I've always had really bad shoulder/neck ache when playing a lot - usually when i go on courses and play all day every day, i'm in agony and get to the point where i can't physically play.
It's come back over the last few days and im so frustrated
I know whats causing it - i'm lifting my left shoulder up really high to make my violin reach my chin. The problem is - i cant not do that! I drop my shoulder and it just won't stay there or i just can't play, my violin doesn't reach my chin and isn't secure at all.
All my teacher says is 'stop tensing' or 'you have to stop lifting your shoulder' but i really can't!
I swear i've tried every chin rest and shoulder rest under the sun - not literally, but i have quite a collection! I'm going back to the violin shop this week yet again to try some more chin rest/shoulder rest combinations
I've just done only about 50 mins practise and i'm in agony... same as yesterday only it's worse. It really affects my playing too - my vibrato is horrible and tight and fast because my whole shoulder and arm is tensed up because of my shoulder being raised... The longer i play, the worse my playing and vibrato get and the more uncomfortable it feels to play.

I'm so worried, i've had this problem for years and it did ease but now it's back. I'm supposed to be going to music college in september but how will i play with this stupid pain. I'm actually getting so scared that it'll never be fixed and i'll never be a violinist

Just a thought (and I spotted you had tried almost every chinrest) but ... there are some pretty tall chinrests eg

here

I believe Anne-Sophie Mutter uses this without shoulder rest and no cloths etc (I know some people without shoulder rests use shoulder pads etc)

I also notice this new one
here

Have you already tried a cloth/folded table napkin over the end of the violin?

The wolf secondo rest can be made very high (if you have not got this one already)?

awww ffliwt

I'm so sorry you're in pain. I've noticed I do exactly the same thing - just tonight I was thinking I might try and raise my shoulder rest a bit because it was sliding forward with the way I was gripping it. I was clenching my teeth and gripping my viola with my shoulder and chin far too tightly. After a while I started to relax because I was concentrating on something else. I am also constantly shifting my viola around on my shoulder to find a comfortable place to make all the reaches I need for my 4th finger.. but that tightens everything so much my vibrato suffers too.

I have ordered a flesch chinrest - the one that sits centrally over the tailpiece and when I go to the violin shop next month I'm going to try some different shoulder rests.... so you're ahead of me there on things to try.

I get spasms in my neck where I already have an old orthopaedic injury: one of my vertebrae has been rotated from impact in a car accident. Sometimes this presses on the nerve in my neck and is very painful. The tension from viola playing also causes a neuralgia-type pain up my neck and the side of my face too.

Anyway, the reason I'm telling you all this is because the next thing I am going to try is a physiotherapist who specializes in deep muscle massage. She treats my husband for his mountaineering injuries. I'm going to take her a copy of the x-ray of my neck and also my viola so I can show her where the tensions occur and she can both treat and advise.

It might be worth trying to find a sports physio as your next step. I'm expecting to see her a couple of times so she can release the tension with the massage and give me pointers for reducing the stress-build up in the first place. Like you, I need to STOP tightening up that shoulder!!

However, although I only play from 30mins to an hour a day I also suffer tension in my right arm and wrist from painting too. When I join the orchestra next month I will play for a couple of hours once a week too so I need to sort these things out.

Which music college are you going to? Why not try calling them now and asking if they know of anyone who deals with physical injuries in musicians - I'm sure they're familiar with the problems! You do need to get this sorted out now if you're looking at spending your life playing.

The other thing I do is a little light meditation based on relaxing muscles all over my body. The pain from my neck injury was so severe that I had to take heavy painkillers that made me very groggy. Most of the time I couldn't face being so groggy so I needed to fine existential ways of dealing with the pain... and meditation and relaxation really helped.

Good luck - let us know how you get on


Edited to say:

I don't know where you are but I found this site http://www.musicianshealth.co.uk/services.html

and this http://www.edphysio.com/physio.10.php

Perhaps there's something like this near you?

Thanks for the advice guys!
Lottie - i clench my teeth/jaw too! I literally get pain everywhere from tensing, vibrato is particuarly painful. But the tensing is in order to hold my violin securely. =/ I'm going to Birmingham conservatoire, i have a consultation lesson in a few weeks so maybe i should mention it then The physio sounds like a good idea - i'm an ex-gymnast so i have many contacts in the sports injury area

Jacobi i've tried the SAS one but not the Flesch one. One thing i haven't tried is a central chinrest so i may try that.
I think i may have to resort to a Bonmusica rest!
I'd love to be able to play without a shoulder rest

I'll try a cloth over my chinrest - i've tried one on and off in the past but never really stuck to it, i wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not! I actually bought a nice soft duster type thing today with the intention of trying it over my chinrest

I also clench my teeth when I play and this is giving me a few problems, but until just now I didn't realise anyone esle did this, so am taking a bit of comfort here. I also seem to get my tongue kind of stuck to the roof of my mouth (all this concentration) and now my gums are starting to bleeed occasionally, which sounds pretty disgusting, so please forgive me for bringing it up here.

What I really wanted to say was that I use a Bonmusica shoulder rest and think it's terrific - I've tried others (purely because they fit more easily into my case) but always come back to the Bonmusica which gives loads of support and is so pliable. It's definitely worth a try!

And I use a central chinrest - a Wittner anti-allergenic one, not the most beautiful, but smooth edged and very light, so doesn't add muich weight to my violin.

I often play with a cloth over my chinrest. I find that if my shoulder rest is the right height in terms of shoulder-violin=collar bone dimensions then there is too big a gap between the violin and my chin (which then means I have to scrunch/crick my neck to hold the violin, and that gets painful and also seems to make vibrato harder). The only problem is that the cloth makes things a little bit slippy if you have a tendancy to move a lot while you play, and I do sometimes catch myself gripping a bit. My teacher has suggested that I buy some cork to put between the violin and the chinrest (I probably need an extra 4-5mm of height, which might not sound a lot but does make a difference), but I don't know where to get cork from...

Another thing which has occured to me is whether you could make your own shoulder rest from sponge. I'm not talking about just putting a sponge under your violin, but rather about shaping one yourself out of firmer sponge so that it's exactly the shape and size you need.

ffliwt, can you pm me your phone number and what time/day I can call you? there is too much to say on here or on a pm but I KNOW EXACTLY what you are going through and I might have answers for you.

Ffliwt,

Do you know who your teacher will be at the Conservatoire? I can't remember if you're a violin or a viola, but Robin Ireland, the senior viola tutor, is a bit of a specialist at sorting out your sort of issues. They also have Alexander Teachers there, which may be a very good thing for you.

I expect you're putting quite a bit of pressure on yourself about your playing, and I'm tempted to suggest that you play some really easy stuff, without caring how you hold your instrument. But - it's absolutely not my place to give specific advice when I haven't met you!

Lots of spot-on advice already, but can I also add that sucking (or even lightly chewing) a sweet often helps to relax jaw-clenching?

Thankyou all so much for your help
KTviola - i'm a violinist, but i dont know who my teacher there will be yet. I'm not sure if the teacher we get a consultation lesson is the teacher we're going to have either, but no harm in mentioning it to them. I'm glad you say they have Alexander technique there, something i'm very interested in trying!
Jojo, i'm very intruigued! I'll pm you now
Minstrel, i'll try that!

I'd second trying some Alexander Technique. I know it's not the same but my cello playing son was getting too tense (A level stress) which led to problems when playing his cello. After a couple of sessions with an Alexander Teacher he became much more aware of what he was doing and it's made a big difference. He's still visiting the teacher every few weeks to make sure he keeps ontop of things. I think the think which has helped him is that his Alexander Teacher works a lot with musicians so understands them well.

I use a Bon Muisca and find it fantastic - no clenching or clamping. The shop I got it from said they are often used by people with neck problems - so might be worth a try.


As for cork you could try a box end of wall or floor tiles - a couple of quid. Or you could use shoe in-soles - you know like odor eaters but without "active charcoal".

Alexander Technique is GREAT I also highly recommend it, I have been having weekly lessons now for maybe just over 6 months but I have to give a warning:
having heard so many people raving how they got results after just a few sessions I was extremely disappointed when I wasn't feeling any benefits after 'just a few sessions' but I kept going, it is only JUST NOW that I am beginning to feel the benefits and it's been OVER SIX MONTHS of regular weekly sessions with a top notch teacher!
so what I am saying is: go with an open mind and don't expect this or the other just trust your teacher, follow his/her advice and go with it! the rest will come.....

as for the BonMusica shoulder rest being recommended for people with 'neck problems' or people with long necks....., I think that at the end of the day is whatever suits you will suit you end of the story, I had neck problems, I used a BonMusica shoulder rest for a year, thought it was helping but it did not, I actually found out that it was actually helping my pain to come/stay!

If you know who you will be getting next year, how about arranging a couple of extra consultation lessons now - professors are very used to having to help with setups and posture when students start at conservatoire. As you know what you want to try to sort out and get advice about, that would be a great start for a lesson. I know that consults don't come cheap but it could be a very worthwhile investment, as well as giving you a great start before September.

edit - just seen your earlier post about not knowing your tutor - still worth getting in touch though, they are there to help and will want to help you get the most out of your playing.

Years ago I had similar problems and tried a variety of chin rests and shoulder rests. What worked for me was a (nearly) central chin rest called a 'mushroom' from Alexander Accessories The edges are rounder than on a Flesch and I just find it soooo comfortable. That site also offers a similar 'Alexander' which may be a little higher.

For a shoulder rest I use a Kun 2 which I was easily able to bend a little to fit me properly. I also like the Play-on-air but for some reason my bowing arm then gets tired.

You will be able to fix this but it will take time and experimenting - good luck!

I think clarinet people sometimes need cork? Maybe that is a source of cork?

Clarinet people are a source of cork?
You learn something every day

Well their clarinets anyhow!

You need cork and you're in pain?...

Drink lots of bottles of wine!

Sorry, I know this isn't at all helpful!

I like your style

[quote name='jojo' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:58 PM' post='1021087']
Alexander Technique is GREAT I also highly recommend it, I have been having weekly lessons now for maybe just over 6 months but I have to give a warning:
having heard so many people raving how they got results after just a few sessions I was extremely disappointed when I wasn't feeling any benefits after 'just a few sessions' but I kept going, it is only JUST NOW that I am beginning to feel the benefits and it's been OVER SIX MONTHS of regular weekly sessions with a top notch teacher!
so what I am saying is: go with an open mind and don't expect this or the other just trust your teacher, follow his/her advice and go with it! the rest will come.....

Jojo if I hadn't been in the first two sessions the Alexander teacher had with my son I wouldn't have believed the change it made and so quickly too. Apart from helping him to become a more relaxed player and improving the slouchy teenage posture my son's already beautiful sound opened out more. The man worked miracles with him. I think it helped that the teacher observed him playing his cello to see what the issues were there. Each session has some normal Alexander work and then some work applying it to my son playing his cello. I think it also helps that he knows and understands musicians.

Thank you Stringmum.
I don't doubt for a minute that some people get benefits after a couple of sessions, I was just advising not to give up with AT 'if' just like me Ffliwt does not see or feel benefits quickly enough, that she will 'eventually'. Like I've said it took me six months to really start to feel a REAL difference and I go to a very good and pretty famous teacher too... We do work with the violin and without (although initially it was without). Maybe I'm not a very good or perceptive pupil but I honestly started feeling the real benefits after six months, before that it was very subtle I am not totally sure if and what was going on....