I read in the Independent today that one in four councils have issued redundancies to music teachers, presumably peripatatic, not classroom teachers!

Has anyone on here any experience if this, and will it mean more work for private teachers? I hope so. I have lost so many pupils because of schemes run by the council here in Tavistock!

Interesting, I'm wondering if now is the time to get in touch with local primaries?

Seriously, though, that's pretty bad for peris! I too am a private teacher - there is very little peri work available round here. There will be a lot of out of work music teachers - Not good for anyone!

And you know what will happen next - it comes round every couple of years without fail:
A news report on why there is such a shortage of music teachers!

("Because there's such a shortage of music teachers' jobs, dumbo!" I always found myself shouting)

Depends what instruments you teach. There's always a waiting list for piano or sax lessons.

Well...it depends where you are as to whether there are enough or too many teachers to go round.

I understand that our local County Music Service is facing devastating cuts .... someone told me that teachers have been told to approach their schools direct in the hope they re-employ them on a freelance basis ..... Not seen anything 'official' though ....

Not where I live. I have no waiting list and neither have my colleagues. Enquiries are only occasional.

York are scrapping peri teaching and just doing Wider Opportunities.

That sounds pretty stupid - what's the point of doing Wider Opportunities if there are no opportunities to carry on afterwards?

Chris

Yup!
Redundancy warning letters already issued from my local council
And of course, the first kids to lose out will be the less well off, and music lessons become elitist again..

Firstly, may I say that there are some fantastic peris out there (and particularly on these forums), so don't all shoot me down!

But, I'm afraid that my experience of pupils who've come from peris where we've lived in the past, has been extremely poor. In fact, in many cases, for what parents were paying for a 20 minute shared lesson in school, they could have had a 45 minute high-quality individual lesson on a private basis, so to say that it will be the poorest who lose out first, is, in my view, too simplistic.

In the past, my experience was that the music service existed to provide those who wanted to with the means to take instrumental/vocal lessons, and possibly to participate in bands, choirs and orchestras. I'm not so sure this is any longer the case; a significant amount of resources are now diverted to schemes such as the Wider Opps which aims to give everyone the chance of learning an instrument. I know many school-age children who've lost out on a decent tuition service because funds and resources have been pushed in other directions, the attitude being that why should they be privileged to get their lessons, when others don't have the opportunity.

In my view, there is actually no reason for music services to close. What is needed is a re-evaluation of their purpose. So far as I can see, their original purpose was not to deliver schemes such as the Wider Opps - surely it's a case of getting back to basics?

Obviously, I don't want to see any peri lose their job amidst these cuts; but I think it's too easy to blame it entirely on current government cuts (and I see every day how easy it is for businesses and organisations to jump on this current bandwagon). The local music service where we used to live has been struggling along with poor leadership, inadequate teaching, and terrible financial management for at least 12 years. In many cases, parents have simply been ripped off with the service provided. Children, schools and peris in that area would get significantly more value by going private.

Is this York or North Yorkshire? Both sons are taught by North Yorks peris and I haven't heard a peep yet to say that lessons are going to be scrapped.

And I have to say I think the Wider Opps stuff is pretty pointless - no real teaching appears to go on (how could it in a class of 30 on mixed instruments with 1 teacher??).

I've just stopped working as a peri and I'm not convinced I will be back in a school any time soon. The difficulties just seemed to get worse as time went on. With all the pressures put on teachers to meet targets, extra curricular activities and demands on space it was a times really quite difficult to get enough lessons in. I get the impression many peris just bill for lessons whether or not the student turns up and I can understand why. I found it difficult however to bill a student when I knew they could not have attended a lesson due to other demands on their time.

I worked briefly for a County Music Service and they charged considerably more for lessons than I charge privately. I seemed to be far more successful recruiting and retaining pupils privately than they were through the school. All this makes me think, like S_G, that some re-evaluation is necessary if they want to survive.

..

It's York. No changes in North Yorkshire yet, as far as I know. We gave up on peris after a not very good first teacher for one of the boys (a very well known musician - nice chap but hopeless teacher). His next teacher used to say polite things like, 'Did your last teacher REALLY tell you to do it like that?' or, 'Well, you can do that, but it's a bit old fashioned' (which I think was a polite way of saying completely wrong!). Our local wind teacher is simialrly very nice, and runs a great band, but about half his pupils fail their exams, which is awful.

My youngest's cello teacher used to be a peri locally but was fed up with the lack of organisation. She's an excellent teacher and the authority she now works for are very lucky to have her (as are we, as she lives just down the road).

Our boys go to music centre in a different local authority from where we live. They have said they have funding until Easter and then anything could happen.

I have been shocked by the poor quality tuition my children have had from peris, and when I discovered that the teacher was being paid slightly less than I charge, but I was paying almost double that to the music service I wondered what on earth the music service is for.

However, my children had a great experience with wider ops, learning the violin for two years. Yes, they made slow progress and sometimes got frustrated by this, but the teaching was EXCELLENT. But then again, I suspect that particular teacher is one in a million. There is no way I could do what he does. (even if I could play the violin!)

In my area the cost of peris provided by the music service has become ridiculous - ?32 per hour, which is what the music service charges the schools.

This means ten half hour individual lessons for ?160 a term, or 10 shared lessons for ?80 a term. Or for a group of three - ?53 a term each. So this works out at ?32 an hour for an individual lesson, ?16 an hour for a shared lesson or ?10.60 an hour for a lesson shared three ways. The teacher sees about ?22 of this ?32. Where does the other ?10 go? To the music centre which provides a weekly orchestra and choir, plus loaned instruments when the need is there. Anything else left over must go into admin costs otherwise I don't understand why they have to charge quite so much.

It's now cheaper for budding instrumentalists to take private lessons (generally between ?22 and ?25 an hour) so there's little advantage in having lessons at school these days, considering the lesson time lost. It's certainly back to where it was before - the preserve of the better off.

Wider Opportunities can only work where the teacher is very experienced and skilled at teaching a musical instrument to a large group - otherwise it's probably pretty much a waste of time. And what happens to the kids who really enjoy the instrument and their parents can't afford to pay for lessons once Wider Opportunities has stopped? A taste of something good and then it's just snatched away again...

I'm afraid I too have a low opinion of the local schools music service. They charge a huge profit on shared lessons with teachers who are not necessarily qualified (or able) on the instrument they teach. They use the system whereby someone who plays the oboe gets to teach flute/sax/clarinet because it's all woodwind.

If the music centres fall victim to the cuts as well then that will leave a major gap which the private sector is unlikely to fill. As far as I am aware there are no ensembles in this area which would do what music centres do and at a time of day when younger kids can attend. Fingers crossed....

I know some children who did clarinet through wider ops.
If they ever get a teacher they are going to have to change just about everything.

The big bonus of our Music Service is all the ensembles they offer. Without these there would be no group music provision in our area. Everyone is encouraged and welcome ot participate in the after school ensembles.

They must be doing something right with Wider Opps as the beginner groups are filling up with children who started this way and being part of an ensemble is a great way to encourage them to continue.

I know there have also been some concerns about funding but I wouldn't think it was due to poor management. The standard of teaching can be a bit of a lottery but I get the impression that it's the same in other organisations. Though it's probably more easily identified when the peri isn't a specialist of the instrument they are teaching.

I don't know the financial details but I can never see why funding is such a problem as in many authorities lessons and music centres are paid for in full. As others have said, the peri lessons we used to have were more expensive than private lessons. We also pay quite a lot for music centre, enough, I'd have thought, to cover the basic costs, so where does all the funding need to go? I recognise that there is admin and so on, hire of music and preparation but it's not as if everything were provided for nothing.

In some authorities lots of things are still provided free, including group ( 3s or 4s, not whole class) lessons. Where we lived in Scotland pupils were assessed for aptitude and if chosen got their lesson free, but there was no option to learn in school and pay for it, which I thought was a bit odd. They also had strict rules about ages, so you could learn the violin at 8 (if selected) but couldn't learn a wind instrument until 11.

That sounds worrying. Two of my best little pianists are having flute lessons at school. I hope they're being taught well......

It is now a good 6 years ago when I enquired for music lessons for my son at school but back then my experience was the same as violinia, it was CHEAPER to have private lessons.

Not sure, but I think part of the issue may be variations in take-up of lessons. Unless the peri is only ever paid for the hours they are actually teaching (rather than being salaried) then it won't necessarily be the case that the amount paid by parents covers the full cost of employing the teacher [and remember that there are also other costs such as pension contributions and travel costs to be met on top of salary]. Plus there are also the discounted lesson rates where parents are on benefits, or where the student is doing a music performance element for GCSE - I suspect a chunk of the funding goes towards that kind of subsidy.

When my daughter did GCSE music she didn't get any discounted lessons at all. I don't thik it's the Music Service that gives these, I suspect it's the school.

I don't know about cheaper. I suppose it depends on how you define 'cheap/-er'.
In the area where I live it is certainly BETTER VALUE to have individual private lessons provided you are sure of having a good teacher. The peripatetic instrumental teaching service has never been VERY good and over the years it has degenerated into a virtual 'non-service'. At its best it was inadequate with students being taught in groups and only twenty minute sessions. No one can learn much in that time, let alone make any progress.

Round here the peri lessons cost the same as our private piano lessons. They look cheaper because you get less time and they can be group lessons. But the half hour charge for an individual lesson is the same. Except that our private lessons actually last half an hour whereas time was often lost at school through our son forgetting to go to his lesson or the teacher having to leave early because he didn't have enough time scheduled to get to the next school!

You get a free peri lesson paid for by the local authority in our area if you're doing GCSE. Neither of ours got theirs as we'd given up on peris by then. One of them wanted singing lessons but the singing teacher couldn't fit him in.

I'm in two minds about people on benefits getting cheap lessons. On the one hand I'm all in favour of every child getting the chance to learn but some of the people I know who are on qualifying benefits run two cars and have foreign holidays. People who save so that they don't get the right benefits when they're made redundant (yes, I mean us!) get nothing.

As someone on income-related benefits myself I'd really like to know how they manage that! There's no way on earth I could afford one car, let alone two, and I haven't had a holiday (foreign or otherwise) since being on benefits. Also I was unaware that children of parents on income-related benefits could get free or subsidised peri lessons, I've never heard of that, so I also suspect that's a decision made by the school rather than the Music Service.

Peris at my school were cheaper than private lessons, but then private lessons where I grew up are about ?10 an hour more than where I live now (which are more expensive than the peri lessons, but only by a pound or two an hour).

I've never come across free or subsidised school music lessons either.

Daughters primary school offered free group lessons, but that may have changed now, one of the high schools subsidises lessons but it's a performing arts college. The music service only offers free lessons on endangered instruments as far as I know.

our music service offers subsidised lessons at primary school level, but in the schools in less well off parts of the County they are completely free. For families on benefits the lessons are free in all the primary schools, and they can join the music centre orchestras free too.

Families on some benefits get a very subsidised rate. GCSE students get a free group (3 or 4, not whole class) lesson. This our local authority's current set up.

I have a friend who is entitled to housing benefit as she's divorced and only works part time plus gets a bit of money from her ex. They have a property each and each have a car. I resent subsidising her lifestyle. Sorry, that's copletely off topic but I hate the way the benefit system works. It seems to reward all the wrong things.

The problem is that we live in a society where we can't all do what we want to do - I know we don't like it like that and think it's unfair, but that's the way it is - I cannot see it changing - society has always been like that. You can have all the schemes and initiatives in the world - they might make a small difference to a few, but there will always be a far greater number who will have who we still define as 'losing out'.

Wider Opps works to a point - it offers the majority a taster of learning an instrument, including those who wouldn't be able to afford individual lessons; but, we know too well that there comes a point where those who are interested will need to have more specialist tuition: wider opps may be free, but individual tuition usually costs. In some ways, are we actually doing a lot of childen a disservice by giving them a taster of something which we know, in reality, they may not be able to afford to take further?

I agree, it does seem at best pointless and at worst something akin to dangling cakes in front of diabetics. It is similar to primary schools teaching Mandarin and Arabic - a very worthwhile endeavour which will benefit the children involved, but very, very few secondary schools teach these languages (although quite a few universities do) so almost all of them won't be able to continue studying the language in school past age 11, and will often have limited or no opportunities to maintain their language skills outside the classroom. For any real benefit to be derived, we need the possibility of continuity, which Wider Opps alone does not offer.

I do agree with you SG. I swing from one side to the other with this. I guess because I love my subject, I wish all could have the chance to take part . Plus I have always hated people saying music is elitist or the soft option in schools.
I have also seen music do wonders for problem children.

I'm about to get an insight first-hand into the Wider Opps programme, since the Wider Opps lessons happening in son no.2's class at school have switched to my day off, and I've offered (being a governor at the school) to go in and assist.

Since, according to son no.2, there are the following instruments being deployed:

• oboes
• alto saxophones
• violins
• keyboards
• trumpets
• clarinets

- so a really lovely mixture of C, Bb and Eb instruments - I'm glad I won't be the one trying to decide what music on earth you could possibly play which will be "easy" for every child to master...

I fear some transposition issues may prevail...

For all those who doubt the value of Wider Opps, I only started learning the violin at primary school because the London borough where we lived ran it's own scheme whereby everyone in first year juniors (year 3 now) did a whole class aural screening test and all those reaching a threshold level (about 3/4 of the class, I seem to remember) was allocated free group lessons on an orchestral instrument, depending on preference and availability. Instruments were provided and, as a result, London schools and boroughs had an enviable record of running large groups of fantastic standards and producing many potential musicians. Several of my friends and collegues, like me, would be in completely different lives now had we not had that opportunity at school.

After a year (when my teacher had exhausted the possibility of teaching me and another musical friend in a group of 6 ) we were 'upgraded' to a paired lesson for another year before getting fully funded individual lessons in the last two years of primary school. All this, plus school orchestra and, after a couple of years, borough music centre every Saturday morning, all for free.

I wish it was so easy for me now as parent of musical children!

(goodness knows what those labelled 'unmusical' did though - one downside, I suppose)

I've never really understood this as every peri I know also teaches privately and I'm sure they don't alter their standard of teaching depending on whether they're working in a school or music service or in someone's home!

Agreed, and that's probably the case for the handful of peris I know who also teach privately - the trouble is, most of the peris I've come across don't teach privately; but, I realise it's different all over the country.

Peris teaching at home will almost always offer the length and type of lesson they find works for their pupils, but their hands are more tied in schools. For example, my private pupils get a total of 27 hours of tuition per year, whereas my school pupils get only 15 hours. The difference would be even greater if my school lessons were 20 minute shared lessons rather than 30 minute one-to-one lessons.

Added to which you can be chasing pupils who forget to attend, working around inset days and school trips and, importantly, you tend to have much less contact with parents. Indirectly I think all this can reduce the effectiveness of the tuition, if not the standard.

It was much the same where I grew up. And the county level ensembles were tremendously good, as were the number of excellent musicians at my secondary school. I suppose the downside was that some pupils who would have been good candidates didn't pass the aptitude test for whatever reason, and some parents weren't very supportive because everything was free, but overall it produced a lot of competent musicians, far, far more than there are in our area now.

We give up a lot to be able to afford music lessons. Now I know you have to have the money in the first place in order to be able to choose what to spend it on, but lots of people I know who 'can't afford' music lessons actually just don't want to. Nor do they want to be bothered with helping their children practise. But tjat's their choice. I wish they'd be honest though!

Saxophile, they had a similar thing at the local primary. It was awful. I think I've mentioned before the child grasping his violin bow, hairs and all, halfway down the stick, and the cellist with her spike still in while she played. They had Wider Opps for a year and enjoyed it but I don't think a single one has carried on with lessons. I can't help feeling the money would be better being targetted at proper lessons for a few committed children, however unfair to the others that might be.

A little girl I know learnt the flute using a 'band' method which meant she had to start with a very odd collection of notes in order to fit with the clarinets and saxes in her group lesson. She was completely confuseed, made no progress and gave up after a couple of terms. She's a bright girl and would probably have done well learning individually or with other flautists using a more traditional approach.

Yes, that's true. There are all sorts of obstacles in a school which can have an adverse effect on instrumental lessons.

Gosh, I've really opened a can of worms, haven't I!

We have wider ops around here in Tavistock, but it's given a different name, which off hand I can't remember!

I had a seven year old girl come to me under this scheme as she wanted to learn the violin. Each child is allowed three hundred pounds worth of taster lessons or classes in anything they choose, provided they are in receipt of free school dinners.

Well, this girl's parents chose to split the allowance between violin lessons and swimming lessons. So she learnt with me for a short while, then gave up because her parents couldn't afford to carry on.

The girl had real talent. Her listening skills were exceptional. She always knew when she was playing out of tune and corrected it!

So I offered to give her free fortnightly lessons, literally on my way home from work. It was nothing to me but could have seen them through a rough patch. They refused. Pride got to them. I suppose.

I was bitterly disappointed, a. to have lost a pupil and b. for her. It was such a waste, and so tantalizing all for nothing.

I don't think I agree with wider ops and I certainly won't be taking on anymore.

Another, more formal, name for Wider Opps is 'Whole Class Instrumental/Vocal Teaching' - or WCIVT - but it doesn't exactly roll of the tongue ...

I'm helping out with Wider Opps keyboard this year with 1/2 classes but that's still up to 15 in a group which has been an interesting experience. The majority of them don't have a keyboard at home so on the basis that very few of them have any opportunity to practice there's a lot of revision. Ultimately, those who aren't that interested don't learn anything, others do surprisingly well and some obviously have keyboards and do practice a bit, some have lessons either in school or elsewhere so have a tendency to be bored because it's too easy for them. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing - on the one hand, some children clearly enjoy it and would probably be unlikely to have the opportunity if it wasn't for Wopps, but on the other hand, some children clearly are not interested in learning, some are clearly frustrated if they can't keep up and some just want to mess around and make lots of noise! Another school I go to as a peri doing piano/keyboard lessons does Wider Opps with clarinet and the kids are allowed to take the clarinet home to practice. Even with this, no doubt some will actually do some practice and others will do nothing.

I'm looking at doing musicianship Kodaly style going forward in some kind of small group setting but still in early stages of working out how I might do it.

Do you mean Colourstrings, Louise?

completely off topic... but when reading this I imagined David Attenborough doing one of his voiceovers

"and now we see the majestic bassoon in its natural environment....."