Just have to get this off my chest really, so apologies in advance:

Our 13yo daughter is an excellent musician (well I would think that). She's GR7 violin, approx Gr4 on Double-bass. She plays is 3 County groups, a local music centre orchestra, and the school one. She's marked as "talented", and recognised as such by the music service with grants to help her, and by encouragement from all quarters. The symphony orchestra are going on a European tour in the Summer.

And yet... she doesn't want to take GCSE music.

I suppose I just always assumed that it would be one of the ones she would do, if only because it should be really easy, but no, she will not have any of it. She has chosen other "soft" subjects in the slot instead (art & drama), neither of which she has ever shown any real promise in, as far as I can tell!

This makes me both sad and frustrated. I also feel cross on behalf of all the people who have supported her over the years that she is somehow ungratefully throwing it all back at them.

I'm now torn about whether I should keep funding the music lessons and/or the county groups. These come to a hefty total each year and I wonder if she should still be having these "treats" if she doesn't want to actually study the subject.

On a practical note, can I justify all the (other subject) class-time missed for instrument lessons, when she is not studying music. She does want to continue with instrumental lessons, but switching to private non-school-time lessons would be yet one more thing to be organised, whereas ithin school is easier.

Any views from other parents, or perhaps from teenagers who have been in a similar position ?


Thanks for listening

No, I wouldn't stop all the other activities, particularly if she enjoys them. She could decide to do A level music, and she could still get into a conservatoire without the GCSE or A level in music, as entry is dependent on the audition rather than academic qualifications.

She should keep going with all the music activities, as she clearly enjoys these, and works hard at them.

I can't see any reason why she should have to do GSCE music if she doesn't want to.

She may feel that she is doing enough music and wants the chance to study something else.

I also can't see why just because she is musically gifted as an instrumental player that she is expected to want to study music. As she gets older she may get other interests as well as music.

She is entitled to the extra help she gets with her music, because she is good at it. I wouldn't think that it is conditional on her studying music for a career.

I wouldn't be too worried about this, either. The lessons and all the ensembles she plays in will make her a far better musician than the GCSE. If it's anything like what it was when I took it (admittedly 14 years ago!) you hardly need any musical ability for it and it's certainly not a qualification required to pursue music seriously at an advanced level.

If she's getting plenty of musical exposure outside of school, why not let her do something different? She might not be the next Picasso or Judy Dench, but if she enjoys those subjects surely that's the most imortant thing.

Making her do GCSE muisc might make her interest in the subject diminish if she finds the lessons tedious, which she may well do as she is a very competant musician. I definitely did; they added no value to my musical knowledge whatsoever.

At 13 surely she can't know yet what she eventually wants to study. And even if it doesn't end up being music, the enjoyment, experiences and skills she will gather from spending her childhood playing in groups she enjoys at a high level is surely worth it on its own?

I am an accountant, but playing the flute was the thing I loved most while growing up, and just because I'm not a performing soloist doesn't make it any less worthwhile a thing to have done.

The post appeared twice sorry

Shockingly, I agree with Morton.

I was in a similar position to your daughter. There was a limited number of subjects that I could choose for GCSE and, to my mind, I was already studying music via piano lessons so it seemed sensible to me to do art instead.

I wasn't going to study music at University, so it wasn't important to get the GCSE's, but that doesn't mean that I did not value my lessons or the opportunities to play music. Many, many years later I am still using my piano skills and regularly playing. I may not have become a professional but the ability to play an instrument has given me a lot of joy over the years and the opportunity to learn from a young age and have that outlet for emotions and creativity is one of the greatest (and long lasting) gifts my parents gave to me.

Sorry if that sounds over the top but that's how I feel. To me GCSE music had nothing to do with playing an instrument and seemed a bit irrelevant.

Don't be sad. She's already getting an excellent musical education and she'll learn a lot more from playing in ensembles than she will from GCSE. Let her use the 'spare' GCSE for something else.

My DD is also currently looking at GCSE options. She's nowhere near as musically accomplished as yours (G3 piano; G2 sax, now abandoned; no ensembles). I would be quite pleased if she took Music for GCSE, but FAR more pleased if she joined a choir or orchestra!

I never took music as a subject at school, nor even took much part in school concerts (did the choir a couple of times for 'Founders Day' services). Part of this was because I went home for lunch every day and most activity was at lunchtime. Still got to ALCM on piano at age 16 and Grade 8 organ following year with private teachers.
I did have a few 'cello lessons with peripatetic in sixth form, and handed in the 'cello when I left. I havent touched one since , and that was Christmas 1964.

My posts seem to appear twice most of the time, it's all a bit strange...

Have you talked to your daughter about why she doesn't want to do GCSE music? It may be that she has (quite sensibly) realised that she will learn far more from her other music activities and that these will be of greater benefit to her development as a musician. I hated GCSE music because I found it so mindnumbingly dull (and I wasn't up to the same standard as your daughter). It didn't teach me any of the things I was interested in and actually put me off studying music any further. My impression is that GCSE music now includes less in terms of practical music, composition and music history than it did when I took it.

If she carries on with the ensembles, lessons etc she'll have a fabulous hobby for life, I only got up to grade 3 piano as a teenager, but I have a lot of fun playing the piano now.

I think GCSE is an absolute waste of time and she is probably well beyond it already.

She should still have the option to study it at A level if she wants to - plenty of mine have done that.
The trouble is, the options don't give you the chance to study more than 2 arts, so in some ways you could say she's found a way to do them all anyway!
You certainly don't need to feel she's letting down anyone who has supported her as I'm sure they don't feel this way, particularly as she is still actively enjoying her playing - and the same goes for her school instrumental lessons - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Something she might want to consider is how much work she will have to do in Drama or Art in terms of continuous assessment type of work which may mean she has less time for music outside school added to her homework in other subjects. If she did music at the level she is at the performance part would be something she could cover fairly easily.

My oldest son found GCSE music quite a relaxing "easy option". My youngest son is doing art and graphics and they seem to take up all his weekends.

Maybe she knows something that you don't?
Are most of those who will be in the GCSE class beginners or non musicians who will largely dictate the level of the teaching?

I firmly wanted to keep piano playing as my hobby in school, and so didn't take O level music. But I completed all the grades, theory too, and went on to get ALCM and am now a piano teacher.

So I would let your daughter enjoy and continue with her music outside of GCSE, but would also echo someone else's comments about the amount of time that coursework for Art can take up, although I don't know much about Drama.

Thanks for all the replies.

I DO agree with you on one level - that she enjoys the activities and I would love for her to do everything that she wants to try.

My question is really in the difficulty of justifying the cost and time implications. Music is vastly expensive (I worked out that I spent around ?800 in the last year on lessons, memberships, watching her in concerts etc!) at the level she is. And I have to justify this within the family finances, and for what is best for her in he long run.

I'm also considering whether to move from school-based lessons to private. The prices are probably the same. Private lessons would mean no more education missed during the day, but I think it also means stopping the county groups (as no longer taught by a peri - not sure on this one)

She has had (put up with) 3 years of class music lessons, where she has probably been very bored and frustrated. (She also disliked the teacher!) My thoughts were that the GCSE group would contain only those who were interested in music, so the lessons would move at a better pace, and cover areas that she would benefit from. Also, I understand that Grade 8 requires a good understanding of periods/styles and I thought that the music lessons might provide this.

I'm also concerned that she will spread herself too thinly, if she keeps up all the music activity on top of other subjects (instead of as part of it). I adore hearing her play, but should a responsible parent be curbing some of it to avoid burn-out? Art says that the students spend lunchhours in the arts-studio. Drama already want her to join the Monday lunch-club (plus there will be other after school productions). Weekends are often lost to the county group rehearsals. (Did I mention she also swims 3 or 4 times a week!) I think part of not-doing-music is so that she does not have to do the school music-club at lunchtime!


I guess there's no point trying any more persuasion - teenagers will always rebel anyway- mine is particulary headstrong!

I can't advise about Drama, but Art is a terrific choice for GCSE. You'll see her progress amazingly over the two years and emerge with skills for life. It's also an extraordinary amount of work, and is absolutely not a soft option. I would think the same is true of Drama - learning to perform, present, etc., are skills for life. No they are not academic subjects, and thus provide a lot more than an accumulation of facts soon to be forgotten.



How lovely that sounds. And I agree with your point that the problem in choosing GCSEs is not what you want to do, but what you can bear to drop.

Daughter2 also did not do music GCSE for the same reason as you. She did an enormous amount of music both in and out of school, including two instruments and many groups, and dropping music at GCSE seemed a reasonable compromise to us. She continued with and we carried on paying for practical music, for want of a better term. The Music department were not entirely impressed, understandably I think ("Textiles!!!!!" one of the staff said; she was mistress of the spoken exclamation mark). A thriving GCSE class is important for them, and to lose potential students is hard - especially if the alternative course taken seems a somewhat whimsical choice. But when Daughter2 belatedly had a Road to Damascus moment in choosing A levels (I think it was the week sixth form started...) the understanding & long-suffering Music head agreed, and they all supported her not just to 'catch up' but all the way through to successful tertiary applications (so I'll give a passing hurrah for music teachers). Even though she may not in the end pursue it as a career, I don't regret a single penny, litre of petrol, or hour in the car in enabling her to get as far as she can. Music is for life.

Ah - while I was composing my diatribe, you posted. I think if her choice has a financial implication, then she should be aware of this and asked to take it into account. Maybe she needs to realise that dropping music GCSE means she'll also lose lessons/groups/etc that would otherwise be part of it. You're unfortunate in that, but you can at least make it her decision and not your 'punishment'.

Time - young people do manage, that's all I can say. Is she organized? If so don't worry. If she isn't, she'll have to learn - another life skill. You may find yourself picking up the pieces every so often and gritting your teeth to stop yourself saying 'I told you so'! I would ask the school's advice - they will have seen a case like this before. Certainly some of Daughter2's friends managed an extraordinary diversity - and some seemed to drop everything. It's down to the individual

Thanks listener. It's good to hear your tale.

I guess I'll just keep up with the taxi routine to all the rehearsals, and hope that schoolwork does not get too overwhelming.

The things to watch with that kind of combination at GCSE is the spread of work and deadlines. She has to keep on top of work and even work ahead if deadlines are going to clash. Even so, I can see term 2 of year 11 being fun (I didn't have grey hair until that point). Also to understand that a deadline is the very last point at which she can hand something in - it's the brick wall (hear the teeth grinding?). And also that 'just the last few bits left to do' actually take far far longer than she will ever imagine.

In the end the odd music lesson/rehearsal might have to go; even county groups get missed on occasion. If her new schedule is going to be more expensive/more time consuming because of extra travel to lessons, she might want to axe some things completely... more hard choices. Not fun, good luck.

GCSE Music was a total nightmare and I don't think I would have wanted my daughter to take it in the normal way. Even without the benefit of hindsight it wouldn't have worked.

I guess your daughter knows jow she feels about class music and the teacher and this my be the biggest influence in her choice.

We are at the 6h form college stage and for A level they ask the students to be able to read at Grade 5 standard, GCSE Music is not required.

I wouldn't let it impact on any musical activities that your daughter is already involved in.

As someone else has said it is very pleasurable to see the development of artistic talents but it is a lot of work. Youngest has loved doing Drama but this has a lot to do with having an excellent teacher.



The first term of year 11 was ###### here due to GCSE's in November. Some ensemble practices had to be missed and practice set aside. The new controlled assignments which means the work has to be done in school time is benificial to those wiht lots of after school committments.

It's tough but you will get through it

Which other GCSEs is she doing? My son did do music GCSE, but all of the other ones were academic GCSEs with quite a bit of coursework (the worst ones were history and geography) He still managed to do music centre on a Saturday, plus jazz band, concert band, orchestra, sax ensemble and pit orchestra at school, and he also did Duke of Edinburgh Award. His GCSEs did not suffer.

He is very disorganised, takes on a lot, but I wouldn't have wanted to stop him doing those things. In the end I felt that he should be given all the opportunities possible, as long as he was enthusiastic about doing those things. Your daughter may reduce her activities of her own accord. My son took on too many A levels, and dropped one, but it was his own decision. If I had made him drop his musical activities, he would have been distraught.

I don't know anything about the school in question, but you may be making false assumptions here. GCSE music does not (anymore!) require candidates to have had previous training in music and, unless there is a very good teacher, it is likely that the class will go at the pace of the slowest. GCSE music can attract its fair share of students who are doing it because they have to do something and think it will be an easy subject to just mess around in (rather than because they are interested in the subject). It probably won't be that much use for the part of Grade 8 which requires the discussion of periods/styles - GCSE is much broader and doesn't go into as much depth as will be required for grade 8. The GCSE is now set up so that a cadidate who is around grade 5 standard at the end of the course should be able to do what is required the the top marks.



This is to my mind more of an issue. I think you both need to look into these things before a final decision is made.

I think that might depend on how well it's taught, and how much is expected of the students. My son (year 10) is at G7 level piano and guitar, is enjoying music GCSE immensely, and is by no means finding it an easy option, because he's expected to work to his full ability.

Without doing GCSE my daughter would have never had any composition experience. It was apinful whilst she was attending the lessons once she stopped the stress was more ot do with not knowing if she was doing the right thing.

Jellywobble is there any way your daughter could do the GCSE music without attending the lessons?

Good point. This still haunts Daughter2 (although she says might have been rubbish at composition even with GCSE experience).

I just switched on my lap top with a view to saying exactly this, having been mulling over MNWs comments during the afternoon. My daughter is also in year 10 studying GCSE music despite (or because of) already having an assortment of grades 6 and 7 and grade 5 piano coming up. She certainly seems thoroughly engaged by the subject, which does not strike me as a soft option either.

Do whatever you need to to keep your daughter with her county groups and other ensembles. When the going gets tough - and inevitably it does through those GCSE/A level years, going along to rehearsals becomes a hugely important social outlet - and therefore the music continues. Sadly, all too many promising young instrumentalists falter if/when music becomes just another solitary activity in those awkward teenage years.

As to GCSE, let her keep her options open and make sure she has a good mix of relaxing and more intensive subjects. Do be aware that art and drama tend to have the biggest coursework load and I would be wary of taking on both of those especially if she enjoys and is committed to a lot of extracurricular activities. As to whether music should be one of those, I wouldn't spoil her enjoyment of music by making her do an exam in it just because it is there. Music A level without GCSE is a well trodden path and doesn't sound like it should present much of a problem to your daughter. Although the music department will probably be disappointed not to have her in the GCSE group, I suspect that they would welcome her with open arms as a strong potential A level candidate. In the meantime, let her explore her creative side elsewhere too!

Sorry, not a parent, but:
I was in a similar situation (grades 6/7 practical and heading towards grade 6 theory) when I chose my GCSE options last year, and seriously considered not doing music so that I could take another subject. However, I did take music and haven't regretted it - I love it! Yes, the material is very easy for me, but it means that I can explore things other than the basics and challenge myself. I can also help other people out in the group. (and of course, it's less work!)

BUT this really depends on the group of students and the teacher. I would advise you to try and find out who is thinking of doing it, because the pace of teaching depends on the skill levels of the others in the group.

The other thing is that I've found it very composition-based, which is great, because that's something I'm really interested it. Does your daughter do any composition at the moment, and is it something that she'd be interested in? Because maybe GCSE is worth it for that extra experience.

My daughter plays in the county wind orchestra without having ever had lessons from the county music service, so it shouldn't be a problem, particularly as she is already in. Daughter did her first grade 8 in year 9, so before she started the GCSE course and she coped fine with the discussion parts on musical styles.

The thing that would worry me if the GCSE options came as a surprise to me would be whether they are picking them for the right reasons. As long as she hasn't opted for drama and art because all her friends are doing those, or a reason like that she should be fine.

My son, who is quite musical, but not intending to make a career of it, had a toss up between DT, music and Latin. He enjoyed DT but thought the teachers were a waste of space, was very good at Latin, but not enjoying it much, and music. I left it up to him and in the end he went for Latin, which he now seems to really enjoy. I was quite tempted to push him towards music as he might have hated latin, and done badly because of lack of support from DT teachers, but sometime you have to trust them to make the right decisions for themselves. (Not something that comes naturally to me )

Though at some schools they seem to expect the compositions without teaching how.

Hello Jellywobble,

Don't worry about it! Our experience is that GCSE Music has almost nothing to do with being a good practical musician and enjoying playing at a high level.

My dd did GCSE Music last year as part of a small group, who took it a year early. Very surprisingly, as she is a very talented musician, she found it almost impossible. The scope of genres of music involved, hip hop, reggae, rap etc, were alien to her. She managed a very good mark in the end, but she really hated it. This year she is preparing the AS syllabus, but not taking the exam. She loves it and finds it interesting.

I suspect that your daughter enjoys playing, but not the sound of the GCSE course. Who can blame her? Encourage her to play and don't worry about the rest.

A word of advice though....one of my older children did GCSE art and it took up 50% of her time. All the other subjects took up the remaining 50%. They were seriously academic subjects too! Art is not a 'soft' option!

Violinma





[quote name='jellywobble' date='Feb 11 2011, 01:17 PM' post='1030




Just have to get this off my chest really, so apologies in advance:

Our 13yo daughter is an excellent musician (well I would think that). She's GR7 violin, approx Gr4 on Double-bass. She plays is 3 County groups, a local music centre orchestra, and the school one. She's marked as "talented", and recognised as such by the music service with grants to help her, and by encouragement from all quarters. The symphony orchestra are going on a European tour in the Summer.

And yet... she doesn't want to take GCSE music.

I suppose I just always assumed that it would be one of the ones she would do, if only because it should be really easy, but no, she will not have any of it. She has chosen other "soft" subjects in the slot instead (art & drama), neither of which she has ever shown any real promise in, as far as I can tell!

This makes me both sad and frustrated. I also feel cross on behalf of all the people who have supported her over the years that she is somehow ungratefully throwing it all back at them.

I'm now torn about whether I should keep funding the music lessons and/or the county groups. These come to a hefty total each year and I wonder if she should still be having these "treats" if she doesn't want to actually study the subject.

On a practical note, can I justify all the (other subject) class-time missed for instrument lessons, when she is not studying music. She does want to continue with instrumental lessons, but switching to private non-school-time lessons would be yet one more thing to be organised, whereas ithin school is easier.

Any views from other parents, or perhaps from teenagers who have been in a similar position ?


Thanks for listening
[/quote]

That was so true in our case. Fortunately having to compose for GCSE has meant she can now compose Magic!!!

Not doing a particular thing as an academic subject is not necessarily a bad thing. I dropped A-level music to do further maths, but kept up with my music in other ways, eventually getting a music degree. There are people who will probably disagree with me but I think my life was enriched by having breadth of study (maths vs music?! surely not ). Also, my other half had been a programmer since he was little, and intentionally did not do computer science because he felt he wanted to do something that he'd never done before. He works as a programmer now, and is similarly thankful that he did a different subject at university than the "easy choice".

Edit: I interview students for university admission now, and a fair number of them say that they do not want to take the easy option. Some have picked the International Baccalaureate over A-levels because it is harder - others choose intentionally difficult projects (analysing how skis bend when you land from a jump, anyone?!) because they want the challenge.

This semester I dropped an engineering course which would could have been "useful" to my future career path (though not to my current academic focus) in favor of courses in Spanish and philosophy. In fact, such breadth is required by my university - it is impossible to satisfy the general education requirements for graduation without taking courses in a wide variety of departments. I am mostly interested in mathematics, physics, and music, but I wouldn't be able to restrict myself to these options even if I wanted to. More directly related to the music issue, I have a friend who is a very talented musician (accepted to big conservatories like Juilliard, etc.) but she goes to university with me and doesn't intend to major in music, since she can continue developing her musical skills by practicing, taking lessons, summer camps, while getting an academic background in something different. The current head of violin faculty at my university actually got an undergraduate degree in German studies from Harvard and then went to a prestigious music school (can't remember/spell the name) in Germany...

I see where she is coming from, because I find GCSE music completely irrelevant to anything I'd lernt before, but your point here is something that I found. I took grade 8 at the end of year 9, so before I started GCSE music, but even after a few months of it, I wished I'd waited a bit longer before taking grade 8 because I felt I understood music a lot more already, especially in terms of being able to do the aural tests. Two years later I'm about to do grade 8 sax, and I feel a lot more confident going into the aural tests knowing what I do from GCSE music.

OP, I did GCSE music and I am now doing A level music with my school.
Personally, I think GCSE music is pointless for someone like your daughter, as it was for myself. Your daughter is already taking part in so many musical activities - have you considered that perhaps she doesn't want her whole life to revolve around music?
Just because she is good at music, it doesn't mean she has to pursue it as a school subject, does it?
My mother always says, never study something you love in higher education otherwise you will hate it in the end!
I don't think you should be so displeased by your daughters choices, if anything, she is broadening her options for the future by studying and learning about more than just music...
Regards,
Wurlitzer

Completely agree that you should (a) keep on the general musical support, and (b) let GCSE music go. My daughter's music education at school leaves a great deal to be desired, and we are agreed on Art GCSC alongside ABRSM theory grade 6 or so by year 11 ( hope grade 7). In the meantime my cunning plan is the Trinity/Guildhall Certificates for which you prepare, I understand, a programme of perforance together with programme notes.

My eldest daughter (13) is a violinist (post grade 7) and pianist (preparing for grade 6) and while she loves her musical social life (local orchestra, Pro Corda strings) doesn't see herself as becoming a professional musician. So my priority is to keep her practising and loving the things that music adds to her life. I've made it very clear GSCE music is optional, but developing as a musician in a broader way is the priority. Luckily, her wonderful piano teacher is keen on wider musicianship and - looking over the next 5 years - I hope she will leave school as a happy and very accomplished musician.

I think it depends on your definition of 'easy' - Ancient Greek and Latin have the highest A*-B pass rates.

I didn't really explain what I meant by "easy", did I? What I meant was that he didn't have to work at any of the performance parts of the exam because he was already at Grade 8 level, so it was an easy option for him compared to geography, which involved a sizable amount of coursework. He also loves composing and does that for fun, anyway, so for him it was a very enjoyable subject to do.

Because Latin and Greek are seldom taken by 'less able' candidates and are usually only taught in high acheiving selective schools?

Where did you find the information about Latin and Greek? Is there a table showing all subjects? I'd be interested to have a look at it.

I did Latin O Level at my comprehensive school, but it was "ahem" a long time ago

We've had a similar dilemma recently with my daughter who has just selected her GCSE options. She wanted to be able to do 3 sciences, 3 languages and music, but couldn't do all of them and it took ages to decide which to give up. In the end it came down to a choice between music and Spanish and we looked into doing one of them outside school. In the end she decided to stick with music in school and she might be continuing with Spanish by having conversation classes with a neighbour who is a native Spanish speaker. We won't bother with the GCSE, but it will be good to keep it up.

Not quite sure why she came to that decision. I suspect it was am much about what her friends were doing as anything else, but I must say I'm pleased - music will be her only creative subject.

It looks like they've stopped publishing separate data, and the two are now lumped in the statistics with Classical Studies (which I'm sure has a lower pass rate) under the title 'Classical Subjects'

http://www.jcq.org.uk/attachments/publishe...%2024-08-10.pdf (Start at p.3 of pdf)

So 77% get an A*-B in 'Classical Subjects' vs 75% for Physics, Chemistry and Biology as separate sciences rather than the double science award.

Edit: OK, this is a better table, but just for one board:
http://www.ocr.org.uk/download/admin/ocr_4...gq_jun_2010.pdf
Classical Greek A*-B 96%
Latin 90%

Thank you, those tables are very interesting and I had problems finding them myself on the Internet. I think cohort and small class sizes play a big role in Latin and Greek results.

I should pay more attention to what I'm doing - those figures were for A-levels, GCSEs are some pages further on, those percentages then seem to fall into the 80s.

I don't know if this is still the case, but it used to be possible to get a grade C in GCSE music without being able to read or write a note of music?

I suppose it may be possible to do the performance part without reading music - one could play by ear - but I'm not so sure about the composition. If one has to submit a score, then probably not. Perhaps someone else could elucidate?