I'm getting very frustrated with my inabliity to play in front of my teacher! I've spent all the summer holidays working really hard on relaxing my jaw (rather than gritting my teeth) and playing with a much freer bow, and yesterday it seemed to all come together - my jaw was much looser and the piece i played, whilst not perfect, flowed along really well with a much freer bow.

I went to my lesson and just tensed up again - almost the first thing my teacher said was about relaxing my jaw and almost all the lesson was about trying to play with a freer bow - I felt like screaming - 'but i do that at home'! I seem to play less well than i do at home at every lesson, but today seemed extra bad and I was close to tears by the time I made it to the car (good job it was only a 1/2 hour lesson!)

Any suggestions as to how to overcome this - some weeks I practise so hard only for everything to fall apart in the lesson and it's getting to the point where I just expect it to happen.

I'm going to give up on the pieces I've practised all the holidays and choose myself something new to work on before my next lesson in a week and a half - I can't face mucking up the same piece all over again!

Have you had a talk to your teacher about it, 2childmum? And is your teacher supportive when it happens? It must be very frustrating for you, and possibly also frustrating for your teacher if s/he doesn't feel as if they can do anything to help you.

Do you play much in front of other people generally - would it help to play in front of friends and family more?

This might sound a bit drastic, but if it's spoiling your enjoyment and progress, would you think about hypnotherapy? I haven't had hypnotherapy for this type of problem myself (I've only had it for dental treatment), but I know of people who have had very good results from hypnotheraphy.

Can't offer much else other than sympathy and a , I'm afraid, and I hope you get some better suggestions.

If tension in your jaw is really a problem how about chewing some gum as you play? This will seem a trivial suggestion but it works.

Theo

Though the feeling of discouragement is sometimes overwhelming (see my thread about this topic under "Viva piano"), things are never quite so bad as we see them. I believe there is a reasonable dose of depression in this negative view of things and while the teacher might have been trying to correct a bad habit so it doesn't become ingrained, you probably had the feeling you'll never make it and that if by training hard so many weeks this is all you get ... then what's the point! In truth, the training you did was probably productive but it didn't show on that particular occasion - very particular I'd say, with somebody obvserving what you do through a magnifying glass and assessing all you do. The situation in a class is quite stress-inducing and we know emotion plays a role in performing. Next time you practise (perhaps going back to the same pieces after a week or so) try imaging vividly that your teacher is there with you. Maybe the 'shock' of actually playing in front of him/her next time will be less strong and destabilising.

Not such a trivial suggestion - singers "chew and hum" (but without the gum!) to help relax the jaw.

I had an adult pupil yesterday with the same sort of problem (on piano), and he too was very frustrated, understandably. I consider there are levels of learning - the first level you reach is being able to play a piece well on your own. The second level is playing the piece well to your teacher. The third level is playing well under the stress of playing to an audience. The way to move between each level is partly excellent knowledge of the piece, and partly your mental attitude. The problem with the mental attitude is the ability to 'switch off' from the awareness that someone is listening closely to your playing and that you are desperate to display your hard work. NOT easy. My piano teacher at uni helped me by suggesting that I displace the anxiety of my playing onto the composer! I am showing off the PIECE and not my playing. Sometimes this works for me! It doesn't work for everyone, tho.

As for chewing gum, I play/teach violin too, and I could not possibly play whilst chewing gum! Tension is a real problem in violin playing as it's physically a very stressful (in terms of posture) thing to do - holding a wooden box on one shoulder between shoulder and jaw, and sawing away with the other arm with a perfectly balanced stick! There is no quick fix to this, and all hard work at home can vanish when playing in front of anyone. Playing in front of people should help, and eventually you should begin to relax more. I hope your teacher is nice and sympathetic! Consider playing in front of people your practice too.

Don't lose heart! It's all part of the learning curve, unfortunately. As already suggested hypnotherapy might help and possibly CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) where you can try to 'reprogramme' your thoughts away from the negative fear and towards more positive thoughts. There are loads of books about CBT (and they're cheaper than hypnotherapy sessions!)

Good luck, and don't give up! Keep playing your pieces! XX

Hi
I so agree with Marianne, you sound COMPLETELY normal to me, I have experienced everything you mentioned and can truthfully say it will lessen as you progress and gain confidence.
Try playing pieces from earlier in your learning path perhaps shortly before your lesson, remember how hard they were once and how relaxing they are to play now...hold that thought..take a deep breath...drop your shoulders and stop thinking about mucking it up just concentrate on the page and the next note and imagine it is all good and eventually it will be so.
Playing the violin takes a long time to get right , even for the master players - who incidentally all say they have to practise, practise, practise, you are totally on the same journey all string players take and it will pass and the tension will go if you allow it to, as others have said there are many techniques for this, but a basic easy one is taking a long deep breath before you lift the bow, let the breath out slowly and as you do let your shoulders drop, in turn will help relax your jaw .
I wish you well and please do remember to enjoy it, let us know how the next lesson goes

Hi 2childmum, have you been playing long in front of your teacher? I just remember that when I first started having piano lessons that I used to be so nervous playing in front of my teacher. I used to joke in front of her and tell myself off and say "don't be daft it is only (teachers name) and we both laughed, but hey, it didn't make any difference.

I don't actually know when it went away I just know that I am no longer nervous in front of my teacher at all, the problems occur sometimes when I am pleased with something that I have done and try and show off - then I go wrong! I then turn to her and say, "that will teach me for trying to show off"

I think if you talk to many of the forum members that there is a huge volume of us that have been nervous at some point in playing to our teachers.

Just stick with it and I am sure that as you get to know your teacher more, you will become more relaxed.

Just one more point, does your teacher praise you when you do something well? It could be if you feel so much under pressure to do everything right that is making you more nervous. At the end of the day I don't think any of us play as well in front of anyone as we do at home when we are just playing to ourselves.

Hope that you manage to sort things out, and like Skylark says, maybe have a little chat with your teacher and let her/him know how you are feeling. It might be as well to have a little chat before each lesson to help relax you.

ET

Like eldatom, I can't remember how long it was for my nerves to settle down in front of my teacher. Even though I no longer have shaking hands at the keyboard, my performance iin lessons rarely lives up to my expectations.

Straight after my diploma exam I got down to tackling a new programme and had this vision of stunning my teacher with a flawless performance of a Bach prelude that I thought I'd absolutely nailed. Of course what transpired was far from this, with slips that I had never made when playing to myself.

However, knowing that I have practised, that I will have made progress with my pieces even though I might not feel that it has necessarily come across, is sufficient to qualify for another lesson and enable me to move forward.

When things have fallen apart in a lesson, my teacher has commented that the practice I claimed to have done has been evident, because notes and fingering have been more secure. So sometimes we are not necessarily privvy to the improvements that have been made.

I think you are quite normal, too!

When I took up the flute at age 67, at my first lesson I talked quite a bit with my new teacher (whom I had never bet before) and suddenly she said "OK, enough talking, play me something". I blushed deep purple at the thought and started a mammoth trembling session. But reality grasped me as I thought to myself " The one person in the whole world who I have to play to is my teacher." I could play all I wanted to while alone, I could avoid exams, but lessons would be worthless without my teacher hearing me. I have conquered it and now really enjoy playing for Anna, even if I do make mistakes. After all, she is being paid to correct them!

The second thing is to follow Skylark's advice - do go to a Forum event. Everyone is so supportive here when they listen to you.

2Childmum,

I too have experienced the dreaded fluffing it infront of teacher syndrome. (I'm sure pretty much any learner has). So a couple of things I've found helpful at various times.

After a particularly bad lesson - me in tears vowing to take up the triangle - I spoke to my teacher the next day and asked him about the lesson - saying I thought I'd played badly. He pointed out the things I'd done well. In the lesson I'd only focussed on the bad things. I'm lucky as my teacher realises my insecurity and is happy for me to call for a quick chat. Or maybe your teacher could send a quick email - it would work as well, if not better as it's permanent. I guess it's the "modern" version of a practice diary where teacher can record improvements and indicate what needs practice. I keep a practice journal and find it helpful after a bad lesson to look back to my earlier entries.

I sometimes hum the piece, quietly as I play. Just having that focus on my jaw helps me notice tension and relax more.

I tend to lean forward onto one foot, which can create tension. So before I start I make sure my feet are shoulder width and I bend my knees and straighten to unlock them. Having that sense of the (solid) ground beneath helps me to be more fluid above the waist.

It sounds daft, but I also tell myself the piece is easy, that I know how to play it. Must be some sub-conscious thing going on, but it can help.

I hope you find some of that useful. Of course different appraches work for different people, but I've found reading the advice on these pages and trying stuff out has been helpful, as has just getting some feedback that I'm not alone in my struggles. So take heart and as the other posters say - it will get better.

Good luck!

2childmum, you sound just like I used to be (and still can sometimes be). I haven't had my first lesson this term yet but last year I was really pleased about lessons starting again and then when I got to my lesson my legs were shaking so much I could hardly play. My teacher commented on my "wobbly sound" and I said it was because my legs were shaking so much I could barely stand up. His reaction was to look slightly bemused and to say "After all these years and you still think of me as an impressive figure." Oddly enough, acknowledging that my legs were shaking was enough for them to more or less stop shaking. I have read (and it does seem to be true) that you need to acknowledge your body's reaction and to accept it, if you try to pretend it's not happening, you just make things worse.

I also think (and this is easier said than done) that you need to be able to take the pressure off yourself. I always play worst when I have practised a lot because I put myself under pressure to show my teacher what I can do. My most relaxed playing is always when I've done very little practice. Ironically a couple of years ago I was away all summer without my oboe and when lessons started again my teacher said I must have worked really hard over the summer because my tone was so much better. Like Clavicembalo's teacher mine can also tell when I've practised and will point out differences with the previous week, even when my playing has totally fallen aprt in the lesson.

Things that I found helped in the past were my teacher always allowing me two goes at playing what I was supposed to have worked on before he made any comments. Most of the time, I could get a lot of the nerves out of my system during the first playing. If I got really tense in the middle of a lesson, my teacher would quite often turn his attention away from me for a few minutes by getting out a reed to scrape or "remembering" he had something he had forgotten to write in his diary etc. I would carry on playing while he did this but because I no longer felt that I was the sole focus of his attention, it was often enough to calm me down a little.

I also found it helped when I finally told my teacher that I felt nervous playing in front of him, rather than trying to pretend it wasn't happening. I felt embarrassed saying he made me nervous because he is such a nice man but it made things much easier. He was, of course, aware that I was tense and nervous but didn't want to make a big deal of it in case it made me feel embarrassed and even more tense. Once it was out in the open, we could talk about ways of dealing with it.

In the end, however, I was one of the ones who resorted to hypnotherapy. I didn't tell my teacher, had only one session and the difference has been huge (and noticeable both to myself and to to my teacher).

That tactic makes me worse.
I can now play if my teacher goes out of the room suggesting I just have a go at something while she is doing whatever it is she went to do but I used to just freeze when that happened.

I totally agree with Marianne - particularly in her assessment of the learning process above.

I do find that this anxiety in front of the teacher almost exclusively affects my adult pupils. They are very self-conscious and demanding of themselves. The kids will come in and play without seeming to have any qualms at all, and I never remember having any nerves in front of my teacher, even as a teenager.

Edit - forgot to add, that if pupils seem affected by these nerves I remind them that the lessons are a journey we go on together, and that I am not standing above criticising, but am on their side, wanting them to do well and helping them to progress. I have to admit it doesn't seem to have helped my pupils! but it might help to take the pressure off you 2childmum - if you can view your teacher as a partner in the process rather than an authority figure.

Absolutely agree - my teacher has become a good friend and even came with her family to my birthday party this year.

I agree with everything, except that this anxiety seems to affect almost exclusivelyy us, adults. I can see different pupils of my teacher's (9-year-olds, 11-year-olds, etc) who keep making slips through the tension involved in playing for others. A very young pupli has recently failed his entrance exam at the Conservatoire because he simply made too many mistakes which my teacher says he'd never made.
I am past the stage when one is nervous in front of one's teacher, but I used to get very tense when playing during the class. I have changed teacher and I partly believe this depends on the degree of friendliness that the teacher can show, genuine friendliness and sympathy, I mean, not the occasional veneer of kindness one can put on by showing an artificial smile or simply sweet manners.

Thank you all so much for your suggestions and sympathy - I was pleasantly surprised when I came on-line tonight and found so many helpful replies!

I do get on really well with my teacher - she makes me a cup of tea and we have a chat about our children or whatever before the lesson begins. I've been having lessons since January 09, so have been playing to her for a little while now. She does tend to launch in with a list of things that need looking at - although I think maybe I have caused this because she knows that I am very keen to get things like intonation spot on so it may come across (or did in the past) that that is what I want her to do. She usually mentions something in the lesson which has improved, but it is very much in passing and I tend to remember all the negative stuff. I would feel a bit daft asking her for more praise! - but I do feel like that is what I need.

I don't often play in front of people and actually I think I've lost a lot of confidence about playing in front of her since her concert I played in a couple of months ago. I had said I wouldn't play as I had been spending a lot of time choosing a new viola and they had been different sizes so my intonation was rather dodgy. I then played at the forum houseparty, and although it wasn't fantastic I was fairly pleased with it and so decided to play the same piece at my teacher's concert a couple of weeks later, thinking that it would be easier and I would probably improve second time round. Wrong! I was so tense I could barely play at all - and it was a piece I loved and really wanted to share with people. I think the problem was the occasion - much more of a formal concert, plus my teacher's husband, who teaches my daughter, was there and almost everyone else playing were teenagers substantially better than me, so I just felt like a bumbling ancient idiot. I have said in no uncertain terms that I am not repeating the experience. Since then I seem to have lost the ability to play in front of her at all!

Interestingly though I have played with other people since then without all this terror! I played string quartets with a group of people when I had only met one of them briefly and managed that fine - I really enjoyed it in fact. I played at church, which should have been stressful as I was trying to read the alto part of 4 part stuff, which is in the treble cleff, or trying to make something up based on the chord sequences of more modern stuff, and again it was fine - no shaking or anything. I also went to an orchestra for the first time on Wednesday, and whilst I couldn't play huge chunks of it, it wasn't because I was too tense, it was just much too hard - again I enjoyed that.

I started working on 2 new pieces today - one up in 4th position, which sounds dire at the moment, but I do wonder why I am bothering sometimes! I do rather wonder why I care about this viola playing thing so much........

Interesting question and consideration. Just this thought prompted me to launch a new thread under Viva Piano (i.e. "Psychological aspects of playing ... ").
I believe we care about playing our instruments (simply play them or play them well, most often the latter!) because we like doing what we're doing and also because there are sometimes more obscure factors involved which we don't have a clear picture of, namely, as was suggested to me by Chopinzee in that thread: narcissism, and a number of related issues, need for approval (that of others AND of ourselves), need to be loved and appreciated and maybe admired or praised and so on. If this were not true how could we account for the great frustration caused by not playing up to all we practice in front of our teachers, getting a Pass in an exam when we had studied for a Distinction etc etc. Maybe it all comes down to this or, to be less categoric, part of the emotions involved have a lot to do with this.

2childmum, I have just remembered something else my teacher said to me which is really obvious but I think we tend to forget. We are going to have lessons because we can't play perfectly. If we could play everything perfectly our teachers would no longer have a job.

As for playing in public as the only adult with lots of children, I know exactly how you feel. When I first started the oboe, I said I wouldn't play in public unless my teacher announced that I had only been learning for X months. I no longer explicitly ask him to, but he still introduces me as someone who started playing the oboe as an adult (although he no longer says how long I've been learning for). Last year I was very touched when at the end of the concert he said that of course all his pupils had worked hard and played well but he particularly wanted to thank his adult pupil for agreeing to play because it required a lot of courage for an adult to play in public.

He has also pointed out to me that if I never play in these concerts then other adults will never know that it is possible to take up an instrument and I will always be the only adult playing in them.

Well said.

I think for me a large part of it is that it's part of who/what I am.

Your reaction sounds perfectly normal to me. I've never been to a music lesson without a tightening of the stomach muscles and shortness of breath, and I've never played in front of my teacher the way I occasionally do at home. So what? It's perfectly natural: you've someone beside you watching your every move and waiting to "pounce"*, you're bound to be on edge.

On the up side, I'd be willing to bet you are improving each time in this somewhat difficult situation, even if it's not evident to you (you might ask your teacher to confirm that – we all need a bit of encouragement). So just remember, if you can play at all under this kind of stress*, just think how much better you'll be when it's gone. And also bear in mind that if you're there, it's because you've chosen to do this.

I'm a relative beginner to music, but I've done lots of other (more physical) activities in the past. I did aikido three or four times a week for 15 years and I don't think I ever went feeling fully "relaxed", but I came to realise that, for me, the tension was part of the learning and developing process. I think some of us are just built that way. I dealt with it in the end by analysing the physical aspects (tight stomach, dry mouth, slight shortness of breath, etc.) and then just said "so what" and got on with it… You could probably play the violin with a slight cold… so maybe a tight jaw isn't that much worse. I'm willing to bet that if you accept the condition as just being there then someday (in the not too distant future) you'll come out of a lesson and realise that you've been so engrossed in what you're doing that you weren't aware of it for at least ten minutes out of the thirty, then fifteen minutes, etc.....

* In defence of my teacher, she is a very sweet natured lady who never "pounces" on my mistakes or creates "stress", that's just my distorted perception during the lessons.

I'm still nervous in lessons. My teacher is now one of my best friends - I go round several times a week to watch movies and socialise, chat all the time on the phone...but when it comes to lessons I still occasionally fall to pieces.

The things I have nailed in practice and am confident about I inevitably get wrong in the lesson. Made worse because my teacher tells me the week before to work on them then has to say it again. No matter how much I say I have tried and tried and done well at home, I still feel bad. I'm sure he believes me and understands but it still bugs me!

I spend a few minutes before the lesson warming up on the piano with scales I find easy and some Hanon, just to prove to myself I CAN do something that has been asked of me in front of my teacher lol

I still get nervous in lessons to. The nerves bring on the mistakes and the mistakes bring on more mistakes. Then when I've completely messed up the same easy things a couple of times I get upset and little tears start to form in the sides of my eyes and its a huge effort not to cry because I don't want my teacher to see how upset I am and I don't want him to be feeling "Oh no, now I've made her cry how wicked I must be..."

I think all my emotions (good and bad ) are much closer to the surface in lessons when I'm doing something that is so very important to me and that I so desperately want to be able to do well.

I don't know what the answer is (Ive been like this for many years) but I just try and think "Im doing my best and I'm paying you to listen to this rubbish so you just sit there and use your proffessional opinion to help me please".

A few minutes later we will both be laughing uproariously.

Sorry, that's no help but you are not alone.

It is good to know I'm not alone in all this.

Thinking about it I think there is some pysychological something or other going on. I would have loved to have done a music degree but for various reasons ended up doing education. I studied what was called 'subsidiary music' during my first year at uni, which was run by the music department, where all those of us doing this course (alongside 1st year music students) where repeatedly made to feel that we were not 'real'musicians. What ever we did in harmony classes was covered in red ink (even the time I copied the chords from the original I had happened to find!) and we were always picked on in the lectures - one of the professors used to go on about people who were not real musicians whilst looking at us all huddled in the back row feeling scared stiff - and then we were all given 3rds for the course and therefore were not allowed to carry on with music - I never did find anyone who went on to the 2nd or 3rd year course - I suspect it didn't even exist! When I left uni I basically gave up music, apart from playing the piano at church for a bit.

Fast forward 20 something years and my daughter started violin lessons. I sat in on the lessons and was inspired to drag out my viola and have lessons with his wife. The thing is - he treats me as if I am a fellow musician - a 'real' one!. I think I probably fall apart in my lessons because I am so desperate to prove him right (even though he is rarely there!)

The thing is - I'm not sure what to do about it!

I am in my forties and have been learning the violin for about 2 years. I also get very nervous in lessons. My teacher said in my first lesson that all adults get nervous so that is quite normal.

One thing I discovered by recording what I play (even though the quality of recording is quite bad) is that if I try hard and mess some of the notes up, it still sounds better than if I play tentatively and concentrate on getting all the notes right.

I got upset after one lesson when I went knowing I could play several pieces well enough to get them passed and didn't succeed with any of them and went away knowing I would have to do them all again because adults get bored much more quickly with the same pieces than children. I didn't want that to happen again as I felt it was a waste of a lesson and I got cross with myself so I now go with a different attitude - to make sure I enjoy the lesson, so I go and just try really hard. If I don't get anything passed at least I have tried my best and have no reason to beat myself up. Some parts go right and some go wrong inevitably but also, if it is a piece I have had for a while or find boring I tell my teacher and she will cross off the parts that go right so I have less to concentrate on for next time and get something else new to do as well which keeps up the interest.

The only reason I have the lessons is because I love learning the violin and would hate to be one of those people who say they wish they had done it but didn't and then regretted it.

I don't know if any of these ramblings will help but wish you all the best.

Just a quick additional comment: I think sometimes we can be a lot harder on ourselves (and a lot less objective) as regards assessing our playing than the person who is listening to us. I was struck by this at my piano lesson last week, when I was really stressing over some bits of my 'easy' Debussy piece which I still feel like I am having to sightread every time. My teacher commented that although he was aware (because he knows me! ) that I was probably stressing over it, to him as a listener, that didn't come through, and the errors which I made didn't counteract his enjoyment in listening to the piece.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that because we know how we want the piece to sound, we may sometimes forget that the audience doesn't have that same "perfect" soundtrack running in their head to measure our performance against, and will instead take it at face value...

I have recently had to stop an adult student from chewing gum in lessons - she was having terrible trouble keeping a steady beat, and it took me quite a while to realise that the chewing was completely out of synch with what her hands were doing - I've really no idea how she managed it (I think I would automatically chew in time) but it was really counter-productive. Her playing improved immediately when we got rid of it.

You weren't tackling Percy Grainger's Gum-sucker's March from his suite In a Nutshell, by any chance?

You can say that again! And this is even worse in us, adults, most of whom have listened to lots of music in their lives and so have lots of good models to try to emulate.
I sometimes find myself exclaiming "Disastrous!" or "I know the quavers should have been neater" etc before my teacher says anything, which shows I'm almost constantly in the position of a judge rather than in that of a student. Moreover, I teach languages, so I'm really used to assessing. How can I put that aside and 'enjoy' being assessed by others?

I had similar issues when learning violin, and think I would feel the same now if I still had lessons. I do in my singing lessons too - even though my coach is wonderful and supportive, I'm the one saying "That was rubbish!" and he is there disputing that - it may not have been perfect but what came out was not bad either.

I know where you are coming from with playing in groups and being OK - quartet, orchestra etc. I do that without a qualm. Put me solo classical and I shake. Big time. And yet solo folk, no problem. I'm working on it, and it takes alot of guts to do it - I am playing Pachabel's Canon this weekend at a wedding unaccompanied, being paid, and so I HAVE to do it. Praying it works and that I don't fall apart. I don't have time in my life for stage fright anymore (do I sound convinced???)

Interesting.......

I have the OPPOSITE with my double bass teacher

yes, you heard right! With my double bass teacher I play MUCH BETTER in front of her than when I am home! I always have done!

with my violin teacher I am like all of you: I make mistakes! worse still I get 'FISH MEMORY!' ie: I forget silly little things and my brain becomes MUSH! I forget my arpeggios and things I have known for a long time, he tells me to do something REALLY SIMPLE and I stand there like a lemon and it just DOES NOT compute in my brain and he (my teacher) almost blows a fuse!!

I don't know why this is, but I tell you the main differences between the 2 teachers:

double bass teacher is a chatter box lady always cheerful and always praises, never says anything negative, of course I do get things wrong sometimes but she has such a nice way of letting you know it still comes across nice....she sould say something like: that was really good, what an improvement, now, let's replay bars 19 to 25, there was a little slip in intonation, watch it when you go back up from 5th to 3rd position that you really pull back your fingers, ok let's go (she would play along with the piano), then she might say: let's try to make it sound even better now by starting it piano this time and then add some pressure and speed with the bowing and making it forte then fortissimo and really pull off the vibrato on that A (and so on)

violin teacher: not really chatty, he will chat 30 seconds here and there, or says an odd joke or quick quote, very serious on technique, if you play a note wrong he will stop you there and then and make you replay it there and then, he will go 'no no no no fix it fix it' or 'why do you do that', you try and tell him why you do something or why you find something difficult but he seems to have a very 'straight' way of thinking, to him things are very 'clear cut' he does not seem to see the 'shades' in between. BUT he is such a wealth of experience/knowledge and he is such a nice person to be with and he really does always have the right answer on how to help a person progress well on the violin, he can 'cure your play/technique', with him you KNOW you WILL become a good violinist if you do what he tells you to do but on the emotional side he finds it more difficult to support you...

2childmum, you are in London, whereabouts?

I am in South Croydon, if we are not too far apart we could meet sometimes then you can play with me that might help you in playing in front of others a bit more? I can come and see you, you can teach me viola? or we can play violin/viola duets?

Jojo, I wonder if the difference in the way you play in your lessons is due not only to the difference in your teachers' personalities but also to do with your own attitude to the two instruments.

With the double bass, you are not putting yourself under any pressure to play well - you said you don't practise it at home, so you don't feel you have to "show" your teacher what you ""can do. Whereas with the violin you have worked and want your teacher to "notice" that you have worked.

One of the things that lots of books about how to cope with nerves say is that you if "allow" yourself to make mistakes you very often won't make them. Several times I have gone to a lesson saying I've spent all week practising X and I just can't get it right. My teacher asks me to play X so he can see what exactly is causing the problem and I promptly play it perfectly Also as I have already said, I'm always far more relaxed about my playing on the rare occasions when I haven't had time to do any practise. That said, it is of course very hard not to "care" about how you play.

Another thing I have just thought of is that our own expectations of what we "should" have achieved from one lesson to the next are often rather different to our teachers'. I remember coming to one lesson having been given a new piece the week before and saying very apologetically to my teacher "I don't think I can play this to you as it's still really awful despite lots of practise." He actually burst out laughing and said "You didn't really think I was expecting it to be perfect in just one week, did you?"

Kerioboe, many good points in your post there

you may be very right in what you say about one's attitude to the instrument and my example in which I 'don't care' (you know what I mean) about the bass but have it to heart about doing really well on violin, very interesting and yes that may well be the answer and indeed often one has to look into themselves first than into others, thank you for making me look at that interesing stuff! I'm going to try some psychology now and try to de-sensitise myself from the violin, try to develop some 'I don't care' attitude towards it and see if it helps a bit

As for what our teacher's expectations are:
I started Schindler's list with my teacher last saturday, the lesson ended and he said:
this is really easy, far easier than Meditation we did a couple of months ago.....I want it all done and ready for next week (he was serious by the way as he knew I made a start on it in the summer break... )

Having just come back from my own very enjoyable first lesson, I have just re-read your first post and I think some of the things that the hypnotherapist said to me might help you.


What the hypnotherapist asked me (when I said much the same thing) was "Why does it matter to you if your playing falls apart?" (Note she didn't say it doesn't matter, or it's not serious, she recognised it was a problem but was trying to understand why). I found this very hard to answer and she started by asking if it was a problem for my teacher (ie did he lose his temper, threaten to stop lessons etc.) and then, since the answer to that was no, the discussion turned on why it was a problem for me.

She also asked me what the worst possible consequences of playing badly were (again not to dismiss them as being "trivial" but with the aim of confronting something concrete rather than a nebulous fear). Again, I found it very hard to come up with anything precise.

In the end there seemed to be three issues which needed to be adressed. 1) She saw this sort of reaction as reverting to childhood (you want a "grown-up's" approval for what you are doing) and you need to take charge of things as an adult. 2) A problem of perfectionism; you have to accept that you are in a learning process and that mistakes are part of how you learn. 3) A lack of self-confidence and self-belief. I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to put this into words convincingly; it's the idea that your teacher accepted you for lessons as what you are, s/he never imagined you were a prodigy and is happy to teach you as you are, you should therefore stop worrying that you are not "good enough" and just be yourself.

In my lesson this morning, I wanted to start by telling my teacher all the things I thought needed working on in the piece I've been learning over the summer but he said he'd rather I played it so he could hear the good bits as well and settled down in a chair to listen. I did momentarily think "what good bits?" and was also alarmed that by the way he was sitting he looked as though he was expecting to enjoy it and I didn't think it was up to much. Then I reminded myself of the hypnotherapist saying "I was me" and he had asked to hear "me", not his favourite CD and just played. When I'd finished, the first thing he said was that my posture had improved greatly and I was standing up straight and looking as though I wanted to share the music instead of trying to keep it all to myself. So don't despair, it is possible to change yourself. (If you read this old post of mine you will see that I was just as bad as you :
[URL] http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showt...2&hl=myself [/URL])



Nothing to do with the hypnotherapist but I think I would carry on with the same piece, on the basis that I couldn't play it any worse than I did the previous time whereas if I took along a new piece, I would want to play it well (to make up for the previous lesson) and would again be putting myself under stress.

What a marvellous post, kerioboe. I am going to print it off and keep it for the next time something like this problem happens for me. Thank you so much for posting.

That's exactly what I've done and I find the content really inspiring and helpful as long as we can really repeat these things convincingly to ourselves. Thank you, kerioboe!

Me too. Really excellent - thank you for posting!!

Your posts are full of good advice, clever comments and very encouraging remarks.
I wonder if ... erm ... you have other tips you'd like to share with us?

There are many wise words here - which I shall try hard to take on board.

Jojo - I'm in SE London, so not a million miles away, but not exactly round the corner either! I discovered recently that my daughter's violin teacher runs a group where he invites his adult/more advanced students to play to each other and comment on each others playing. I'm not sure how frequently he runs it, but the players I met who go seemed to know each other pretty well. Maybe a group like that, where we are not performing to each other but can share our pieces at whatever level they happen to be at, would be a good idea - probably really scary to begin with but over time I could see it would be really useful as everyone began to trust one another. Finding a time could be tricky, however, as we are all so busy!

I've been working on 2 new pieces - one lively less difficult one which I'm not over-bothered about getting perfect, but which I'm playing for fun - it will be interesting to see how I play that to my teacher. Maybe not caring about it so much will help me play it better! The other piece is much harder, and uses some of the same techniques as the piece with fell apart in my last lesseon (which I would love to play well). It's a long way off of ready at the moment, and I'm going to ask my teacher if we can look at it a bit at a time - when I play something all the way through before we discuss it, and it goes wrong, it tends to get worse and worse as I become more and more despondent. I'm going to see if tackling it in bits helps. Also knowing it's far from where it should be may help.

I was going to ignore the piece which collapsed, but took on board the comment about keeping going as it can only get better(can't remember who said that - sorry) and so I've been playing it through most days without actually working on it to try and relax about it a bit.

I've got a lesson on Wednesday, and no time to practise tomorrow, so we shall see how it goes! I might crack open the rescue remedy before my lesson too!

Wish me luck!

(Hope I'm not too late )
And let us know how it went.

Well I'm happy to say this morning's lesson was a whole lot better, despite feeling even more nervous before I went. I think the following helped -

1. A real effort to listen out for and take on board the good comments as well as the things which needed work
2. Having a 'fun' piece which I wasn't too bothered about, and which was a bit easier than some of the things I have been looking at - I played it more confidently - there are things to work on, but not too much!
3. Approaching my new, more difficult piece in bits, with a sense of consulting my teacher about how to play it rather than trying to play it well and failing!
4. Playing through the piece from my last lesson each day without working on it, and then playing it to my teacher trying to remember how beautiful it is rather than trying to play it well - that worked in bits - each time I felt myself tense up I thought 'make it beautiful' and that seemed to make me relax (until another tricky bit a few bars later!). I'm putting it on hold for a bit, but may bring it out again towards the end of the year with the aim of playing it at Teddington next year (if I can find an accompanist)
5 The rescue remedy pastille in the car before hand may have helped - who knows?

Thank you to all those who have been so supportive - I am feeling so much happier now!

That's good news

I'm glad you had a better lesson
Hopefully this will help you to break out of the viscious circle of nerves leading to playing badly leading to more nerves leading to worse playing ...

And one last thought.
My teacher organised a Master class last year. At the end I had a long discussion with the oboist running it which he started by saying he was in admiration of what I had achieved on the oboe. He said it took a great deal of courage as an adult to take up a new instrument and to perserve with it. For him the most important quality an adult learner could have was patience - the patience to put in the hours and hours of work that are needed to improve when you are only too well aware of the gulf between the way you sound and how you would like to sound.

Don't panic! Give it time. Honestly, this happened to me a lot, and still does from time to time, and my teacher tells me it's very common to do better at home than in a lesson, where time is pressing, and there might be any number of issues you would like to be discussing, as well as playing. This is all just a sign of how much the instrument means to you. You will be fine.