Just wondering how long it took people to get to grips with the 4th finger when just learning? I know how to do it, and my teacher has given me tips on how to practice, but I truly do seem to be getting nowhere wth it - always either twoo flat, too sharp, or not pressed firmly enough against the fingerboard. And it makes my 3rd finger switch position too lol.

I know this is all to be expected and its just a matter of time. Was just wondering if I would still be pulling my hair out this time next year (for this reason lol, I know I will be pulling it out for different reasons as well by then!)

well, I've never had a problem in pressing hard enough with my 4th finger, my 'pinky' has always been very strong and I can even vibrato quite well with it, but for the 'too sharp/too flat' bit, I still have that problem now after 3 years and 10 months I've been learning

I'm going to pretend you said 'it'll have improved by xmas'



Perhaps a new and shiny Liu Xi violin will make it aaaaalllllll better

Hi aesir22

I've had exactly the same problem when I first started doing the 4th finger. Not sure if this is the 'right' way, but what I did was practised just pressing down the fingers from 1st to 4th, then do an alternate between 3rd and 4th fingers until my hand actually feels sore. It does actually help.

Also, something I have just discovered recently is that the position of the wrist would also affect your 4th finger. When I am doing the 4th finger, I tried changing the wrist (so that the back of your hand gradually faces the floor and your palm closer to the Violin's neck), and it made holding down 4th finger easier.

I hope this helps!

If there is a finger equivalent of "flat-footed" then I've got it in my 4th finger. And its still there after 18 months or so of learning.

Aesir, if you like, you may read that as "I will have a fully-functional curved pinky before Halloween".

Lol... I agree - a new violin will DEFINITELY make all the difference!!!
Seriously... Almost all my students do struggle with 4th finger - but adults more so than children/teenagers.
I don't know whether its because adults are less flexible, or that 4th finger gets used to being pretty lazy and doesn't appreciate being asked to do some work!!! But with regular practice of scales with 4ths instead of open strings, technical exercises aimed at improving 4th finger, and lots of fun relatively easy pieces with 4th fingers in instead of open, you should feel yourself improving. Its also worth looking at your arm position - your elbow being in the right place can help a lot with stretching. Pay attention also to your thumb position, and the shape of your fingers...
I think the reason it takes so long is that you are essentially trying to build up muscle and strength in a weak finger, which will take time... but eventually you will find it much easier! Independence of your 3rd and 4th finger also needs work, as you have found out! They don't like working on their own! so lots of 3rd and 4th finger practice and exercises will help... I find most of my pupils prefer doing 4th finger in a 1 octave A major scale (G and D string) to start with - so 3rd finger is #, and 4th is next to it... you then can extend it to 2 octaves and work on the stretch between 3rd finger D and 4th E on the A string...
If you practice slowly thinking about pitch and position it should get easier?! Hope this helps!

sorry Geminist but I have to 'expand/clarify' on this,
I might be reading this wrong or are you talking about the 'frying pan' hold of the violin....? (if anyone knows what I am talking about when I say 'frying pan hold') as generally speaking the wrist should not be bent either inward or outward but should be roughly in line with your forearm

Hiya, Just reiterating what Muzikalbadger said - lots of four finger scales and lots of exercises.

You probably already know about http://www.violinonline.com/techniqueexercises.htm but if not I've found these useful, thought I'm onlycurrently doing exercises 1, 2 and 3. Bars 13 and 14 of exercise 1 might be helpful.

Good luck. Happy practicing.

Yes I agree. You have to be careful Geminist, that in trying to make your 4th finger easier to play with, you don't develop an incorrect hold - the so called frying pan hold.
One thing that I have found helpful is to have the 3 fingers in place on the violin and to to keep the 4th finger nicely curved and lift it up and down, on and off the string repeatedly for increasing lengths of time. Start with 30 seconds and build up - this helps it to become more independent of the 3rd finger.

It's a menace the 4th finger and requires a lot of work to strengthen it and for it to learn where it is supposed to be. It really is a case of being patient and doing a a lot of scales and exercises.

Ah ha, thanks for the head's up.

Would the frying pan hold means that your palm is touching the base of the neck? What I am doing is to tilt it slightly whilst still maintaining a good gap between my palm and the neck.

I'll keep an eye out on this when practising tonight!

Many thanks again!

Yes, that's what is meant by the frying-pan hold. Your left hand should really keeps its normal position, as this should help you reach with the 4th finger. Allowing the palm to get any closer to the neck will hinder what you are trying to do.

My 4th finger position is always always flat.

I seem incapable of rectifying the problem

hope your teacher is working with you on this one?

Me too, Lois! Those pesky fourth fingers....who'd play violin, eyh?
On a serious note, it can get pretty depressing...but we'll all get there

Just another point to add to the ones already made. The 3rd finger is the weakest on the hand and will rely on both the 2nd and 4th more than you realise to aid it's own movement. Therefore, the more you strengthen the 3rd, the more the fingers either side of it can work independently.

I did not know that, that's really interesting! Thanks miffy

That's because the second and third fingers share one tendon. The second finger dominates the tendon and the third finger therefore struggles to move independently. It has to be taught independence, which is only achieved by developing it's strength.

The fourth finger in many beginning violinists is weak, unless they already do other activities which rely on particularly strong fingers.

To all those struggling, I would say to remember that Rome wasn't built in a day. Learning technique on the violin can be a lifetime of work.

I've been playing for ~8 years and it still can be a problem! Too high, too low, weak vibrato compared to other fingers... I think this may be an even bigger problem on viola, since the viola is a bigger instrument and 4th finger is more of a stretch.

The short answer - yes it improves with time!

I am evidence of that because I'm starting to get my fourth finger properly in tune on my 15.5inch viola and when I started I thought it would never happen! It's far more flexible too.

Fourth-finger vibrato is a whole n'other pandora's box though...