Someone once said that he reckoned that a degree had a half life of two years.
What might be the half life of dip ABRSM?

I've done my best to respond sensibly to some of your questions, in the hope that what I said might be of use to anyone reading the threads, but I have to say that this is complete balderdash. How do you expect to be taken seriously, when you are starting yet another discussion about the perceived value of diplomas? Do yourself a favour and talk about something else, please.

And for goodness sake, let's just let this one drop, people, unless I am being a complete divot and have missed some crucial point...

Who said that and what evidence did he or she have to make that claim?

You and me both....

The learning you have from doing a degree or whatever qualification will give you knowledge and skills which will stand you in good stead for years to come. I note, however, that you have not backed up your quote with any form of citation with which we could check your assertion...

I don't understand the question.

Stop trying to prove that the DipABRSM is worth nothing. You clearly have an issue with self-esteem in this area. Did you fail the Dip by any chance? If so, get up, brush yourself off and re-sit. Many others manage to do this without irritating an entire forum of respectable, musical people.

"Half life" is a scientific term used to mean the length of time taken for a radioactive substance (C14 for example) to lose half it's radioactive count.

Therefore I guess the person who passed the comment about a degree meant that it's worth/value decreases exponentially over time. So in your example the person is saying that 2 years after passing a degree it's worth to a prospective employer is half what it was as soon as you completed it. 2 years later it would only be worth half again and so on.

This is a valid point I guess as knowledge in a particular subject is always expanding. My degree , passed highly in 1995 would not have the same value now in the scientific field as it did then as I've not kept my knowledge up to date, nor have I worked in this field for a very long time. Knowledge has increased and/or perceptions have changed.

I guess the same could be said of any exams, including graded music exams if you do them and then play no more. However, this is not usually the case and people can also improve exponentially if they work at their particular area, instrumental or otherwise.

I'm not sure I see the point to your question though. And when all said and done, this is only based on one person's opinion is it not? And that by nature is very subjective.

It's very difficult to apply half life to a degree or any other qualification, it depends how vocational or relevant your degree is to what you do next. Many of us use our degrees/other qualifications as a stepping stone in our careers/personal development but I don't think they lose their value with time

Maybe not ... as you say it all depends on the degree/course etc.... and how you use it.

I do though think that should I now apply for a job in Scientific research I wouldn't get a look in against new graduates. My degree is now out of date and many advances in the field have been made. When I first qualified I understood my subject right up to the most recent advances. Now those will be well out of date so to some extent my degree has lost value with time.

In another way, having my degree enabled me to take a further course in teaching and I feel that in that case the course was just a start but it did set down the basics. Most of the learning in that instance is "on the job" through experience gained over time. Once one can teach one can always teach in my opinion so the course that taught that will not devalue over time.

I was however, attempting to explain Morton's acquaintance's statement in a way that might make sense without rising to the bait or entering into controversy about the diploma which to be honest I know little about.

(edited to clarify penultimate paragraph 30.12.10 at 14:05pm)

No, I haven't taken dip ABRSM.

I am only playing my second study now. I decided not to do exams on this instrument. I have two performers diplomas on my first instrument, neither of them are from this board.

I made the decision not to take anymore exams, because I only want to play pieces I enjoy playing, I don't want to learn scales from memory, I do want to have plenty of time to do lots and lots of technical exercises, and most of all I want to spend as much time as possible making music with other people.

Lastly, I don't care what standard I am at playing pieces I have practised. I spend most of my time playing in a wind band, and it doesn't appear that there are any exams that can examine me in the skill needed for that.

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

That may be because it is not fully defined: it does not specify the numeric variable that declines in value by a half in two years.

In rdioactive decay the stuff doesnt vanish, it turns into something else.
Similarly with education. Maybe you become less hot on the current definition of x, y, and z, but you know how to learn them and that knowledge is also valuable.
Education is never wasted.

love it!!

Have I missed something??
I've been mainly off forum for the last week over Christmas

No!

Ok.... Been doing a bit of diggin' and might have put 2 and 2 together ....

There seems to be hostility aimed at one particular person so I've obviously missed how this came about but is it connected to the forum departures??? (makes it sound like an airline!! )
Am I better off staying out of certain threads?

In a nutshell, morton joined the Forums a few weeks ago, and in that time has posted negative threads and comments containing about amateur orchestras, adult learners, and the general pointlessness of any diploma which isn't at least at Licentiate level. People have taken umbrage at this, hence the spate of departures.

morton, I offer you a challenge - come clean. Tell us all about your musical experiences and endeavours. You've stated that you have an LTCL in an instrument which you haven't identified and you no longer play. You are currently at a high standard on oboe (high enough to play the Six Metamorphoses after Ovid, in any case), yet not aware of the different systems of thumbplate. You want to play chamber music, yet you come across as someone with whom not many of us would really like to spend an afternoon making music for fear of unleashing more of your rather abrasive comments. You dismiss associate-level diplomas, yet fail to recognise that an amateur in any field can be driven by targets, be it reaching Grade 1, a few OU credits, or travelling behind all of the restored ex-Barry scrapyard locomotives, and that achieving these targets can be a real boost to that person (even if they won't subsequently earn their living as a professional pianist, scientist or trainspotter). Be positive, share your experiences and you might even find a lowly DipABRSM clarinettist who'd invite you round for cake and chamber music

To make this clear, this Barry is the town in South Wales - I don't own a scrapyard

I'm only going to say one thing : I have a degree (which involved much clarinetting), but now I feel the time is right to refresh myself by doing diplomas in the same instrument - mainly because I care enough about my clarinet playing to ensure my standards remain high.

While I'm not sure that the departures are necessarily 100% correlated with what happened, I have to back up most of the above (though I removed most of the quote just for brevity, happy to put it back if anyone objects) - and also to mention that the worst of the threads have already been removed. Anyone reading only the currently existing threads will not be getting the full picture.

However, as someone else mentioned, there have been some sensible discussions...

Is that not how trolls operate? Put in enough sensible posts and threads to ensure they don't get the boot while still being offensive and irritating in other threads?

I am TOTALLY OUT on many things by the looks of it then! departures? bad threads?
I've been a victim of a bad thread not so long ago, it's only a 'bad memory now' but still a 'sore taste' in the back of my throat I have to say. I am sad to read that something of this kind is still happening 'somewhere'!!!
in the meantime I can't make any comments about anything or anyone in here but just wanted to share my 'surprise' reaction when reading this today....

As far as I know, its Skylark, JoMook and The Old Lady that have left which is a shame. I don't know the actual reasons, but I spoke to one of those members and they said the forum just isn't what it used to be.

I'd definately second that

This is what I am interested in.

I am interested in helping anyone but especially retired people to get pleasure from making music with others. I believe that playing music is very good 'brain training.' It also helps with coordination., and can greatly improve someone's social life.

I get very sad/slightly irritated by people who join groups 'in order to do concerts,' as I believe that this is only a very small part of music making with others. I also find it very sad that some adults are more interested in judging their music achievements in the form of which exam they are taking/ have taken, rather than which piece they have enjoyed playing for fun.

Some of the postings on this web site make no sense to me.
For example there are lots of posts about which exam people are thinking of doing next, but hardly any offering helpful advice, in terms of what an examiner has said to about how they could improve an aspect of their playing. Some people might find this very useful.

Also as music making is supposed to be for fun ( unless it is your job, at which point is becomes like any other job) I can't see why people take exams, if they don't enjoy the experience.

I am trying to encourage more adults to take up musical instruments. Over time this could lead to a reduction in the size of audiences at amateur orchestra concerts, if the players only play and don't listen. If amateur orchestral players were prepared to support other amateur orchestras by being a member of the audience, even if the standard is lower than the one they are in, I believe this would help make concerts more enjoyable.

I am very much in favour of chamber music clubs. I know of two locally.

In case someone doesn't know what these are, I will explain. A group of people get together and form a club in which members get together to play chamber music. There is the option of doing a performance of what they have been playing. Apart the odd exception, the vast majority of concerts are given for other members of the club. It is not the intention of the club to give performances for non club members. Members can do as much or as little playing as they like.

I woud also like to try to raise the standard of musical education available to adults. Many courses for adults seem to advertise grade 8 as the standard that they will teach to. I would like to see this raised to above FRSM level, as this would cater for those people who do play as amateur musicians at a higher standard.

Doesn't for me : sorry!

Edit: Life's too short, I thought better of getting involved. Season's greetings.

Or me, and I'm not sorry

That's interesting - who are you to judge others and how and why they play and how they measure their own personal goals? I play solo classical guitar, so there really isn't much scope for playing with others.

You also mentioned:-



Funny that!!!

I don't really want to get involved in this rather unhappy sounding thread, but I do take issue with a couple of things you say, Morton.

Advertising "to grade 8" only gives pupils an idea of the level to which the teacher is teaching and there is surely nothing wrong with that - no different to "I teach maths to A level" (which I don't!).

There is LOADS of advice swishing around on the forums about exams, performances, Viva tips etc etc. Perhaps you haven't looked at the right time?


I remember the thread about amateurs giving concerts- why shouldn't they? Nobody forces anyone else to come/buy a ticket. How is this so different to a chamber group? And yes, we'd all love to play in a chamber group, but it's often easier to find an orchestra than a chamber group - more players are required and it doesn't matter if, say, one cellist can't make it (which it does in a string quartet!).

Why is 'brain training' a better reason to play music than giving a concert? I thought that was the tag-line for the Nintendo DS, which is a tad easier to master than the violiin or flute.

And many folks do exams for FUN, for the sense of achievement, the progress they can quantify.

And what is wrong with all of the folk on the forum discussing these things anyway? Most are here to communicate with others doing similar things.

Enough, though...that earlier post of morton's was just too needlessly critical.

If you are looking to encourage people to start learning an instrument or to sing then I think that more courses aimed at earlier levels might be of a lot better value.

Hear hear Barry!!! I love my job, and find it extremely fun, interesting and motivating!! I have taught music for 5 years, studied it for 4 before that, and spent all of high school in the music department, and I have yet to lose the enjoyment I get from it, even though it is my job! I consider myself EXTREMELY lucky and fortunate that I have a job I love and I can't see that changing.

Unless one is in a big city, trying to access anyone who teaches beyond Grade VIII is a challenge, let alone teaches up to postgraduate level. There's also the fact that many people will know what Grade VIII is, but very few will know what an FRSM is.

Oh, and things move from difficult to REALLY difficult after Grade VIII.

If all piano teachers had to be capable of teaching beyond FRSM level then there would be very few piano teachers outside of the conservatoires ... and thousands of people that want to study at a level Grade 8 or below that would end up teacherless.

Dare I add in them if you count Junior level.

Nor me!!

Nor me! I feel privileged to be able to do what I adore all day every day. The word 'job'' just doesn't seem the right word somehow

Now which way is that meant?

I read it as lack of higher level courses not teachers for individuals.
If it means teachers do teacher advertise as specifically teaching adults and not children?

Nor for me : )

morton, thank you for posting this. We all had an idea that you had certain topics you wanted to discuss, but it was never clear what they were. This makes so much more sense. I am going to respond but not now, being well down a bottle of Chianti.

This thread seems to have a sub-theme to it, like many others recently , that the teachers of instruments really ought to be world class performers with a professorship at some good university, presumably also to have a back catalogue of recordings of the 'great works'. And I suppose they should have have a string of letters after their name that would raise a frown if I picked them out of the Scrabble bag.

Unfortunately I don't suppose I would find many teachers of that level in my corner of England. And if I did then there would be a waiting list for their lessons.

I personally have immense admiration for anyone who has passed a diploma, never mind FRSM, LRSM or above. In fact, I am quite impressed by anyone who has passed grade 8!

However, I am more impressed by good musicians (with or without qualifications). I am sure we all know a few! It isn't just about playing their instrument well, it is the whole package - the enthusiasm, the rounded knowledge, and well basically the love of music.

The whole issue of 'exams' has made me ponder my signature. What am I showing by listing the grades? It certainly isn't to show off, since this forum is full of more talented and qualified people than me. I guess it represents the journey, but I only take the journey because of a love of music.

I doubt it unless your corner of England is particularly affluent.
I also expect that they'd soon run out of high level people to teach as there might be hardly anyone around willing to take on beginners.
Also are all these highly qualified people all going to be happy taking on all those adult beginners that Morton is hoping to encourage?
Especially if they are mostly of the 'just want to play a few tunes I know' variety.

Cheers, pushpull.
Inspired by Cyrilla (on one of our silly season threads), I myself am on the sherry. Must've had more than I thought because instead of the "I agree" icon I just accidently used the "Nice Thread" icon. That could really have put the spanner in the works!

morton, I echo pushpull's thanks for the expanded explanation. It really helps to have some context to understand where you're coming from and can help dispel the idea that there is a "hidden agenda" or a snap judgment that folks have been reacting to. If you can provide that upfront with future contributions and questions, that would be great.

The issue of post Grade 8 adult education is a very valid one. I hope that one day I will be in a position to benefit too, and hope there will be space for sensible discussion on it. We should probably expect a bit less participation, through, since for obvious reasons there are more people active at the lower levels. I myself find that quite refreshing. For more concentrated professional information and discussion there are other places to go. For instance, the IDRS Forum for double reeds. Having said that, for my current level I feel I get quite enough very good advice here for now. Soon enough one identifies who the really knowledgeable contributors and even look out for their posts.

So it's important to remember that since this is an open Forum catering to a whole wide of needs and musically interested people, there are bound to be subjects that you/me/we will be bored by. The answer is just to ignore them - other people need them. Being an ABRSM Forum and with an exam session just over it's quite normal a lot of students want to talk about how they did and what they will do next. I expect it'll die down again soon.

So... *sherry in hand*... here's to an end to some of the recent unpleasantness and back to some interesting discussions...

Cheers to that Katica (wine in hand here_)

Hear hear - and I raise my glass of port to chink with your sherry

Looking forward to some interesting discussions too...cheers!

I don't know whether people do join groups in order to do concerts. Where I live at least it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to join a group which didn't do concerts. That's what happens. Bands, orchestras, choirs meet mostly to enjoy playing/singing together but it pretty well always involves at least 2 or 3 local concerts a year.


So are you only interested in keeping adults playing who have previously attained such a high level?
Your earlier paragraph had me thinking you were looking to encourage those new to music in which case you aren't in need of teachers/courses at FRSM level.