzer 2,4,11,12, shifting on one string with different combination of fingering and scale patterns, artificial harmonics, then we have done pieces which are on grade 7 lists like Meditation from Thais, bach air on G string (the one g string only) we are doing the schubert sonatina in D, next will be schindler's list
so as you see we're having fun
we can drop a piece when we exhausted it enough and pick it up later when we think I have advanced on something and maybe I can then develop that piece more and make it more expressive and precise....

when I went to him with the grade 5 book we did not do 'just 3 pieces' we swapped 2 or 3 times between pieces between june and january, we swapped from sicilienne to andaluza (I think it's because I learnt sicilienne a lot with my previous teacher and my current teacher possibly thought it was 'rather BAD' and instead of making me 'unlearn it and relearn it' he possibly thought learning a new piece was better than wiping my old teacher's prints off ), we did tambourine but then dropped it and did giga instead, we were doing cossack dance but then went for the dance of the snowman instead.

In fact i have learnt 9 grade 5 pieces not 3

I was probably at 'pass' level earlier but my teacher pushes his pupils for distinction that's why he wanted me to sit in june but I was totally ready to GIVE UP by february so he agreed for me to sit it in march and I got a merit, I did say to him I was quite happy not to do it and just a totally different grade another year but he wanted me to do it.

But yes, you are right.

If I were you I'd have an honest chat with these pupils and say:
if we do the grade pieces there's a good chance you may not be ready for x amount of months and a good chance you will get 'bored and stagnant' in x months, if we do other music there's hardly a chance you will get bored and a very good chance you will progress faster overall.
then let them decide which way to go, if they choose to do the grade pieces and then they get bored and stagnant they've only got themselves to blame

When I decided to come back to flute playing, I deliberately didn't "learn" anything as I knew I would have about 10 million bad habits, whether from previous laziness/lessons (i.e. non instrument specialist/3 pieces per grade, start new grade more or less straight after exam!). Learning pieces before getting guidance on what to do would have been counter productive - so I went along with my case full of music, and the last couple of exam mark sheets for information on where I had been. The idea of Grade 8 by 2012/13 or whenever the syllabus end is, is purely as a direction, as I tend to need an aim.

If I can sort out my life in general I'd like to aim for Grade 8 by next summer, partly to prove to myself and others that I have completely recovered from a wrist injury but mostly for the sake of "finishing" what I started at school. Might well consider a Dip a long way in the future, but would like to just learn to play more repertoire and try and find orchestras, groups etc. I will also learn and play the Poulenc competently if it kills me, I am not leaving that hanging over me!

Question: Is the Plonk really worth all the exasperation it seems to cause...?



(Guess who also has many 'fond'memories of the tarnated thing?)