I have a bit of a dilema with one of my pupils. 5 year old boy (soon to be 6), learning since last July. This is indeed very young but he has surprised me with how easily he picks things up and often has fun playing. His parents are very supportive and not pushy at all. All sounds good, however.....

Last few times I have been round he has refused to sit at the piano and needs cajouled to sit down and show what he has practised. Last lesson he was visibly upset and even refused to do as I asked for about 5 minutes, leading to his Dad removing him and giving a talking to (yes, sounds like a typical child being forced to have piano lessons). Then he plays his pieces brilliantly with a smile on his face. He has also raced through Lina Ng first theory book. I am told he is not so stroppy when practising, is clearly very bright, and always finishes the lesson buzzing (that's what music does to you ), so why all the carry on every time I arrive? He also has his lesson at 7pm which sounds late for a 5 year old and I have raised this already, but his parents don't think it makes any difference.

Ideas anyone? I would feel bad stopping his lessons when he is obviously very musical, but don't want to put him off either. Could he be too young to understand WHY he is having lessons even if very able? Is he just pushing buttons like some kids like to do? Or should I change my approach.?

He's young and the behaviour in some ways is typical of children his age. I had a theory when my eldest was young that sometimes her ability outstripped her maturity developmentally. She presented as able due to advanced reading skills, she wasn't a child genius and her piers did catch up.

the important thing is to find a way to break the cycle. Perhaps do something away from the piano initially and then trick him into getting on the stool. If you can manage an element of surprise you may find he stops acting up.

I'd definately try things before you stop lessons.

I think 7 pm is too late for a 5 year old. He should be well on his way to bed not having to tackle something that is mentally very demanding. Is there any way you can move his lesson to a more suitable time?

Easily, but this is what his parents asked for. They must have reasons for it.

I totally agree, neither of mine would have coped at that age. The youngest would keep going until she dropped but wouldn't have been able to concentrate for too long.

Could you ask if you could give him a couple of lessons at an earlier time to see if it would make any difference? Presumably the 7pm slot suits the parents, but it is far too late for a 5-year-old. Saturday morning perhaps?

I wonder why they are insisting on 7pm - this sounds like a time that suits them (perhaps when they are home from work, and have finished their evening meal..?) rather than what is best for the child. I think the point about ability outstripping emotional and behavioural maturity is a very valid one. My 10 year old behaves in much the same way, and is similarly tired and fractious by 7pm. Obviously you have to defer to the parents to some extent, but if in your professional opinion the lessons aren't working, then you owe it to the child to be more assertive and suggest at least trying a different lesson time.

If it doesn't work, there probably wouldn't be any harm in taking a short break, say a few months, and trying again when he is a little older (although, to be honest, the parents may well segue straight to a different teacher).

My youngest is the same - never admits she is tired but you can tell because she becomes increasingly contrary and is increasingly reluctant to sit still (or even sit down at all).

Like the other posters I would suggest an earlier time.

Is his dad there during the lessons? Could he feel under too much pressure to behave and perform? You don't know what the conversation has been like on the journey to the lesson. It just might all be too much, emotionally, for him. As well as changing the time, you could try suggesting that dad leaves.

I completely agree about the time of day being wrong. He's had a full day at school followed by who knows what, until a time that suits the parents. I teach my younger ones straight after school (making sure they've had a drink and a biscuit on the way over to me!). I won't teach that age after 5.30.
His parents may think it's ok as he's still up at that time or is still careering round the house physically, but his brain will certainly be shot for the day by then.

I totally agree with the above comments regarding the time of day.

Apart from that, this habit of not cooperating at the start of the lesson - I sometimes think little ones can get stuck with stuff like that - they just don't know how to climb down from the stance they have taken! I'd suggest that you don't bother sitting down at all at first - which diffuses the stand-off. Often when we are doing some improvising together we push the seats back and stand up. Pupils seem to find it quite exciting! A favourite improv is the Black Note Busk from the Jane Sebba Abracadabra book 2 - the teacher part is like a slightly more sophisticated Heart and Soul and the pupils play anything they like, so long as it's on the black notes. It always sounds good and the teacher can vary the pace and style easily.

Another thing that they like is when I put pages on the floor that represent CDEFG and we have to step from note to note singing them. Then they step a series of notes which I have to sing back and we swop and I do the same for them. I got that idea from the forum - except whoever it was said they put tape on the floor. Good for developing aural skills.

I hope you can find a way around the problem as he sounds like a rewarding pupil.

I agree that the time slot is a bad one. Using different tactics before sitting down are good ideas, Susan Paradis has some brilliant games for young ones on her website. You need to be frank with the parents too before you carry on with the status quo, something along the lines, he is doing well, but this time slot is not beneficial to him and it is stressful for me too. He would do better at an earlier time. Good luck!

If you can't change the time slot, you can't, and it's not necessarily the problem.

Personally, I find that time not too bad - the child has had time to 'chill out' after school, have a break, presumably they've eaten (??? - worth checking . . ). Lots around here don't go to bed until 8.30 or so and it's not a problem.

I agree with Dulciana - if the father always sits in on the lesson, I'd think of changing that - I know it depends on the child and parent but I don't think it's ideal.

Good suggestion. I have a six-year-old boy pupil who was slightly difficult to handle for a while. He comes in the mid-afternoon and a parent doesn't come in with him, so neither of these was the problem. I don't know what the issue was, except that I agree with the second sentence above. Things improved hugely, though, once the pupil before him changed to a new pupil - a slightly older girl beginner. She was a minute or two late leaving, and he was a minute or two early arriving, and the rapport was good. Maybe he felt good being younger, but ahead, or maybe he just likes this girl and doesn't want to appear like an immature little boy - I don't know! But the difficult few moments at the beginning of each lesson have dissipated now.

From your opening post it sounds as though you go to your pupil's house. Would it be possible to get the lessons changed so that they come to your house. On your territory the child might not behave like this, whereas on his own territory he may feel he can. Also agree that 7pm is a bit late.

I think an 8.30 bedtime is typical of France and not so typical of England. French people always thought my children went to bed too early.

I completely missed the fact that you go to him rather than vice versa,so my last post won't be much help!

It is presumably the time which suits them. I am constantly horrified these days at parents' idea of children's bedtimes!

But all children are different. Our youngest gets by on less sleep per night than I do (he's 12) and always has done. Our eldest (14) needs ten hours. I suggest that the parents probably know what's best for their child than a group of people on the internets who haven't met the child (absent the OP, of course).

However, the boy's behaviour sounds to me like a classic case of an intelligent child attempting to exert some control over his life. Our youngest (not musical but frighteningly bright) will happily do his homework, but only on his terms, not ours. The trick is to convince him that doing homework was his idea, not ours. Our eldest (very musical and nearly as bright) will willingly comply with any reasonably worded reasonable request. They've been chalk and cheese since birth, putting me firmly in the Nature rather than Nurture camp.

Edward

I understand that but children of 8 and 9 going to bed regularly at midnight and later is the sort of thing I'm thinking of...not necessarily the case here, but even 7pm to start having a lesson for a 5 year old seems late.

I am not a teacher but I suspect the issue is the time. Everyone I know who has ever had piano lessons myself included prefer to have them in the morning or in the daytime. Kids instantly turn irritable in the evening, so do some adults

It has been proven scientifically over and over

Good luck convincing the parents

Well I teach from 4.30 when some schools end - on the whole here it is 5 o'clock- until 8.15 in the evening. My pupils, like most, I think, can't have lessons in the daytime because they are at school. I couldn't possibly fit them all in if I didn't teach in the evening.

I don't think the fact that children may or may not be irritable in the evening has been scientifically proved. Here in France there is an ongoing dabate about children's rhythms. No matter what the school time table is someone always finds a "scientific" justification for changing it for something else - and then immediately someone else scientifically justifies changing it back!

Hours of work, hours of daylight etc are different all over the world - take the siesta society for example where the rhythms of work and relaxation are totally different from in northern Europe.

I think it depends on the particular circumstances. I have two pupils who come to me refreshed and vigorous after an afternoon's sport and one who does the same sporting activities on another day and always arrives exhausted. There are no hard and fast rules.

I think young children often just go through phases when they don't want to or simply can't cooperate. The way to deal with it is often just to be very firm and to do everything one can to make the activity in question varied and enjoyable. One need heaps of patience and the ability to not get frustrated if progress is slow or non existant for a while. It usually picks up again. I think lots of good practical advice has been given above.