Hi all, I hope you can help...

My son is 18 and interested in playing the violin. He has 'issues' and so won't be persuaded to go to a shop to talk to the staff or try some out, and will be teaching himself However, it's quite possible that he'll decide very early on that the violin isn't for him, so doesn't want to spend any more than necessary to get a feel for whether he'll enjoy it or not. If he does, he may well go for an electric violin.

He plays the piano and although he didn't get on with formal lessons, struggling with theory and set pieces, once he's found a piece of music he likes he will work at it and can play up to Grade 5 with enough feeling to make one weep - he has always had a beautiful touch.

So what we need is a violin that's just good enough for him to learn to play a few notes without falling to pieces, and without sounding so dreadful it will put him off completely, but it would seem a bad idea to spend, say, a couple of hundred pounds for something he hasn't even heard when he may decide the violin isn't for him after all. Therefore we're looking at the really cheap, £40-£100 end of the scale. Will this be OK for an absolute beginner to dip his toes in, or will it be next to useless? And could anyone recommend a really cheap violin that won't fall to pieces at the first touch of a bow or sound absolutely dreadful? This site http://www.gear4music.com/String_Instruments/Violins.html has starter violins at around ?40, ?60 and ?100, but I've no idea whether the more expensive ones would be significantly better than the cheapest one.

One violin I have my eye on is this one: http://www.aranmore.co.uk/studentstarterviolin.htm I like the fact that it's made by a small, seemingly traditional British company, but can't find any reviews, or much about the company at all, on the internet. Do you think this would be as good a starter violin as any?

Many thanks for any help you can offer

No it isn't.
It'll be made in China.

There are potentially a lot of difficulties with this. I'm not saying it can't be done, and your son is obviously very musical. But a violin is not at all like a piano to teach yourself.

I'll just post my initial thoughts here, and I don't want to put you off as the violin is a lovely thing, but I believe you do need to be aware of a number of things before you spend lots of money.

I would not recommend learning without a teacher, even if it is only for the first few lessons. The way to hold the instrument and the posture needed for the violin really need to be shown and corrected by a professional. Your body is held in an unnatural position and real actual damage can be done if this is not right (eg back. neck shoulder, arm, wrist problems), and the right muscles relaxed and used.

A rank beginner on a violin will sound awful, regardless of the quality of the instrument. It takes a long time and lots of patience to start making a nice tone.

Playing in tune on a violin is difficult at first, as you have to find exactly the right point on the string. Lots of scales and intonation exercises are needed. Not like a piano which is already tuned and you just depress the appropriate key. Your son's already good ear for music should help with this as listening and correcting are important to playing with good intonation.

A cheap violin will be just that, however there are some good Chinese ones about at the moment, but I expect you will have to pay in excess of £100 for something reasonable. Even then you need to consider the quality of the bow, and you may need immediately to put better strings on it. A set of strings is upwards of £30.

Have you thought about renting? There are schemes where you pay a lesser amount over a period of months, and if you want to keep the instrument you can buy it out with a larger payment at the end of the hire period. If you decide after a few months that it is not to be, you can hand it back and not pay anymore - this might suit your needs.

Another thought is to see of there is anyone who will loan him a violin for a while, to see if it is right for him, before you spend lots of money.

Good luck

I agree with the above. Definitely need a teacher for a bit, otherwise if he does decide he wants to keep going he is going to have a LOT of bad habits that will need breaking. I'd say a teacher is vital for strings.

Renting would be your best bet. I have heard some of the cheap violins and trust me, the sound will put him off lol

I totally agree with all the comments made here, the violin is not an instrument for someone who wants to teach themselves, it would be like climbing Everest having done a bit of hill walking in your spare time. In fact I really don't see how you can teach yourself, there is just so much technical stuff compared to piano that it would in fact be making life more difficult for yourself rather than easier, I can totally see how it is appealing to just get on with playing the piano , with feeling, without worrying about using the hands just so but honestly don't think this would work with any string instrument, but would be glad to be proved wrong if there is anyone out there who has done it without any tuition at all.

As you son sounds very musical I wondered if he may be after the sound of the violin rather than the actual playing of it, in which case you may be better to invest in a areally good electric piano/keyboard which has good quality samplings ( and many are not good so it would mean trying them out )

best wishes

Yitamusic T19 or M19.
Lots of background and comments on this forum, you can find it by doing a search.

I would also second the advice about a teacher. For background too I suggest he has a look at Todd Ehle's posts on YouTube.

Thank you all - some great and useful advice there

Knowing him, having a teacher to start off with may be non-negotiable (most things are non-negotiable with him ). It may be he needs to buy what's more or less a bit of firewood with elastic bands around it and makes noises that will make the cat curl up and die, then will be able to make the decision to commit to at least some lessons and get a half-decent violin. Whatever he plays on will sound diabolical for some time, anyway.

Toscaviolin, that's a good point about an electric piano. But he tells me that an electric piano that would rival our piano (a lovely Kemble) and satisfy him would be at least £1000, and it may well be that it's the tactile quality of the violin that attracts him, as well as the sound.

Liz is very good at http://www.elidatrading.com and she is a forumite.

I would also agree that learning the violin without a teacher is not advisable. Its very difficult to learn proper technique, hand position, intonation etc etc unless you've got a real live person observing you and coaching you as appropriate.

I used to play the piano as a child/teenager and got to Gr 6 before I stopped, so I'm in a position to compare learning the 2 instruments. It obviously takes a lot of work and commitment to play any instrument well, but it is much easier as a beginner to get things really wrong on a violin.

It will also take longer for a beginner violinist to start making a decent sound than it will for a beginner pianist, so if your son is thinking that in 6 months time he'll be playing at Gr 5 level without a good teacher, I would think that unrealistic. It will take commitment on his part to achieve a good sound.

As regards the choice of instrument I would suggest it depends on his personality and whether you think he'll be willing to stick it out for long enough to justify the purchase. Last year when I started having violin lessons I bought a £40 violin kit and instead put my money into one-on-one lessons. I wasnt sure if I'd like it and I wasnt able or willing to spend too much to find out. And yes, I agree that the typical £40 instrument is awful....there's no other word for them, but they served a purpose for me.

As it happened, I do enjoy it very much and have since upgraded to an instrument which I love.

Its a catch-22 situation; someone like me might be happy to plug away at a poor instrument until such time as they have the money to upgrade. Someone else might get discouraged trying to learn on a poor instrument and give it up very quickly.

Which is why I said it depends on his personality.

Stentors are good and solid and go for £80ish. Antonio start at £50ish and I'm quite impressed for the money..
However, like the others, I really couldn't think of a worse instrument to attempt without a teacher..

No sure where you are based but if you're in London, I know of a good shop which offers hired violin. Including refundable ?40 deposit, I hired my violin for 3 months for about £75 altogether.

I thought this is the best way, hire one, try and if I don't like it, I can just return it. If I like it, I can then spend more on a better violin.

The shop that I went to offered a beginner's violin, but it was set-up properly (according to my teacher).

I have to agree that it is literally impossible to learn violin without a teacher
Having taught myself other instruments (piano, and some others) i thought violin would be no different
I thought i was doing well, copying every video and book and website i could get my hands on
But when i went for lessons i was doing SOOO much wrong

He may do what i did though - tried teaching myself, really enjoyed it and wanted to get better and realised it's impossible to get past grade 3 sort of level without a teacher.

I carried on with lessons and now violin is my career (and i started at 16 so 18 isnt too old to start lessons either!)

I'd go for maybe a stentor 2 as a first violin, if he likes it then buy some dominant strings for it - it makes the violin sound 110% better, as the strings that come with it are practically barbed wire

We also had a Stentor 2 violin up to grade 5 which was fine and did the job perfectly well. We got ours from Normans for about £70 but they cost a bit more now.

Ok, you could take a tougher stance. You are the parent, he the child. If he wants to start violin, tell him he needs to start with a rented one and have lessons with a teacher for a period of time. If he refuses, fair enough. Doesn't want it enough at this time. Maybe wait til he is a bit older.

He shouldn't start without a teacher. No two ways about it. If he does you will be wasting the money you pay for a cheap violin because it will take him God knows how long to unlearn bad habits.

Can I just add as no one has mentioned this point that I quite like the gears for music violins?? Obviously the more expensive ones are better, and with better strings and proper set up can be really really good value for the money spent, but equally the cheaper ones seem to be perfectly ok and compared to bog standard antonis and stentors I actually prefer them! I don't know what others think, this is obviosuly just my opinion, and it may be that because its a few of my more talented beginners using them they sound better but i do like them...
I have to say that like everyone else has mentioned, he will really really struggle without a teacher, but I have had a few adult pupils (hes 18 you said, yes?) who have taught themselves basic stuff, and although bad habits need to be corrected they have coped well... Especially if they just want to be able to play music they enjoy, you can fix the problems that NEED to be fixed, and over time gradually fix the less important problems... For example I have a 70 odd year old, grade 4/5 ish violinist who had dabbled with the instrument since school, never having had lessons... He had taught himself "vibrato" to an extent... So the first thing I did was fix his position etc to ensure he wouldn't hurt himself playing the instrument, and then gradually worked on various techniques until he is at the point he is now where is is playing in 3rd position, learning 2nd and 4th position, and has totally fixed his vibrato... Its still not perfect, but its a proper vibrato rather than shaking the violin!!! So it is achievable... just a very very difficult and quite often frustrating (and ear splitting!!) process...

aesir, he's 18!!! even I could probably not do that and I am known to be one of the toughest parents in the neighbourhood

What I mean is, if he isn't willing to compromise, he doesn't get the funds for a violin lol

ok I get you:
parent 'ok, so you want to start violin, that's cool'
teenager 'yeah, but I ain't going to no teacher' (joke)
parent 'that's fine, so I take it you'll buy the violin yourself then as I have no money to buy it for you (wink wink)'
teenager 'WHAAAAAAT/??? but you said you would!!!'
parent 'I might make an effort and buy you one with my savings but only if you have a teacher as I really believe you cannot learn properly without one, but if you think you can that's fine, you can buy yourself a violin and do it the way you think it's right'

Perfect!! And not at all scripted We should add 'shocked expression' and 'repremanding shake of head' to the mix, make it a proper play

aesir22, normally I'd be with you 100% of the way, but his 'issues' involve social anxiety, so the idea of playing in front of someone else strikes terror into his heart! The deal is that he will pay the cost of a really basic violin, and I will pay the extra necessary for him to have something worthwhile, so he can get a genuine feel for whether he wants to continue or not. I doubt he'd ever play for anything more than personal pleasure so the odd bad habit isn't a tragedy, though I'm already nagging him about the dangers to his muscles.

We've decided on the £105 student violin from Gear4music, and hope it turns out to be a reasonable compromise. Just maybe, he'll get enough out of it, and gets over his problems, that he decides to take lessons at some point in the future, though I wouldn't count on it.

I can't wait for his brother's reaction - he hasn't a musical bone in his body and complains enough about the piano playing

Thanks everyone for your advice - it really has helped. I may come back in a couple of weeks and tell you how he's getting on (if I haven't left home by then....).

I would recommend then, purchasing some new strings for him. The ones you will get with it are LIKELY to be very poor. I put dominants on my violin, and it completely transformed what it sounded like.

Yes do let us know - and if we can be any more hlep (in the absence of a teacher ) then just ask.

I suffer terribly with anxiety but i love violin so much that i will really push myself, i would play infront of 100000 people if i had to, yet i cant even learn to drive because of one person watching me. Which is something that baffles my doctors
So it may be good for him to push himself He could try trial lessons with different teachers until he finds one he's comfortable with. Me and my violin teacher get on so well, we are really similar and i'm 95% comfortable around her/playing infront of her.

I can understand the anxiety.
But, I wonder whether it would actually be better therefore if he started with someone before he'd had a go himself. That way, from scratch, he'd be doing everything for the first time under guidance, whereas if he'd been teaching himself for a while first, he may be more anxious playing in front of someone as there would be more to 'show', and more that he may feel he is being judged on?

Probably put very badly, hope you understand what I'm mean..sorry not too well today

I hope you feel better soon Miffy I know what you mean... I doubt he'll see it the same way, but it's a good point.

ffliwt, I've been driving for years, but still fall to pieces if I have to drive with hubby in the car He's convinced it's a ploy so that I get to drink. As if

I can relate to this. I have a 22 year old who panics if he has to go to the hairdresser or the doctor and has to be accompanied. If I did not accompany him he would in the first case just let his hair grow to his knees, and in the second probably just let his asthma kill him! This is not like an ordinary person who has "performance anxiety." People should be more understanding.

I personally don't think anyone here has failed to be understanding.....

Let me explain what I meant by that. Columbusrat said that her son, (I am assuming Columbusrat to be female), is not up to/doesn't want to/won't/whatever - have lessons or even to go and try out violins. Since she has known her son for 18 years and we don't know him at all I think she probably knows what she is talking about and understand that those are facts and don't need discussion.

(My sincere apologies to Columbusrat if I appear to be trying to talk for her. To be fair she did not seem to be put out by the advice about lessons, that is just my opinion.)

No one here said we know what is best more than the son's own parent. Christ, we only tried to offer a few suggestions to help out! Excuse us for reading more than just one thing in the original post. I suggest this stop now as it isn't fair to hijack a thread.

Columbusrat (I like that name lol) if you can possibly afford any higher, I could recommend the Hidersine Piacenza, which I have started on. It was less that £200, something like £165? If you don't want to go that high, I'd still recommend some better strings than the ones you are likely to get with the setup. I really can't stress how much they improve the tone of the violin. The dominants I bought cost about £30, and I consider it well well well worth the cost!!

There is a lot of discussion about how far starter instruments get you. I think some can get very far with them, but by the time you get to higher grades I have heard that the instrument won't do the player justice. Thats where better strings and a good bow could help out if you don't want to spend too high for another violin.

I had planned to get to grade 3 with the Piacenza then upgrade, but with the dominant strings and maybe a better bow later, my teacher has said I could go much further with it. But I'll probably still upgrade after grade 4 or 5 or so Saving first for a new piano next August, then the saving starts for a violin

The other benefit of getting better strings is that they wont hurt his fingers as much as the cheap factory strings. I'd forgotten to mention that when I posted earlier; but within 2 weeks of starting on my cheap violin, the strings had blistered my fingers so badly that it made it impossible for me to practice. I too upgraded to Dominants, and my, what an improvement!

Well worth the investment and you can sometimes find them on sale if you shop around online.

or if he lives near me he can come and practice on my double bass then when he goes back to his violin he won't know what sore fingers are anymore

That's what I do sometimes with stretch problems, I go and play around on my viola for a bit, then when I come back to the violin it feels all little and light and easy

Oops.... sorry, I haven't had any new post notifications since my last reply, so I haven't been ignoring you on purpose! No offence taken at all about the suggestions that Joe should have lessons... There's all sorts of things I tell him he should do (get a job, take a course, tidy his room, load the dishwasher, change his clothes more often, get a haircut - Catherine, hair stops growing when it gets to waist level, his hair was last cut about eight years ago!) and he doesn't take any notice. Difficult to know what is due to his 'issues' and what is due to him being a lazy useless teenogre

We bought this one in the end: http://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Brass-S...-Gear4music/5F0 (which was cheaper when we bought it!). Have had a few teething troubles. When Joe tuned it, the E string broke. He tried playing on the remaining three, couldn't get a note... remembered the rosin, put some on, decided it wasn't enough, put some more on.... this time it was too much, and it got everywhere. Then once he finally managed to produce something resembling a note, he noticed a rattling... the sound post had become dislodged

So we returned it (the courier said 'It was that bad, was it?' ), and the replacement came today. But hubby (who's reasonably musical - sax, clarinet & guitar) tried to tune it using an online tuner and then the piano, but every time the E string seems to be just about there, he finds the others have gone flat by about half an octave, presumably because the E string is bending the violin, and is reluctant to keep tuning it higher as the E string seems very tight and we don't want a V shaped violin He's wondering whether there are so many overtones his ears are misleading him and he's trying to tune it an octave too high.

For the time being Joe is going to tune it to what he thinks is an octave low. But it looks like we're definitely going to need to see a 'real' person to help with the tuning, if nothing else!

if you live in or around or not too far the London area I'd be happy to come and tune it and teach you the basics, if your son is too apprehensive in meeting a 'stranger' I can teach you or your husband then you can teach Joe?

I really would not mind at all, I am all for helping anyone who wants to learn the violin

That's a really kind offer, jojo, thank you We're nowhere near, I'm afraid, we're in Poole. He has a friend whose whole family is musical and whose mum is a music teacher so she may know someone who can help - I think someone in the family has an electric violin, don't know if that would be similar enough.

I wish I was musical! I dabbled on the piano for years but never got beyong playing Fur Elise really, really badly. Then a boyfriend taught me some chords on the guitar, I played for ages, taught my replacement boyfriend and he was better than me in a fortnight. I love singing too, but have the vocal abilities of a donkey with laryngitis

aaaaaawwwwww that is such a shame that you're so far away

if you want to give Joe a 'little present' I recommend a site aimed at adult learners called violin lab, it's here: CLICK HERE
for a small subscription fee he can access all tutorials (although many are free so he can start watching some now) and there is the real basic stuff too like holding the violin and tuning etc.... and of course go and watch 'Professor V' on youtube he's also good too.

Thank you - I've sent him the links

Gears4Music have a range of violins for beginners , i have the student 4/4 one and it sounds good so its worth having a look at

I'm so pleased you didn't go for a cheap 40quid violin

I would recommend again to purchase some new strings - not dominants if you are reluctant to shell out the 30quid but you can still get some good ones that aren't so costly. They will ultimately provide a better chance of your son continuing, because there would be nothing more annoying as a beginner than having an instrument you can't get a nice note out of.

Would your son go to a luthier with you? If not, you could go yourself, and buy some strings for the violin and ask the luthier to put them on and show you some basic tuning. Bear in mind the strings will take time to settle and you'll need to retune them very often at first until they sit properly. I would say to make sure he is playing the strings at the right octave, at the right notes, from the very beginning. It'll help develop his ear to the notes on the violin. With him not wanting to see a teacher right away I think its very important you try to get as much right as possible early on. So a correct bow hold (very important) all correct posture, how to bow straight etc etc. Jojo posted a great link for violin lab, and there is Professor V on youtube who is really good and will start things off well for your son.

Would your son join the forum? Talking to people on here, and having the chance to ask any questions, might help make his journey smoother