How do you know if you have the right teacher?


Ok so my young one has been having solo lessons for around 8 - 9 months was recommended straight to grade 3.

Got a pass in the exam, was not given a mock before hand and only started playing accompanyed around 1 half month b4 the exam, also was not taught 3 out of last 4 weeks before exam for various reasons.

Now pupil is working on technique's not necessary grade 4 or 3 peices, (lower) was not set any new pieces this week, find this frustrating. particularly the drop in level

Techniques are improving greatly, surely if easy pieces it should at least one new piece every week. Also length of lessons seem to be getting shorter and shorter recently.

Also how important are orchestra pieces?. In the scheme of learning?. I'm pretty sure the top solo players make faster progress, If my young one is doing this I want to aim high not make up numbers.

Lastly if a teachers pupils only get passes or merits should we be looking to change?. Teacher and young one have a great rapor/friendship

Very happy with the Orchestra's and Ensemble my young one is in. Lastly if the school orchestra is to easy now, should I look for them to use the time more pro-actively and leave said school orchestra?

Also is it better to learn as much music (wide range) as possible before the exam, e.g. leave the exam for 2 years now..

Lastly should I try increase the lessons to twice a week? What age is the cut of point to be a sucessful solosit & go to a decent conservator school? I was thinking 15

I'm not sure what some of your questions are asking. Perhaps we need a little more information as in the instrument and age of the child.

Only one of our teachers has ever given a mock before the exam so not having one isn't unsual.

It's not uncommon either for students to have only one practice with the pianist before the exam and a run through on the day.

Grade 3 after 8-9 months is more doable if this isn't the child's first instrument. Whichever way a pass at grade 3 in that sort of timescale is excellent.

I don't think a new piece each week would always be a good thing. I suppose it might depend on which instrument we are talking about. I would expect my child to have pieces for several weeks, she did even in the early stages, learning how to perfect pieces is very important at every level.

Three pieces and an exam is not good longer term as there will always come a point when the standard repertoire for the instrument needs to be covered. Studies can also help build technique to strengthen playing.

There are lots of things to be learnt from playing with other people whatever the level. Grade 3 isn't very advanced, in terms of group playing, and is usually the level when ensembles get more interesting in our experience.

I don't think it's fair to blame the teacher for exam results unless you are certain they are doing something wrong. In most cases exam results reflect the students ability at that time.

Who missed the lessons in the run up to the exam? Do you get the time that you pay for? I'm assuming the lessons are private and not through school, where factors beyond the teacher's control can influnce length of lesson. Why did the child do grade 3 if they now need to go back and fill in the gaps?

I'm not saying you're wrong to have concerns only that it's really hard to judge on the information given.

my young one is now in first violin in 2 orchestra and 1 ensembles. these are around grade 3-5 standard

The school orchestra is not at the same level or quality as the other orchestra's I wonder if time could be better spent. e.g. is it a waste of time leading a basic school orchestra.

Recent pieces given are about technique (Violin) Gavotte etc grade 2 stuff. I feel it should be grade 4-5.

Have been told young one will not be learning any large pieces for a few weeks. I accept this, but why grade 2 pieces.

Young one is working on one harder solo piece grade 4-5 for one of her orchestra's.

But young one has been given extremely easy duet piece (grade 1-2) to do with another player through school, (interschool competiton) only second duet done, but why not something more challenging?. frustrated the piece is so tame and easy certainly wont get picked to go further in interschools competion with it.

Daughters technique is improving all the time, guess patience is the key.

regarding the missing lessons, no comment.

I am very pleased with teacher/pupil relationship.

Sometimes playing an easier piece allows them to focus on an aspect of technique, without worrying about reading/ learning the notes. eg with the violin (I know nothing about the violin) I imagine you might play an easy piece to work on bowing, so that you can concentrate on that rather than what the left hand is up to.

I agree with andante.

Playing pieces at the limit of your ability is extremely wearing for a student if you are doing it all the time. It's stretch, stretch, stretch and that is very stressful. Imagine a day at work which is very full and very busy and going home at the end of the day is a relief - now imagine having to do that all the time.

Going 'backwards' has some wonderful effects - the notes themselves may be easier but you can look at the other technical aspects which maybe you can't when on the 'stretch pieces' you are constantly worrying about what notes to play. Take an easy piece, great, I can play all the notes - now, how do I stop making it sound like a row of notes and start making it sound like music? There is a lot more to making music than playing 'all the right notes in the right order'.
At the level you are talking about, developing a really solid technique will pay dividends in the future. Exploring repertoire will be no bad thing at any level, since there is far more to music than just the graded syllabus pieces.

Playing pieces with another person is a different skill entirely. If you've never played a duet before, then you would probably need to start with something much easier than you could manage on your own. Again, playing with someone else brings in a new set of difficulties - keeping up with them / them keeping up with you, working out who is the 'melody' and who the 'accompaniment' at each stage of the piece, and so on. Bringing these extra things in to learn will be much easier if the notes on the page are easy enough to not need to be yet another worry and stress, i.e. if the piece is not at a stretch of your ability.

You don't say how young 'young one' is - there is a point with musical development which needs a certain age/maturity/understanding, in order to convey the meaning in the music. My teacher says he prefers working with adults and older teenagers, come the higher grades, because he can have a conversation about the piece and what it's possibly about (in his opinion; I am free to argue with him!) - these aren't things you can necessarily do with a younger child, who is able to play the notes as you tell them but not why. And they'll need to know why in order to make their own decisions at some point.

I don't think that leading the school orchestra is necessarily a waste of time. It's a different skill to playing 2nd in her other orchestras and if the music is not too challenging then she will be in a better position to make a good job of it.

Don't forget that though faster progress may appear good it can sometimes cause problems further on. It's not unusual for students of any age to need time to slow down and consolidate from time to time before pushing on. Doing this can help to ensure that firm foundations are laid.

"was not taught 3 out of last 4 weeks before exam for various reasons."

That can't have helped - something to watch next time. Guided practice in the run up to an exam is helpful especially for young ones. Happened to us once - even where all is apparently secure, things slip and start to go wrong and there's no one to put it right.

A lot of children have grade 8 at 12 or younger on the violin.

I'm really sorry Morton but I fail to see how your statement is helping to answer any of Passiflora's questions and you have to be careful as it really looks like a very well thought attempt of trying to tell Passiflora something rather not nice and to dampen down any of her enthusiasm and pride in what her daughter has achieved (am assuming Passiflora is a 'mother')

Of course if I am seeing it the 'wrong way' please accept my apologies and if you could explain it to us then it would be greatly appreciated

and your point is...?

Leading an Orchestra is good experience. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with what you describe providing the Orchestra is well managed. It's not always about taking either your daughter may be able to help others and give something back.





Firstly ensemble music listed as around grade 4-5 will be easier than solo music of that standard. There is a lot more to think about in an ensemble other than just your own part.

Maybe the other person playing the duet isn't as advanced as your daughter. I think it's a good thing to get the chance to support another player. I suspect you are concerned that they won't win when it should be about the performance opportunity and doing the best they can. When my girls danced they often weren't the strongest but won things because they performed well at their level.

The first festival I played in as a child I was 10 and my duet partner was 11. We were in the Under 15s class (only duet class?) and went to practice in the warm up room. There were a couple of huge lads in there, playing a really impressive piece and we hoped they weren't in our class. We were playing a sweet simple little duet as we had only been playing a couple of years and it sounded a far cry from their piece. We were horrified when we found they were in our class.

We won the class though. The difficulty of the piece doesn't matter, it's how you work together.

15 is a bit late for a cut off point for top conservatoires.

Why?
Surely it's standard at audition rather than standard at 12 or 15 that counts.
Grade 8 at 12 or 15 even doesn't necessarily mean that the child will continue improving nor that they will ultimately choose to study music full time post 18. Early fast progress and the effort that takes can lead a child to decide that enough is enough.

Conservatoires ask for grade 8 distinction level playing at audition at the age of 18. You don't need the piece of paper to say you have got this. I fail to see that it matters what age you have achieved this as long as you play at this level at the audition.

I believe that on audition the conservatoires try to choose the highest standard players. I believe that the reason for this is because of the amount of learning needed while at college to have the chance of reaching a very high standard. Children who have reached grade 8 at age 12 or 13 are likely to be a higher standard at age 18 than someone who has got grade 8 at 15. The competition is high for places, and it is not unusual for children to have got to grade 8 at 12 or 13.

A conservatoire will recruit according to standard at audition, potential, and to a lesser degree, musical experience gained so far. Whether the student gained grade 8 at 6 or 16 will make little difference as it is what they reckon the student is capable of NEXT that will count.

As I seem to have got this all wrong, could someone tell me how many people they know who have passed an audition for a top conservatoire ( RCM, RAM, RNCM, RSA, GSMD) with grade 8 standard at later than age 14. I would be very interested to know.

They don't necessarily ask for that. Reading from the RNCM prospectus in front of me, entry to the Undergraduate Programme requires "A high level of performing/compositional ability". Bear in mind a large number of applicants are from overseas and won't have been through the same sort of system anyway so to quote a "UK" grade equivalence doesn't make a lot of sense.

Indeed and grade 8 at 12 or 15 means nothing when it comes to the audition at 18.

This is a myth there aren't in reality that many children who get Grade 8 at 12 or 13. Infact 15 is a much more common age.. The main reason is probably down to emotional maturity and lots of instruments are difficult for younger/smaller children due to technique and/or size of instrument.

One of my daughter's teachers said something today, which someone else coincidently also said to me last week. That it doesn't really matter how good you are on your instrument the chances of making it as a soloist are very small. The important thing is to gather as many skills as you can along the way. Both of the people who commented have been through the conservatoire system and retain links with it. They are both employed in music just to clear up any potential misunderstandings.

Emmm well me??? I sat my grade 8 AFTER I was offered a place at the RSAMD at age 17....

What evidence do you have for children getting grade 8 at age under 15 being a myth?

Perhaps a better question to ask would be how many people know students who achieved Grade 8 at or earlier than 14.. I know of one who went on to be young musician of the year. From what I've seen the most common age to attain Grade 8 is 16ish. I know quite a few people who have been accepted to Conservatoire who was around 16/17 on achieving Grade 8.

When did you get to grade 8 standard though? Some people it seems wait until later to get grade 8 to make sure they get a distinction.

I am basing this on statistics from an institution where there is probably more chance of people getting G8 at a young age. Even at the local music school they don't rush people to Grade 8 sometimes holding off grades until they are really needed.


What evidence do you have of it being a fact that those getting grade 8 over 15 don't get in to conservatoires?

Did they play bassoon, double bass, harp or viola? Did they get accepted to RNCM, RCM, RNCM, RAM, RSAMD, or GSMD?

No several of them played Violin one Recorder another Sax. Obviously we know, or know, of quite a lot of people who get into one of the suggested colleges.

From experience and other teachers. Grade 8 standard, not the exam.


What standard were the violin players and where did they go?

I really don't want to get into this anymore than I have. Just take my word for it that it's very common for people to go to conservatoire at Grade 8 even having reached the standard at 16.

One last question. Did they go to the junior department of RCM, RNCM, RAM, RSAMD, or GSMD?

Brilliant!!

Yes, Morton, you have got it wrong! I know plenty of students both above and below your age 15 cut-off point that have been accepted into Conservatoire. So much depends on practical personal circumstances as well asmusical maturity and experiences at different ages. It really is all individual to each student.

The only person I know that went to RNCM got their grade 8 at about 18 without having been to junior conservatoire.

I am really fascinated by this. What did they play? Was it recently? How long had they been playing?

I don't see what is fascinating about that. There are plenty of people who post on here who seem to have similar experience.

About 10 years playing. I don't want to go into specifics as it's not me I'm talking about and I'm not happy giving someone else's biography on an open forum without permission.

Another question. Otherwise how can I learn? Were the conservatoires RCM. RAM, RNCM, RSAMD or GSMD?
How many attended the junior department of the conservatiore they got into? How many had teachers who taugnt at the conservatoire that they got into?

Morton

I have now read quite a few of your posts as you are quite an active member and I DID think that some of the replies to you were really rather harsh and even a bit personal BUT by my goodness you don't half ask for it!

You are talking gibberish on this on I'm afraid! I am a peripatetic and private instrumental teacher and know of many (ie 20+) students in the last 3 or 4 years who have reached G8 at 14/15+ and still gone on to RNCM and all the other Royal colleges you seem so fascinated by as well as Birmingham Conservatoire and the Welsh College of Music and Drama and no, they didn't all go to the junior department although some of them went to Chethams or Purcell.

Having G8 at a young age can be a definite disadvantage when auditioning - often you need to have gone "further" (Ie diploma) if you took it at a young age or be able to show what you have been doing for the last 5 or 6 years with competition results and even then sometimes that's not enough.

To go back to the OP's point - don't worry about pushing on too fast. Let young one enjoy their playing without needing to strive for the next level all the time. I say this from personal experience - my daughter is now 13 and passed her G8 with Distinction at 11. She was offered a music scholarship to a junior department and a music school. We decided against both as she was only a child who hadn't yet had chance to find out what OTHER subjects (not offered at primary school) that she might be good at. She is now in many of the county music ensembles and has been working her way up in the seating order in them - she has learnt so much from listening to the senior players and now really cherishes her position in the ensembles as she had to wait for them. Too much too soon can be so damaging.

Since you appear to be in a minority of one here, I would suggest the onus of providing evidence to back up the argument one way or another lies with you.

There is of course one element you have left out. You seem to assume that it is necessary to achieve the entry level by age 18. Not so. You can go to a conservatoire at any age. So if you're not quite there at 18 there is no harm in continuing to see if you can make the grade later. I'm sure the voice teachers will correct me if I'm talking gibberish but I believe it is quite normal for singing students in particular to start later than 18 at conservatoire.

To the OP and any other budding music students and their parents, most of the contributors to these forums (and many are highly experienced) are hugely supportive of anyone who would like to pursue a career in music.

I don't think going to JD or being taught by one of their staff gives anyone an automatic right of passage. I think they tend to be seperate enterties from what I can gather. To be honest that is only right and fair.

not me.... i got 105 in my grade 8 exam!
and i didnt go to JD or know anyone who did!!!

I would agree that it isn't fair, but I am still being told that "its not what you know but who you know" in the music world.

Who tells you these things? Do all your eccentric ideas come from the same source?

Some of the people who I have known who have done grade 8 at 14 and earlier have not been pushed. They just like playing the instrument a lot. I agree that doing nothing after this stage will not get you through a conservatoire audition. I also agree that other subjects are important. However if the parent is pushing the child an earlier cut off date is probably better and then perhaps the child will be left to enjoy their playing sooner?
Personally I don't consider it a good idea for a parent to decide the career for a child.

Your 'source' is incorrect as usual

I know a girl who went to the RCM last year having sat grade 8 bassoon in the final year of the sixth form, so she hadn't even passed it when she sat the audition. So it's the bassoon but I'm sure there are plenty of grade 8 bassonists that the RCM can pick from. If not, DS has one guaranteed career!

I am coming across more and more grade 8 violinists that are 12/13. How do kids get that good? There is no way my son could ever reach that level in bassoon in two years (a total of four years playing)! Grade 6 at a push but grade 8? I'm in awe!

Violinists often start at 3 or 4 years of age (some even younger on Suzuki) . I'm sure even your strapping lad couldn't cope with a bassoon at that age

My daughter did her first grade 8 at 14, and there was no way she was pushed. Encouraged to practice about 3 times a week on average, but she progressed quite quickly on her own. (Grade 1 after 2 terms, grade 4 the following term, then slowing to a grade every 2 to 3 terms thereafter)

Gosh, that is quick progress! I find the bassoon such a tiring instrument to learn and I don't even play it! The size, awkwardness of finding the right seated position and the blowing. If DS wants to continue after prep school then fine but there is no way I'll be sitting in on grade 6+ practice sessions as I'm already worn out!

I always stood to play my bassoon, (My first bassoon teacher always stood to play in lessons, so that is what I did too.) except in orchestra etc. and that is how my bassonist daughter practises (no suitable chair in the room), I was most surprised at parents evening when it came out that she sits for her lessons and her teacher assumed she sat to practice. It never occurred to me that she should sit, and she hadn't said anything.

Similar to my daughter though she was just 15 when she took her first grade 8. Though the instrument she made the fastest initial progress on she still hasn't got Grade 8 and possibly won't until the summer.

I don't think she is past it on any of her instruments for conservatoire entry, if that's what she decides, though some will need more work than others.

Luckily, as others have already said, the situation is by no means as desperate as Morton implies for those who didn't start their instruments at age 2 and get grade 8 distinction while still at primary school!

My eldest didn't even start her first instrument until the age of 12, achieved grade 8 about 3 1/2 years later and has her place at a leading London conservatoire from September 2011. And no, she didn't go to a junior department - although again, as others have said, that guarantees nothing in itself - plenty of JD students didn't get into their conservatoire of choice in the recent round auditions. Some have learnt this to their cost - we met a few at auditions who were very vocal about how they 'should' or 'would definitely' get into this or that conservatoire, and then didn't.

The conservatoires did vary in their attitude towards auditions, some were more conveyor-belt-like and brisk, but others definitely took their time with candidates and really seemed to be seeking out those with the most potential or those who would get the most out of, and give the most to, that college.

It isn't an easy route, I think to be honest we would have fallen at the first hurdle all those years ago if we'd known what it entailed, but it can be done. I would support any young person as long as they realised the amount of work and commitment that needed to come from them, and realised how competitive it all is and that nothing is guaranteed.

Show him this as inspiration. Young bassoonists can do it too!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtyQn8OkY68