Hello all,

From experience I know adult students are not as reliable as children, income-wise. They have more commitments, have less time to practice and their work affects them. Knowing all this, I try to be understanding. However, I feel like I'm at the end of my working relationship with one of them and want to know if I'm being reasonable.

This student started learning with me since October last year. To begin with he made very good progress and had natural talent. The good spell continued for about 6 months and then he began to change his lesson times around. This progressed to him coming every 2 or 3 weeks. I started to get annoyed and we had a chat about our lessons. We decided he will do his grade 1 and focus on this as this will give him a goal. He was very excited as he left the lesson. I thought finally he'll put his talent to good use but using work commitments and family matters as an excuse, I didn't see him for a month after that!

We had a lesson today(after a month) and I told him it's difficult for me to teach him without seeing continual progress. He said he's only learning piano as a hobby and he's not sure if he wants to do grade 1 anymore. I've already lost track of payment arrangements with him as I charge by the month and he pays by bank transfer. I said the administration side is also frustrating for me as I can't keep track of his ever changing lesson times. The funny thing is although he cites work as an excuse for many months he was unemployed and at the moment doing part time work. He's not short of money, so money can't be a factor, he kept on stressing he enjoys learning and thinks I'm a good teacher, but is this a good enough reason to keep this student?

Do any of you have adult students who turn up only occasionally and how do you cope with this? I've pretty much told him we'll give it couple more weeks and then I'm done if he continues to mess me around. It's a shame as he is a pleasant person and talented.

I find it difficult (personally) to continue to allot a lesson slot to someone who doesn't make good use of it.

It's worth saying that there are some teachers who don't mind: they stick the unreliable student at the end of their day, or in a less popular slot, and take it as it comes. I'm not one of them! - but I know it works for some.

I had one (a schoolteacher) 2 or 3 years ago who insisted he could only make Saturday mornings - a prime time slot of 45 mins. Not only was attendance hit and miss, we never actually completed any one piece in about two terms. I should point out that he was paying for his slot by the term (or half term), and seemed to think it was ok if his time was paid for. Not so in my book, if I am then keeping others waiting who might like the same time, or worse still, turning them away. I pointed out these things and we gave it one more term in which he claimed it would get better - it didn't, and I declined to continue.

You seem to be moving towards doing something similar, Beagle - isn't he more hassle than it's worth?

It sounds like a lot of hassle. It's a nuisance having to accommodate one person who comes and goes as and when they please. I would suggest bringing the arrangement to an amicable conclusion. If he wishes to continue with his "hobby" then he can find other teachers prepared to take him on those terms.

The other alternative is to say that you would teach him on an ad hoc basis and that he can ring a week or two in advance to book a lesson but that you would be charging a higher rate than you would normally for people who book a series of lessons.

Since quite a high percentage of my students are adults, it's sort of a common occurence, although some are more of a headache than others obviously

I do the following with students like the ones you mentioned:

1. They don't get fixed slots - they can phone me the week before if they feel they want to pop in, and then I see what I can do for them. If there's nothing available that week - bad luck. I cannot hold valuable prime time slots open for people who are unreliable.

2. They have to pay me adhoc on the day, because everything else is just not practicable.

3. They have to pay if they cancel within a certain time-frame. This also applies if they just arranged the lesson one or two days beforehand, since they should really know if they can make it or not by then.

It sort of works that way.

The problem of no or very little progress you mention is of course a different one altogether, but I see it this way these days:
There are people around who really just use their instrument (or even music lesson) to unwind, and it's not for me to judge this. I can deal with it, although I can sort of understand that not every teacher can. It is quite hard for us as professional musicians to accept that music is not equally important to the rest of the world in the same way it is to us, but I think we probably have to adjust to it at the end of the day. I think I've just adjusted to the fact that not everyone puts as much blood, sweat and tears into learning an instrument as we do/did, and that's fine.

I am blessed with my adult students as they generally do not mess me around. I did have to let one go recently, however knowing, from the experience of my inlaws and my father, about the traumas involved in getting an elderly relative into a residential home and then clearing up their house and all the associated mess, she went with my blessing. We are still in contact and she intends to return as soon as her family situation improves.

There are times where you need to be flexible. It generates good will, however do take care to make sure that your adult pupils realise this is your business and do not mentally tattoo the word MUG on your forehead.

Good luck!

I like Dugazon's strategy for dealing with wayward adults, but it only works if you are prepared to make different arrangements for some students. Personally, I prefer to have the same set-up for all mine (payment in advance for the term etc) and I would find the sort of disruption you describe unacceptable. I've had a couple of adults who did this, and neither of them lasted very long.

The problem of no or very little progress you mention is of course a different one altogether, but I see it this way these days:
There are people around who really just use their instrument (or even music lesson) to unwind, and it's not for me to judge this. I can deal with it, although I can sort of understand that not every teacher can.

Yes, I agree with Dugazon here, and I can accept this if the student appears to value their lessons and is otherwise reasonably organised and dependable. I have a couple of adult students who might (at least at times) come into this category - but they turn up and make the most of their booking.

However, put it together with poor attendance / lack of communication, and it seems to present more of a problem - I think.

I've generally found in the past that you have to be quite firm with adults. I appreciate all the very many pressures on their time and money...but, at the end of the day, I'm running a business. I think one has to be quite firm from the start. If on rare occasions I rearrange a lesson for them, I make this clear it's a one off and I certainly don't do it again for a while as they begin to think it becomes a habit! Over the years I've found adults are generally fine, but a small minority think they can take you for a ride!

The reason most of mine are darlings is they all stuck with me when I burnt myself in January. I think the fact they saw me struggle on then and cancel so few lessons made them think.

You have said to him that it's not good for his progression to work this way, and he has told you that's ok as it is his hobby.
Perhaps what you haven't been clear enough about is that it is not YOUR hobby, but your work and that your spaces need to be filled and paid for consistently, therefore if each month is paid in advance, regardless of whether he has used or abused that slot, the next month will be due as usual. You can then work out with him if he wants to pay for fortnightly or weekly lessons.
Ad-hoc can work, if the person is reliable, but you then have the problem of getting him to pay at each lesson, and paying for the ones he cancels or wants to change at short notice.

I think adult pupils quite simply need a different approach, something which works for some teachers and not for others: it helps to set out at the beginning what a teacher's expectations are likely to be, and to have some sort of timeframe in which to review lessons and see if they're working out. As a more advanced player now, I have to rely on my own resources most of the time, and arrange a consultation lesson from time to time, for more experienced advice - of necessity such lessons have to be ad hoc, and are paid for there and then. My teacher has a very busy schedule, but can put aside some time to teach me on an occasional basis, so it works out. Even when I was getting regular tuition though, we organised lessons from session to session, because sometimes I knew I would need more time to process the work I was taking up, sometimes I knew I'd be better with more frequent input to get me through some tricky aspect of what I was doing. I know of no musician who learns at a completely linear rate - most report episodes of more or less rapid progress over time, it's a normal phenomenon, and I don't think you can necessarily complain about slow progress for a while, unless it also seems caught up in apathy or overlaid by frustration.

The other thing to remember is that although it's great for a teacher to have satisfaction in teaching, and that that almost certainly would involve the pupil making progress - it's not the reason a pupil takes up lessons. Those who are able to accept that the agendas are different, and work with them, are likely to find more pleasure in teaching adults whose lives are busy and distracted at times.....and also to give those adults rather more pleasure in learning, from what I've observed.

How did that happen, Jo? I hope you're OK now.

Yes, I agree, and I make a point of doing both the things you describe.

Yes - I hope you are fully recovered.
I agree - we set an example if they see us not letting THEM down. I didn't cancel a single lesson when I had pneumonia, nor when I had shingles. It makes them realise that their excuses are not always reasonable!

Not all adult learners are troublesome! Well, I'd like to think we're not...

My lessons are arranged on an ad-hoc basis - at the end of one lesson, we consult our diaries and set another date. With my current teacher, I don't think I have ever cancelled a lesson. I have, on the odd occasion, turned up completely shattered or not having had time to practise. My teacher understands - it's not the norm.

With a previous teacher - when I had a lot of pressure at work - I occasionally cancelled at very short notice. My teacher was very understanding. I was never charged and we simply set another date.

But I do take my playing seriously and try to work hard. And I'm flexible if my teacher needs to cancel. So maybe that makes the difference.

It is my experience that the majority of people, be they children or adults, do not posess the necessary self discipline to make themselves do regular and constructive practice. Children have the advantage of parents to force them into a routine to see that the practice gets done, or at least to nudge them in the right direction.

The majority of children would do no practice if not enforced by their parents, and adult pupils generally have nobody at home who will make them practise so adults and children are remarkably similar really. So it is usually a lack of self discipline that is common to most people, rather than genuine lack of time, which is the problem when adults don't progress.

Its not possible to generalise in this way. The sheer number of adult students on this forum alone who take their music seriously would suggest that we have sufficient self discipline to do regular constructive practice.

If someone wants to do something badly enough they'll find the time. Yes, we adults have all sorts of additional demands on our time but most of us find a way to work the music and our lessons into our lives.

To the OP: I cannot speak for the issues this particular student is facing, but its possible that he doesn't understand how difficult he's making life for you.

My way round this is to put the adult in the last slot of the evening and make an exception with payment terms, accepting the money by the lesson. It usually suits an older student anyway rather than a younger one to come well into the evening, and if they don't come I just finish earlier. I would never place a new adult pupil in a slot that had somebody on either side of it, because if they turn out not to be dependable I'd end up twiddling my thumbs for half an hour, or else the previous one just overruns. (It's important to be told in advance, though, whether or not they're going to be there!) If they turn out to be dependable with regard to coming every single week and then state a preference for an earlier time, I'll give them one if it comes up. If they're a bit erratic, and I get the chance of another pupil who will not be erratic, I just move the adult's time to half an hour later.

Excellent strategy, and roughly the way I do it.

Someone else mentioned that it only works if you're happy to have different payment terms, which not everyone is prepared to do. I find it easier though to do it this way for a few select people than chasing after monthly or termly payment, because as it happens, if people are a bit erratic and constantly cancel, you usually have to chase after the monthly or termly payments as well (they are NEVER in on payment day for some strange reason, and bank transfers are usually hopeless as well ).
If you are prepared to have a few people pay adhoc, you will find yourself out of pocket for one lesson at the most, while otherwise it will be a bigger chunk of money you are chasing after.
Another option would be to have adhoc people pay one lesson "deposit" at the start, so that if they cancel, the lesson is already paid for. They then need to fill up the deposit again the next time if you had to use it. I don't do it that way, but I know of people who do, and it seems to work.

I also find that you cannot treat adults and children the same way when it comes to lessons and practising. That doesn't mean that you will always like or understand it from your own, musician's point of view, but again: Some people simply want to chill out a bit and enjoy their lessons, They are not too bothered about their progress.
It doesn't mean either that people who come in on an irregular basis are necessarily the ones not willing to put in the work - the more advanced you get, the more you are able to practise on your own, and intervals between lessons can stretch out. In fact, that's one important aspect of teaching as well: Teach the student to become independent!
If it is a beginner with really unstable technique though, I tell them that it won't work that way, and the problem usually solves itself.

The important thing is to get your expectations on level with what they can/want to do. If you find it unbearable to work with people like that, don't. It will only frustrate you. It can work though if you are prepared to make concessions (and I know not everybody can, and that's absolutely fine).

That is rather harsh! Maybe time for a review of your materials and methods if this is a problem for the majority of your students?

Most of my adult students are very well motivated and stick with it for long periods of time making slow but steady progress. Life occasionally gets in the way, but it does for kids too. However making allowances and sticking with someone through a difficult patch and putting up with a total lack of commitment are two different things.

I can't possibly agree with these statements because I find them rather wide sweeping. I can agree that some people do not possess the required self discipline but in my experience it is not the majority when it comes to music pupils. Yes, there are always some but the practise thing is much more complicated than just a question of time and or motivation.

Children need to be taught how to organise their practice time efficiently and they do certainly have to come to terms with the fact that music requires work. But the key is to find a way of making them realise that work is pleasurable. Self discipline is also pleasurable when you can measure the results. I have some pupils who practice in spite of the lack of interest of their parents.

Also, it can happen in waves. I have had some pupils who have seemed unable to put in their practice time for a while and then it falls back into place. A lot depends on their circumstances at a particular time. We are not always that much in control of our own lives. Things crop up - illness, accidents, overload at work or school - even the weather.

As far as adults are concerned I think the teachers who have said the key is to be flexible are quite right.
I'm afraid it's one of the reasons I don't take on adults - my timetable doesn't allow for enough flexibility.
I did have one very good adult student some years ago but she was irregular in attendance and it rather annoyed me. However she is completely forgiven as I now teach her son. In spite of the fact that his parents come home very late from work and he has to cope for himself quite a lot, he practises very regularly.

If you read my wording carefully, the word majority is key here. My point here is that to learn an instrument we need enormous self discipline if we do not have somebody to make us practise, and most people struggle to find this self discipline. I did not say this is the case with everybody, the concept of a majority is that there will be a significant minority who buck that trend. They are the type who, if taught as children, actually do all their practise without being told by their parents, stick at it for long periods of time, and often end up achieving great things as a result, but as teachers know, they are the minority.

My comment was not meant as an attack on adult learners at all. Of course this is a forum with a high proportion of music enthusiasts, and as such there will be many adult learners who are highly self motivated. There are many adult learners around like this, and my adult student, who does come irregularly due to work committments, is an absolute joy for this reason. It is clear to see that whilst her progress is vairable as she has a demanding job, she does posess enormous self discipline, but this degree of self discipline is held only by a (albeit sizeable) minority.

I've generally found that the unreliable adults are the ones who don't really understand what's involved in learning an instrument. I agree that to a certain extent you have to meet them where they are, and in terms of what they want to do, but I think there has to be a cut-off point. I advertise myself as a teacher, and I would feel somewhat guilty if people were paying me to just listen to them do whatever they wanted to do each week. Personally, I love teaching adults, but it does require quite a firm approach, and it has to be made clear to them from the start what's expected.

As for ad-hoc lessons, I offer these, but like ordinary tuition, it's under contract to at least say that any lesson which has been booked must be paid for. Generally, the pupils who want ad-hoc lessons want them for a very specific reason (i.e. they are advanced players and so don't need the regular contact etc.), but I'd be reluctant to take on a pupil on an ad-hoc basis who was only doing it because either they didn't have time for, or couldn't afford regular lessons...I think that makes for an awkward learning arrangement.

Thank you for that. Now I see this student I mentioned belongs to the latter. Every time he has some kind of event in his life, be it a family wedding or change of jobs (of which there has been many), it seems to affect his ability to come to lessons. I wouldn't classify wedding or change of jobs as a difficult patch! He is also a very needy individual, comes from a rich family and has no understanding of how other people earn a living because he's never had to work hard. I think I'm doubly frustrated because all my other adult pupils are dedicated and disciplined. He also mentioned he comes to lessons to 'escape' which is all nice and well, however I think it's time I escape from him!