For my Guildhall grade 7 I have to play the diminished scales of G (Tone-Semitone, Semitone-Tone), I don't mean the dimished 7th but a dimished scale. Anyway, my teacher hasn't given the notes to me and they are not in my scale book. She wants my scales to be very good before I go back, but I just wondered whether anyone knew the notes of the scale/s?

I've done the dreaded dimished scales too for Grade 7 and 8 clarinet. My only advice is to work the notes out and write them out.
e.g. On note centre G, the tone - semitone one would be G A Bb C Db Eb E F# G. The semitone - tone one would be G Ab Bb B C# D E F G.

Hope this helps and good luck!

QUOTE (nicki_flute @ Jan 3 2005, 05:49 PM)

For my Guildhall grade 7 I have to play the diminished scales of G (Tone-Semitone, Semitone-Tone),

That's a very diminutive scale indeed - would that they were all like that!!!!

Do you mean:

G - A - Bb - C - C# - D# - E - F# - G ???
Edit: Yep and Appassionata's given you the semitone start.

Thanks very much, I won't start playing either of them until my teacher has told me what they are. You are both probably right though

Weird scales... I have never even heard of them.

Now dimished 7ths... those, I like!

Diminished scales are weird, they have no pattern and don't sound logical.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Jan 3 2005, 08:00 PM)

Now dimished 7ths... those, I like!

I prefer dominant 7ths myself

QUOTE (nicki_flute @ Jan 3 2005, 08:25 PM)

Diminished scales are weird, they have no pattern and don't sound logical.

It's because they have no key in the usual major / minor sense. They are useful for
modulation - as scales, just an exercise.

The romantics used them to exaggerate tension or emotion - Beethoven liked them a lot.
You can use them as the top bit of a V min9, like G / B-D-F-Ab (and the min9th ought to resolve on the 5th of chord 1 for a perf cadence in this situation: G - B-D-F-Ab to C - C*-Eb-G. (or Enat - G)

*I did it in 5 parts so two parts would land on this C, the B and the D to avoid doubling the third as that would seriously weaken the resolution.

Ab to .. G
F ......... Eb or Enat
D ........ C
B .........C

10th
below
G (up to) C

But they're more interesting in modulation, allow some really remote keys to be reached quickly.
Does that help explain anything?

QUOTE

Does that help explain anything

Erm, it kind of confused me, sorry!!!

QUOTE

It's because they have no key in the usual major / minor sense. They are useful for modulation - as scales, just an exercise. The romantics used them to exaggerate tension or emotion - Beethoven liked them a lot.

I get that bit, and I kind of get the 2nd bit :-\.

QUOTE (nicki_flute @ Jan 3 2005, 09:07 PM)

Erm, it kind of confused me, sorry!!! ................. I get that bit, and I kind of get the 2nd bit :-\.

Oh, I'm sorry, Nicki.

(My big mouth, nay, typing hands). Then for the first bit, these "scales" have no key in themselves which is why they sound weird. When you compose things you can use them to create some uneasy, emotional, sinister or torrid* chordal writing.

*I mean a chicken vindaloo has nothing on this lot used properly!

The second bit - wasn't sure how much harmony you'd done. Would it help if I copied them onto m/s paper...? or could you - ? I'd be happy to but I won't be able to post them until tomorrow. (I hate to think of confusion when a music example might solve it).
Up there, I said they "have no key in themselves" but they CAN be used in almost any regular key. Since there are only three diminished chords (see below) each one can be used in several keys so it's easy to land on one in one key...and leave it in another. That's why they are useful for modulation.

The three diminished chords are

C - Eb - F# - A

C# -E - G - Bb

D - F - G# - B

(note the semitone steps that they start on: C - C# - D.
If we try to start one on Eb, we just repeat the first one but a 3rd up: Eb - F# - A - C.

So it's a "first inversion" so to speak and has the same harmonic content as the C-Eb-F#-A one.

So just 3 diminished chords. You can construct scales by adding the in-between notes a tone higher than the one below.
C - D - Eb - F - F# etc
Then C#-D#-E-F#-G etc

Uhhh, I hope I haven't just made it worse.

Oops, I don't know whether my reply posted, and I needed to edit it. If you could put it onto manuscript, I would really appreciate it. Thanks so much! Oh, and you have made it clearer!!

There is a pattern to these scales. If you know your diminished 7th chord, then you just play each of these notes and the semitone before each one.....i.e.

G diminished 7th chord with octave = G Bb Db Fb(E enharmonic) G
G diminished scale = G (A) Bb © Db (Eb) Fb (E enharmonic) (F#/Gb) G

That formula would help me to visualise the scale and work out any other diminished scales.

Gae

Thanks Gae, it depends how much I know my diminished 7ths now :-/

QUOTE (Saxophonist @ Jan 3 2005, 08:41 PM)

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Jan 3 2005, 08:00 PM) Now dimished 7ths... those, I like! I prefer dominant 7ths myself

lol.... I used to but I now like diminished better - especially on the flute... they just seem to flow beautifully!

Gae... I think I understand your explanation the best!!!

Rhapsodin: I knew of diminished chords, just never heard of a diminished scale... it would be very interesting/helpful to see them on manuscript.

Hope this helps a bit.
A diminished scale is pretty limited but can be used melodically over diminished harmony which mean dminished chords. (Your teacher might prefer f-flat to my E-nat near the top for technical purity but I'm trying to keep it easier).
Nicki, the first scale you mentioned, based on G should look like this. It relates to the diminished chord that, as shown, has 3 "inversions".


There are only 3 different basic diminished chords (so far as the notes in each one go)
(Please note this isn't technically correct but from a practical/musical view it's best to see it that way now).




(I'd better mention it - someone will - they are derived from chord vii (the triad based on degree vii of any diatonic scale) with a dim7th added on top. Don't worry about that right now. And strictly, there should be 7 letter-names of notes in a 7th, so my G(bass) to E (at the end of the above line & elsewhere) is inaccurate - the E should be an F-flat to the purist)

Since there are only three different diminished chords, each one can be used in 8 different keys, 4 major and 4 minor.

Here's the one we first looked at resolving onto 4 associated MAJOR keys. You don't have to stick to the inversions shown but they're best in this setting.



All of which makes modulation to remote keys dead easy.
There are several ways. But if the (diminished) chord appears in both old and new keys, you move off the old key onto it...then move into the new key. The theoreticians call it a pivotal chord. There're also tech words for leaving and getting into the new key - no more space here for that. This post will prob get deleted as it is....
Anyway, here's an example modulation:

(note: the notation of the vii chords isn't quite correct - sorry the 9s are meant to be dim 7ths.)

The whole subject of dimished chords, how they're derived,used and so on, is quite big but this little lot should help place what a "diminished scale" is. Use it to solo above a diminished chord. There're also lots of nice suspensions to and from these chords.

>>>>Note, I was more concerned to put something up that people could play and see on music paper. Any questions or comments about intervals, please PM.
Cheers,

R

Oh wow, thankyou very much Rhapsodin for all that! It must have taken you ages. You explained it very well too, thankyou so much!
*Wanders off singing diminished scales*

ahhh rhapsodin... ye're a wee star, so y'are!

It's funny, but Rapsondin's explanation of how the diminished scales are used in music makes them seem so much more worth while! (As if I didn't know that already) I might actually have a go at learning them actually, I'm getting sick of the ones I've been playing for years!

I wonder though, whether scales are too much portrayed as a technical exercise, rather than the foundations of music as we know it. For example, when I went to a different teacher for a just a few lessons before my Grade purely to help me pass the aural section, she couldn't understand how I managed to pick up modulations, sightsinging, and chord identification as quickly as I did. But as I tried to explain, it all came back to scales.

One of the few things I can always sing on any note is a major scale. If I think about it, I can just about manage a minor... or any of the others I'm familiar for that matter! (Well except whole tone) This means that when I hear it, I actually just about recognise it, and stuff like chord progressions make sense (een if my theory is rubbish, and I still thing of chords as appegios 'crushed' together!

Awww, some kind comments...thank you.

I think I understand what you mean about scales, Tamsin. Individually as well as collectively they form the blueprint of music (diatonic music anyway, even the atonal stuff to some extent). Once you have the scale you have the key to the horizontal and vertical structure.

I long seen "theory" as being describing how music works and putting names to what's basically instinctive for most people. African or Voodoo/Vodou music says all that need be said about how rhythm isn't the prerogative of western music students and their theorists!
Ask anyone, they'll tell you when something sounds pleasing and not and that usually accords very closely with Nature.

In every case I can think of, something practical happens then the academics grab it and wonder how they can theorise it.

R

Hi Rhaps,

About your closing remark: ">>>>Note, however, that I haven't "shown" all the intervals written in a technically correct way. I won't confuse things right here (by describing how intervals are formed absolutely) but those new to learning them might raise questions."

Can you expand on this or is it too complicated?
PM if you like. Thanks.

Veronique

QUOTE (Wyldbabi @ Jan 5 2005, 08:14 AM)

Can you expand on this or is it too complicated?   PM if you like.  Thanks. Veronique

{I've since edited what you qoted}

Only in the technical nomenclature of intervals - the number part of an interval represents the number of letter-names between lower and upper notes inclusive.

So G to F-flat is a seventh
G to E is a sixth.

E and F flat are the same pitch to a keyboard player but not an aurally sensitive string or wind player. (Enharmonic, they call it). .. Anyway it's best to use a note that preserves the line of the melody. Like G# - F# - E - D# is easier to follow than G# - Gb - E - Eb.
Anyway -
I showed a couple of inversions in a way that makes them look like sixths to the pedant, like the first example evolving the diminished chord as G-Bb-Db-E. However, their sound is obviously diminished seventh and the chords are represented same way in The AB Guide.
But, huh... G-Bb is a minor 3rd; Bb-Db is a minor 3rd; Db-Fb is a minor 3rd but then... Fb-G... that's an aug 2nd and...uh.... Enat-G is a min3rd tho... uh...

So I didn't want to fire a debate on intervals. I've seen people here when someone asks, like, what's the interval between E and Fdouble-flat or similar and they really start pontificating like gooduns. Nice if you like that sort of thing but not everyone's party conversation!

That's all really. Does that clear it up!
x
R

Thank you.

I understand. You don't hold the academic world in high regard do you, he-he! But they don't do an awful lot when you think.

Veronique

And thank you.


Well the academics are locked into a cycle: student->(takes exams and becomes)->teacher->(teaches)->student. Keeps an innocuous status quo going. When some new thing finally gets in the public domain, academies realise they have to take it in/ clothe it in decent jargon if they want to stay in business.

The creator / revolutionary is closer to jail than the professor's chair.

I'd better stop...don't want people thinking I'm a cynic!!!!

You mean you aren't?!