Well, about 3 weeks ago my teacher set the process going. I have absolutely no natural vibrato so am starting from a blank slate there, which apparently is not A Bad Thing.

Spent the first week going round like the laughing policeman Ha-Ha-ing madly; discovered that the best way to get the desired strong pulses from the diaphragm was to almost overblow each note. Then went on to trying to join up the pulses on a single note. Strict instructions only to pulse in groups of odd numbers, 3, 5 ,7. Now am beginning to go up and down in triplets chromatically between F and C first octave, a la Nina Perlova exercise on YouTube that I've found quite helpful, (even though she's dubious about the source of the vibrato being in the diaphragm; never mind, will do whatever helps!)

At this stage I find I 'get' it briefly, but can't hold onto the feeling for more than a few notes. My lovely teacher did a nice imitation of the various creative versions I'm producing the other day! Anyway, I foresee it's going to take quite a while to learn this technique so hope this will give fellow strugglers heart. Would love to have any tips that helped you!

This is really not that helpful, as I am coming from the opposite point of view.

I have a natural vibrato and apparently it sounds ok. The problem is when I need to use less especially or play with no vibrato...

So ideas on how to control a natural vibrato would also be good for me! It's not a thing that my teacher has ever said is a problem but would be useful for me to know!

Dorfmouse - it sounds like you're doing well! It's one of those things which will suddenly come (like double tonguing!) and almost needs you not to think about it.

I too have no natural vibrato (probably from playing the piano for so many years where it doesn't really come into the equation ) and my teacher used to steadfastly refuse to teach it. She said I would know how and when at the right time. In a sense she has been right. I started to feel a vibrato coming in the low notes, strangely when I was playing scales. As soon as my teacher noticed, she started advising me on how to make it with throat, chest or diaphragm - which way was not as important as not bleating like a nanny goat! She also suggested I read the Trevor Wye section on vibrato, and I found that useful. So I began to practise making a very gentle vibrato. It was still in the lower register however, until I hit on the idea of starting it there and then continuing up the scale into the higher registers while using the same muscles (in my case the diaphagm ones seem to be the most easy to control).

Then at the beginning of this year I wanted to put some into the pieces I was learning from the Rutter Suite Antique and the thing which then struck me the most was how often do you vibrate? I am interested in your comment about "strict instructions to pulse only in odd numbers" because I started listening carefully to how professionals sound. Typical of an engineer . I found in the Rutter pieces that they generally used either quavers or semiquavers at the same tempo of the piece depending on how fast the piece was being played, which if I understand what you are saying would be even numbers. Now I am not saying this is the right or wrong way, but at least it was something to listen to and copy, which is what I did and I like the result I am getting. Like you I don't get it all the time, particularly if I am playing a particularly difficult phrase, but it is gradually coming naturally on the longer, held notes. Again, this may not be what a professional aims to do, but for the moment it will have to suffice until I am more confident about the accuracy, timing, duration, and dynamics of the notes I am playing to think more about the tone and the vibrato.

Can empathise with this Emsoboe developed Flute vibrato, and it turned up on everything else, not good. Particularly bad on Oboe but also destructive on Recorder.

She has learnt to control it only because her Recorder teacher made her stop using vibrato altogether. Eighteen months on they are starting to put it back in.

Perhaps having to learn how to do vibrato is a good thing longer term.

I found it was something that just started 'turning up'. I guess I've been lucky though, that I've always been able to turn it off altogether if required. I don't generally think that hard about the speed used, but I am fairly certain I could control it if required.

A few general thoughts: I've found vibrato is much easier to 'find' if playing loudly, with a lot of air, and a fairly dark tone, in the bottom and middle octave. If things are sweet and light, then its much more work to get it going. The notes need to be really well supported with the diaphragm. At the same time, it is possible to use vibrato to keep a note going when you're running out of air / not using enough. I can keep an A2 going for about 40 seconds on one breath, but during the last seconds vibrato sneaks in, giving the fading air stream a few pushes to stop the note dying altogether. This might be worth trying for someone hoping it'll 'spring into life' one day!

I think this has the potential to be a very interesting thread. As a teacher I consider vibrato to be one of the most mysterious and challenging things to teach. Unlike teaching a string instrument or the piano, there is so much going on inside us when playing a wind instrument which we cannot see, yet as teachers we have to put into words to communicate to our pupils, and vibrato is one of the most extreme cases. The type of exercises dorfmouse describe are the most universally agreed methods of learning vibrato yet there continues to be debate as to how best to teach it. I have never encountered a player totally at ease with the technique of vibrato who can with complete confidence describe exactly what is happening to produce the technique.

I was taught the traditional vibrato exercises at around grade 5-6 level. As it was such a long time ago, I am not sure how it evolved from here, but I soon came to a point where the vibrato was a natural part of the technique which I can vary however I wish to colour the music however I want, so it seems that method of teaching worked for me. It hasn't always been successful without further help with my pupils however, and I have often heard players elsewhere who's vibrato still sounds like an exercise - mechanical and continuous, and to be honest no vibrato at all would sound far better.

One thing I find can help is to naturally explore what the body wants to do without giving it rigid instructions. You can do this by placing your hand infront of your mouth and blowing at your hand. Try at first to make the airspeed completely even. Then try varying how fast you blow. Perhaps start at one level, increase then decrease the air speed. Don't instruct your body how to do any of this, but just as you experiment, gently observe what is going on, what aspects of your breathing apparatus might be moving. None of this should be difficult, it is something natural we are all born to do. Keep experimenting, imagine your breath is like leaves rustling in a summer breeze with its natural ebb and flow, and just notice what it feels like and what is happening. Gradually increase the frequency of the fluctuation, continuing to feel the air on your hand, and observe what it feels like inside you.

I am not saying this to rubbish the more usual methods for teaching this, but all too often the traditional exercises alone do not successfully lead to a fully expressive vibrato. In case anybody early in their vibrato development is wondering, once the technique is fully developed, you don't spend all your time concentrating on giving constant pushes from the diaphragm. This is just a slightly different perspective that might help in conjunction with traditional exercises.

I'd be really interested to hear more perspectives on this topic, more experiences from people learning, or any further teaching methods.

Glad someone else is the same..


Tamsin - you can teach me how to breathe then!

I'm working on vibrato at the moment, and finding that I can only do it on command from my teacher once, then I start overthinking it, and it vanishes. I seem to be able to get some in some of the more expressive pieces I'm doing - my teacher started teaching me when she could hear I was wanting to put some vibrato in, but didn't really know how. I can do vibrato deliberately on notes that "want it" in a piece, so I can do it deliberately, just not cold.

Learning vibrato did point out i was playing without using the right muscles up 'til now (oops!) so I do struggle with stamina though...

It's interesting to hear all your perspectives, thank you. Lots of food for thought.

@ Gedall; (Typical engineer! I know the symptoms well, my OH is one too!) My teacher initially suggested groups of seven preferably, but is happy with any odd number. I think the odd numbers idea is that the vibrato should be independent of rhythm and become part of one's tone possibilities. But then Trevor Wye starts off with even numbers in his exercises ...

@ Yet Another; Interesting that Gedall found something to copy that helps, and Random says it vanishes with overthinking. Your 'awareness' approach makes sense to me. I know it can work wonders because I use it in piano practice. Too often practice becomes an intellectual exercise, rather than an exploration of sound and sensation. I was reassured by you as a professional describing vibrato as a somewhat mysterious process. Also 'In case anybody early in their vibrato development is wondering, once the technique is fully developed, you don't spend all your time concentrating on giving constant pushes from the diaphragm.' - Thank goodness!! At my lesson the other night my teacher let me put my hand over the diaphragm area while she plated a scale with a gentle vibrato, it was amazing to feel it working all the time, seemingly effortlessly!

PS; last night's practice - not a trace of a wobble. Think will crown self as Queen of the Straight Note!

But think how wonderful all your baroque pieces must sound... and effortlessly...



For all I can play without vibrato, is does still tend to sneak in. I do have to concentrate a little on playing without it!

Yesterday there was vibrato work in the Recorder lesson. Part of the re-build after stripping it all back. The teacher wasn't sure if daughter normally did throat vibrato on other instruments (she doesn't). At the moment they are working on it using the diaphragm.

Nicki_flute the vib was a bit of a nightmare when it first appeared and went on being so, sneeking into every wind instrument she plays. It's much better now I think she actually understands more how it happens and when to use it.

[quote name='tamsin' date='Oct 18 2010, 09:23 AM' post='997153']
But think how wonderful all your baroque pieces must sound... and effortlessly...



Hmm ... if only it wasn't for all those trills and flowery bits!

Update

Am in dire need of resuscitation! My vibrato looks something like the cardiograph of an expiring patient ... long straight lines interrupted by a few pathetic blips when they get thumped back into life. Now if this was some hospital soap there'd be a handsome intern around ....

Keep perservering

(or maybe think of the handsome intern as you practise!)

Thought I'd post an update just to give any fellow non-vibrators heart!

Well, back then I took my case of moribund vibrato to my teacher. She was able to detect a faint wobble which hadn?t been there before. (She?s not someone who tries to spare one?s feelings by making reassuring comments so I take her at her word!) Apparently I was being too subtle about it all, and went away with permission to make horrible noises; never mind about over-blowing, think of bellows or steam trains or delivering babies or whatever works to get those big pushes ?

So it?s now 3 months on and I can produce at slow speed quite regular pulses. Hiking up the tempo sometimes results in a short runaway stretch of ?real? vibrato but I still can?t hang on to it long enough to tell where it is or produce it on demand. It?s kind of ?now you hear it now you don?t?. Frustrating, but my teacher is quite unconcerned and happy about where I?ve got to. Anyway, must just persevere with the exercises, not worry about it and be aware of what's going on inside.

I'm glad to hear that you're getting somewhere. It does sound like steady progress.

With regard to your teachers comments about making odd noises, maybe also try pulling everything around a bit? Twisting my head piece about does interesting things to my tone (not to mention tuning!) but can force me to play in a particular way, which can then be applied to my 'normal' playing position too. I sometimes wonder if we panic too much about perfect technique and let it get in the way of experimentation...

I think you could be right... but all my experimentation so far sounds frightful!

I don't really play flute but when I do it comes complete with vibrato, right off. And I have to think about slowing it down, not speeding it up, as it's quite fast. When I try to do vibrato on the oboe it sounds/feels as though I'm doing something similar and it sounds, as notmusicmum says, absolutely GHASTLY on the oboe.

Vibrato on a flute must come from the diaphragm via an OPEN throat. Then it is controllable. Any quick vibrato that is not controllable is usually the result of a closed throat and quite the reverse of what is desirable

Fascinating thread! ; i've really enjoyed reading the comments

I played clarinet from 13 onwards (no vibrato) and never gave it a thought. On buying a flute aged 22 again, I didn't give it a thought until I did my grade 6 exam. I started to realise that the recordings i'd heard sounded different to my playing (the pro's used a lovely vibrato).

I must admit I was just lucky and the diaphram vibrato just happened once I'd started to regularly listen to good recording so I knew what I was hoping to reproduce.

The thing I find difficult is ending a note softly; it can tend to just pathetically fizzle out or end a tad too abruptly

The saxophone vibrato took me a full 2 months to 'get' much to my frustration and I found I was doing it again with the diaphram (as in the flute version) and not the jaw. However again, listening to some good recordings and finding 'the sound' that I wanted to achieve set me on the right path and nowadays the jaw vibrato is as easy as breathing.

Thanks again for starting this thread!

Saxgirl

That would explain a lot!

I suspect, then, that when I pick up a flute I am confused by the free airflow, being used to having a tiny little opening through which I have to channel air on the oboe, so probably I am unconsciously constricting the air flow with my throat. Or something like that.

Obviously I should just leave the flute alone as I will only have to relearn everything if I decide to take it up properly.

My flatmate learned vibrato just from imitating what he heard - as you did, saxgirl.

To end a note softly: move your embouchure forward, at the same time slowly bringing your bottom lip up to join your top lip. It will take a bit of practice, but it is worth the effort.

My son did that too in his flute-learning days. He was a child who liked to know How Things Worked, so his teacher showed him briefly what to do. Result: a vibrato he could turn on and off at Grade 2 standard. It makes me . I am just beginning to look at the Grade 6 flute exam music, and there is no vibrato on the horizon at all. My teacher hasn't even mentioned it yet, but am I right in assuming that it will be needed for this grade?

Not necessarily necessary for Grade 6 - but it might depend on the pieces you pick. I'd like to have it in place for Grade 8, but expect to be able to pass it without... It's certainly harder than string vibrato!

I have never done vibrato on flute - made it through grade 7 without it...though teacher at time was beginning to work on it so would have wanted it for Grade 8.

Thank you Andante-in-c ! can't wait to try

That's reassuring. So are you suggesting that if I chose slowish pieces, it might be desirable? I haven't decided on pieces yet - would like to look at quite a few possibilities, but maybe Pepusch's Largo and Allegro (List A), Gaubert's Sicilienne (List B) and Drouet's Study in C# minor (List C). Do you think any of these would benefit from vibrato?

Ah....he mentioned the V word today.....

My teacher said she was playing for several years before she was expected to learn vibrato. (Much longer than me ... but then she was much younger - presumably I haven't got so much time ...!)

Or to paraphrase Mark Twain on learning German, only the dead have time to learn it ...

I was reading Misterioso's similar vibrato thread just now, so thought I'd update the record of my struggles!
After doing a few minutes every day, and feeling quite dejected about it at times I've now got something that is a recognisable vibrato at a moderate speed. I can produce it fairly reliably in scales over about the first one and a half octaves, still with a big push on separate notes. Sometimes I can keep it going over two or three succesive long notes.

My teacher has now asked me to pick lots of easy folk/traditional tunes to play through and just do my best to get it going where I feel it fits. I'm not to worry about producing a beautiful sound, just be resolute. It sounds to me like an overdone wobbly contralto when it happens; far from the delicate shimmer I would love! But at least I'm now convinced it's doable - six months down the line!

But then, when you've had such a struggle to get any vibrato, surely you should be proud of what you can produce? Don't do yourself down!

One of my favourite for really getting into vibrato-mode is Londonderry Air. Lots of nice swelling phrases to let it build up over and fade back out. Going overboard and properly slushy on the dynamics helps too (I find vibrato easier when playing loud).

Thanks, I love the Londonderry Air too and was actually saving it for when I can do a nice vibrato! I've just rooted out an old piano score of the Godfather Waltz which I think will also do quite nicely, slow and haunting. It will be played with a nostalgic-sounding quaver I think!

P.S. I also found Schraubchen's hint (on the other thread) to do a staccato study with lots of diaphragm support before starting vibrato practice helpful.

Hmm, that's interesting. I ususally warm up with a fast baroque piece, after doing some scales. Something with lots of scale patterns worked into the music, and fairly detatched...

(Of course, the downside is, that being so out of practise, it doesn't take much of playing fast and detatched for me to become a bit to tired to carry on!!)

I can do it! I can do it!!

I came back after a week away at Easter and no practice (significant?), had a go at my Godfather and it just popped out! It still tends to play hide and seek but a good shove gets it back. But it's going reasonably consistently and also in other simple pieces. I actually like practicing scales with various numbers of wobbles to the second! I feel it somewhere at the top of the chest area.

My teacher's been ill for a few weeks so I didn't get the Official Seal of Approval until yesterday's lesson. (followed inevitably within seconds by "now we can start refining things !!")

Anyway, I'm so pleased and I hope all the comments and tips on this thread might have helped some other despairing folks. Looking back, it's taken about 7 months to get to this stage.

Thank you.
(Need a bow-of-acknowledgment icon!)

Well, here I am again, a few months further along and musing over progress. Have had a few lessons with new teacher as former teacher has moved to the other side of the country. I had religiously (well, more or less!) kept up my simple vibrato exercises over the summer. So when she asked me to show what I'd been doing her immediate response was that we must now work on making it less intense - well, blow me down wiv' a fevver!!

So in scales I've been practicing;
-each note straight and then with a set number of wobbles
-starting with a slow 2 beat, changing to 4, then 6, then 8 wobbles (quite easy)
-starting with fast 8, the 6, then 4 then 2 (harder)
-as above, with crescendo or decrescendo and both.

In pieces occasionally now it appears of its own accord, not necessarily desirably! I'm attempting to switch it on and off intentionally. Switching sounds too mechanical and one of my goals now is to get that lovely almost imperceptible change without any break in the tone. I'm working on Piazzolla's "Cafe 1930" and Gluck's "Sc?ne des Champs-Elys?es " which are both great for trying out different qualities of vibrato.

In my lesson I find it really helpful when my teacher uses wavy hand signals to cue in different speeds, and also just her demonstrating and me copying seems to remove the overthinking barrier and I suddenly find I can after all make a nice transition.
So, slow, but I think quite sure progress. Am pleased!!

Great to hear about your progress.

Thank you!

One vital aspect of learning to play with vibrato is that it must be controllable. If you wish to play in an orchestra, then, for much of the time, you will play with no vibrato. Principal players will use it to enhance a solo phrase, especially in romantic repertoire, and warm the tone in appropriate places, but it is just one tool in the box. Just imagine a sustained wind-section chord with people wobbling away at different speeds! A pure straight sound with good intonation is essential, so make sure you can do this easily.

Well, a hint of vibrato turned up with me in my lesson today. It's very rudimentary, and completely eludes me often, but a hint is a hint. I think one of the harder things about it is feeling it in the right part of me....

But something to build on.

Take heart from my year-long (and continuing) struggle, Misterioso! You can do it!!

If it wouldn't be a bore for you, it would be really interesting to have a one post summary outlining each stage in the process and what you actually did at each.

You've given quite a lot of info scattered through the thread but it would be really useful to have in one place your step-by-step progress.

H?mm, now that?s set my brain creaking! Reading back and trying to fill in gaps, I think it went something like this;
!. Absolutely straight notes, no problem!
2. The wheezing steam-engine stage. Huge pushes from diaphragm resulting in detached fluctuations in tone. Books describe this as silently saying Ha-Ha. I felt it?s more like the kind of breathing- out you do in sit-ups, sort of pfuh ?pfuh (because of the flute embouchure) I found this very hard work and sounded horrible, but my teacher said that?s OK and the aim was to get something to work on, no matter how stupid it sounded. (Sounded like an old steam engine trying to pull out of the station and then dying?)
3. Gradually managed to join up the pushes into a very slowly fluctuating sound, just a few pulses and then would run out of breath. Still very frustrating. Tips from various people helped, especially those that can be done away from the flute ? such as blowing on hand, visualising blowing out a row of candles.
4. Nina Perlove?s vibrato exercise on You Tube really helped. She advocates practising in triplets and somehow following this helped me to be able to join up the pulses more consistently and continuously.
5. Practised scales using different numbers of wobbles e.g. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, per note (not in the same scale!!) Still using lots of diaphragm push to get it going, but more often feeling it as a sensation happening somewhere higher up in the thorax.
6. Tried to incorporate some vibrato into simple, slow moving tunes. Sounded horrible but was told to grit my teeth, (not while playing!), stop moaning and keep trying. The first tune where it began to sound anyway natural was The Godfather Waltz. (I?m not a fan of a lot of vibrato anyway, so maybe that?s partly why it?s been such a long learning curve?)
7. Exercises in scales play note straight changing to vibrato according to teacher?s hand signal
8. Exercises in scales each note going from a slow to faster vibrato (e.g. 12,12, 123,123, 1234,1234, 123456,123456, 12345678,12345678. And vice-versa.
9. At present - beginning to find it?s turning up of its own accord more and more now, not always where wanted. Other times still have to give a good push to get it going. Sometimes can produce a smooth transition from straight to vibrato, other times it sounds like changing gear badly.
10. Work in progress!

Hope it makes some sense.

Edit - Why do the apostrophes end up as question marks after pasting from Word? They don't on the preview. Grrr.

Thanks for that, Dorfmouse, it's really helpful. I think I'm currently stuck somewhere between stages 2 and 3 - so plenty of work ahead!

Yes, thanks Dorfmouse.

I'm stuck at stage 4. I can do those exercises OK but when it comes to putting it into a piece it can go hideously wrong - usually I start out well, but end up with the vibrato getting faster and faster as I go on.

I'm going to try out your 'scales' vibrato exercise.

Thanks dorfmouse - very useful!

How long did you spend at each stage (you could edit that into your post ), especially stages 1-4?

Actually, I'm asking because I think I'll have to go through a very similar process on the oboe.

Maybe I will eventually have to do this on the flute too to "relearn" vibrato. I don't play that often but when I do vibrato comes out automatically but I need to learn to slow it down and turn it off when I need to.

How long? Very roughly, (with lots of sessions where I couldn't bear more than about 2 minutes of it);

2 and 3. Just getting anything was the worse bit. 5-6 months
4 and 5. To be able to to with some consisitency another 3-4 months
Carried on at 5 and 6 about 3 months (It was over the summer, so no lessons)
7 and 8. Have been doing the past 2 months. It's getting easier all the time now in exercises and scales

This reminded me to do Nina Perlove's exercise again last night which I really like and hadn't done for a while. I found it was now much easier, and felt and sounded quite nice at a reasonably rapid rate. I straight afterwards played through my "Cafe 1930" and managed to incorporate the vibrato quite musically for the first time.
I have hopes now!