I know that a mouthpiece for a brass instrument has to suit the instrument and the player. It is a good idea to start with a good mouthpiece. String players have to have a bow that suits their instrument as well as them.
Clarinetists change their mouthpieces as they get better. Flautists go for different heads. However oboists play on bought reeds which may or may not suit them or their instruments often until they start at conservatiore. Should reed making be considered as part of playing the oboe, not as something to do if the bought ones are too expensive?

How come oboists are so stupid?

It's the lack of oxygen to the brain

Or perhaps they just like the added stress that comes from knowing you have a poor reed. To quote (selectively) from "The Musical Temperament" by Anthony Kemp:
"[...] an obsession about 'reed' problems serves to keep the hapless oboe player in a perpetual state of fear. What emerged in connection with my group of 33 secondary school oboe players was, indeed a convincing picture of anxiety* [...] one is led to assume that anxious individuals may possess the physical attributes of tension necessary for oboe playing. Alternatively, it may be that repeated exposure to the high levels of pressure in the head and upper chest, as well as the muscular tension of the lips, face, diaphragm, added to the technical problems mentioned above, generate particularly high levels of anxiety, which are more lasting.
In the light of the above, the [conservatoire/university] student oboe players' profile is even more mystifying. In demonstrating a total absence of anxiety, in fact, distinct tranquility, the results suggest, on the face of it, that something fairly dramatic might occur after secondary school and during selection for conservatoire or university."

Kemp speculates at some length on why they lose their anxiety. Obviously it never occured to him that they might simply have learnt to make their own reeds

*anxiety is used here as a psychological term referring to a "trait" and covering a whole lot of different characteristics

Now that's where I am going wrong. Not worrying about the reeds all the time. I am quite interested as to why oboists think that making reeds is an optional extra in learning the oboe. It is a bit like not learning to transpose if you play the horn.

I have a strange feeling of deja vu about this thread...

I have had a bit more thought about this and I would be interested to know when students are encouraged to start reed making in France, as I think it is more difficult to buy reeds there?

This thread has done a really good job in reminding me I need to pay daughter's teacher for two reeds.

If daughter's teacher can make reeds. Why can't she teach daughter to make reeds?

Maybe some people don't have the time to work on making reeds..... or the money to pay for more lesson time than is needed to learn to play the instrument well.

This doesn't actually say that the teacher made the reeds..... I didn't read it that way anyway.

The problem is, that you can't learn to play the instrument really well unless the reeds suit you, and the instrument that you are playing on. This is why such importance is placed on reed making lessons at places like GSMD. However it takes about 4 years to get reeds consistent, so if you start at college, you are just about starting to get good reeds at the end of the course. I would have thought that it would have been better to start the course on good reeds. I suppose it may depend on how good you think you want to get at playing the oboe?

Of course the assumption in that is that you can't buy a reed that suits you and the instrument you are playing on.

The conclusion from the previous thread you started on this last month seemed to be that many people were more than happy with the reeds that they bought, I found the comment by Kerioboe's teacher very interesting as it came from a very competent reed maker!

Make or buy thread

I think there can be a degree of snobbishness about reeds and the assumption that a reed you have made yourself is always superior to one bought from someone else.

My cor teacher at college said on one occasion that she didn't think that any of the students had played on a really good reed until they had made their own.

I also think that if someone can't make reeds they shouldn't teach the oboe.

Anyone thinking of going to college will be expected to be able to make reeds. Most good places now ask for a recital piece in practical exams to be played on a reed that the student has made.

I have also been told that you can't pass an orchestral audition unless you can make your own reeds. So with all this in mind it seems to me that there is a lot of importance placed on reed making by people who know about what you need to be able to do to play the oboe really well.

My own reeds are far superior to anything that I have ever bought. They suit me, and the staples suit my oboe.

I thought you studied French Horn at college and didn't take up oboe till later?


ah well, but you mustn't forget that these are the same people that say you need to support the sound, that making reeds is difficult, that you need to breath out before breathing in and don't get me started on the way they teach their students articulation - suggesting that there is more than one way to tongue a note, coming out with meaningless phrases like "legato tongueing".

Pah, it has become clear to me that these so called experts know nothing.....nothing I tell you!



*goes off to see if she can make her oboe sound like a frying pan *

Been to college twice on two different instruments.

All of that is fine, but anyone going to college to play the oboe will be expected to make reeds and pass exams on a reed they have made. So if they can't make reeds they can't pass the exams.
I would have thought that having the opportunity to learn to make reeds before going to college, would be something worthwhile doing, especially if you find that you are never going to be any good at it and need to think of different subject to study.

I quite agree - from a cost point of view if nothing else. If you are going to be a professional oboist it is definitely worth being able to make your own reeds, other students may also want to make reeds because they are interested, or because they can't find a bought reed to suit them.

I think it is big jump from this to say that all oboists at whatever standard must make their own reeds and that bought ones are always rubbish. The experience of other people on this forum (some of whom I have heard play and are excellent players) has demonstrated to me that this is not the case. Some very good oboists who CAN make their own reeds still choose to buy reeds because they have found a supplier who can provide them with reeds that suit their playing and instrument better their own efforts.

Personally I'd quite like a go at making my own reeds at some point in the future if time allows, but for now I get superb reeds from my teacher which suit my playing/ instrument and need very little adjustment - so I don't see it as priority right now and would rather spend time practising my instrument. That is all. (talking of which........)

I can understand people who do not work as musicians and play for fun, buying reeds, because their standard is probably limited by the amount of time they have to practise anyway.

What I wanted to do was to make clear to any parent or young person who reads this and is thinking of going to a conservatoire or university to study the oboe, that they will be expected to play on reeds that they have made and maybe should start to think about making reeds before leaving school.
It woud be a shame to have done lots of practise at playing and then discover that you can't do anything with it because you can't make reeds. I also think that if reed making is going to be a problem it is better to find out before you go to college?

Teacher doesn't make the reeds, she buys them and sells them on at a discount.

I dare say at some point daughter will learn to make her own reeds but in the midst of GCSE's and Grade 8's it's just not the right time to take on something else that she doesn't have time for.





Before there is any confusion teacher can make reeds she has made the choice to use bought ones.




Where do you get your information from?

Why would colleges run reed making courses (aka your previous post) if they expected students to play on a reed they have made? I know conservatoires run reed making courses.

This is clearly rubbish. They cannot expect you to go into your exam with a pile of reed making equipment and assemble a playable reed in front of them. Therefore they have no idea whether you have made the reed yourself, or had it made for you by someone else. They expect you to learn how to make them, because learning how they are constructed will help with adjustments needed and also it is a useful skill for a professional oboist to have, but the idea that you would fail an exam because you are not using a reed you have made yourself is just absurd.

Strange. I seem to recall all YOU had to do was copy a reed in your box and that was that. If indeed it does take 4 years to "get consistent", how many reeds do you think you will have made in that time?

Perhaps that's why Morton's reeds sound like frying pans.

Nope, sorry Morton, I studied music at a conservatoire, with Oboe as first study, and I played on reeds I bought from Howarths! Oh, and on the odd desperate occasion, I remember playing on an aweful Gala reed I'd had to buy from a local music shop in an emergency!

We had reed making teaching at college, but it was never a skill that I took to, although as a teacher I do feel it is an important skill to have. Obviously, I scrape my reeds to my liking, and train my students to do the same, but reed making is definitely not an essential skill to study oboe at conservatoire.

I think it's a more useful skill to be able to play on (and know how to manage) different reeds. But then, what do I know? I've only been teaching for 20 years!

Someone else did some research on this and even at some universities oboists must play in exams on a reed that they have made


I don't know how they check what people are playing on. All I know is that to play on a reed you have made is a requirement. What I didn't know until recently is that some universities ask for it as well.


I have been to a music conservatoire in the last 5 years as a cor anglais player. It was my cor teacher there who did the research on which universities and conservatoires ask for the student to play on a reed that they have made in exams. Some conservatoires don't ask for this, but I think that it is interesting that some university music departments do. I suppose it just shows that some university music departments are better at training oboists than some conservatoires.

Which conservatoire did you take lessons at?

Which Universities are they? I'm sure your teacher will be only too happy to tell you which ones they are.

Couldn't asking an Oboist to play on a made reed be deemed unfair unless you are asking other reed players to do the same?

How many people do you know who make their own clarinet reeds?

It isn't unfair. Playing the oboe includes being able to make your own reeds.

I know that Huddersfield university and Leeds university music depts ask their oboists to perform in an exam on a reed that they have made. There may also be others, oboists thinking of going to university/ conservatoire would be wise to check.

The person who makes the assessment as to whether it is a good career path, for the student oboist should be able to advise on which courses require you to take exams on a reed you have made.

Courses that don't put a high priority on oboe reed making are not suitable for someone wanting to try to get into a professional orchestra.

As not being able to make reeds can make a difference to future study and career prospects. I think it would be wise to find out if you can cope with making your own reeds while still at school, and have a chance to change course of study, if it becomes obvious that you are not going to be any good at it.

I would have thought for someone planning on a career as an oboist, getting proficient at reed making wouldn't be the most difficult thing they have to do. After all, as you have pointed out previously, it isn't rocket science.

Sorry, but being a professional oboist does not include being proficient at making reeds. An ability to manage reeds is an obvious necessity, but this is quite different to making your own reeds - many professional oboists, including myself, simply do not have the time!

Which orchestra do you play in? Not freelance.


It isn't rocket science. But some people are very bad at it. Some years back I met someone who wanted played the oboe well enough to study it at college with a view to playing in an orchestra, however she could not make reeds that were good enough to play on. In the end she made the decision to do something else with her life.

Just assuming for a moment that a student could get into college to study oboe without being able to make reeds, if they started in the first year would it be possible that by the end of the 4th year they would be capable of making good enough reeds to hold down a permanent orchestral seat (you know - not freelance).

How many reeds do you reckon they will have made by then?

Going back a few posts (I'm a bit slow, don't you know...). I thought I'd start by de-bunking the oboes/oboists-are-different myth.

I think that you can buy the best reeds to suit your oboe in exactly the same way you can buy a mouthpiece and reed for a clarinet, a headpiece for a flute, etc, etc.

We are lucky to have the additional option to be able to make - or have made for us - very personalised reeds that can make us and our instrument sound even better. Flautists would find it it a bit hard to make or adjust their own head pieces.

As has been commented elsewhere, a really talented oboist will be able to make even a pretty ghastly reed sound good but it's a lot more work to play than one that you know fits you and the instrument. So, I agree that it's a really useful craft to develop but not essential (other than being able to adjust reeds).

Of course, if it is a conservatoire entry requirement to be able to make them (I must say I am surprised by that) then students should know that in advance and be able to find someone who can teach them to make reeds. Whether that means that all teachers should always teach reedmaking is another matter. I wish I and my teacher could find more time for that but teaching on the instrument always gets top priority. It will be very long time before I can play on my own reeds (his are really excellent and made perfectly "to order") and even if I could make a reed that could play properly I would be a bit wary of it having less than ideal effects on my embouchure.

Depends on how much time they are prepared to spend on it, and how much talent they have for making them.

You would have to be very good at making the reeds and very fast at learning how to do it in 4 years.
It takes a lot of practise time, to get them consistent enough so that you can make the small adjustments to suit your style of playing, and you may need to be at this stage at the end of the 4 years

I have heard of students at top conservatoires who in the 4th year are still having a lot of instruction on how to make reeds from their oboe teacher, (not the reed making teacher, reed making lessons are seperate from the oboe lessons,) who clearly aren't going to be able to get the reeds good enough so that they can play on them all the time, by the end of the 4th year.

It is not a conservatoire entry requirment, but it is a conservatoire course requirement. So if you get to conservatioire having passed the audition, and then discover that you are hopeless at making reeds, you will still be expected to spend a lot of time doing it, and may be asked to play on them in exams. I would have thought that it would have been better to know that you are hopeless before you start the course.

Even a really talented oboist can't sound good on a reed that doesn't work.

So which is it?

I overheard Melinda Maxwell talking about the reed making lessons that the Senior students took part in whilst we were at the woodwind weekend.

I agree that learning how to make reeds is important but making them won't give anyone a head start for Uni if they don't already have good technique. I'd prefer to see technical development which is something you can't buy and leave reed making until later.

Morton which conservatoire did you study at with the Cor player? I think you should identify your source not by name but by institution.

Birmingham.


That is fine. I just wanted to point out that even a very good technique on the oboe, will require the player to be able to make reeds, and play on them. If reed making is difficult for them, then it will require extra time to be spent on it at college and if it is still a problem, then a career in an orchestra is not likely, and teaching would not be fair to the pupils.

[quote name='morton' date='Feb 13 2011, 02:24 PM' post='1031001']
Which orchestra do you play in? Not freelance.

[quote name='morton' post='1030975' date='Feb 13 2011, 12:56 PM']


I don't! I do lots of freelance. So no, Morton, by your assessments I'm not a 'top' professional, but there are many other ways to make a living being an oboist. Yes, I teach, but, yes, I also get paid to play on a freelance basis.

However, I've been fortunate enough to have been taught by top professionals who do play in top British orchestras, and whilst, yes, reed making was included in my training (although as a fairly minor after thought, generally when the teacher was a bit short of time and needed an excuse to teach more than one student at a time), all of my teachers sold on to me reeds they had bought themselves, and often themselves played on reeds bought from places such as Howarths.

I don't know where you get your info from but it's definitely time for me to retire from this thread!!

Tara!

Oh, and which orchestra do you play in?

My French teacher does teach reed-making to his pupils because of the lack of availability of decent bought oboe reeds BUT he won't let them get their hands on a knife until they are 15. So they certainly don't have 4 years to perfect their technique before they leave school.

He does show them how to adjust reeds with a piece of fine sand-paper before then.

A disadvantage of learning to make reeds too early is that until your own embouchure is stable, the sort of reed you want is going to change anyway.

I don't think reed-making is impossibly difficult, and I find it hard to imagine that an oboe student physically couldn't learn to make their own reeds. However, as others said, it is time consuming, particularly when you first start making them and I can perfectly understand why most people buy their reeds.

The most important skill, I think, is being able to adjust a reed, not being able to make your own.

I also disagree that a professional can't make a nice sound on any reed. The problem is how much it effort it requires to produce the sound you want and how long you can keep that effort up for.

If someone makes an absolute dud reed no one is going to be able to play on it.

Professional players make a lot of reeds to get good ones. Does that sound as if any reed will do?
The reeds also have to sound right Not every reed will do that. So reed making at college is very important, and a part of the course, which at many places you are examined in.(Playing on a reed you have made in an exam) I am not convinced that taking up a new skill at college that you are going to be examined in and which will affect the outcome of your career is always a good idea, especially if you could have started it while still at school.

Finally i can stand it no longer... what utter rubbish! pianists are not expected to be tuners, nor violinists to be luthiers. Brendel has never in his life made a piano... nor menuhin replaced a soundpost. Some players are good reedmakers and/or technicians. Some aren't. Those who aren't will have to rely on others slightly more. That's life. What's more, I have NEVER EVER heard of a dancer who makes her own pointe shoes (the closest analogy to reed making). Grown up, Morton!

Morton you still haven't answered how the examiners would know who made the reed played in the exam.

You have a habit of ignoring questions you cannot answer or when someone makes a valid point.

Not true - many British oboists work like this and go through many reeds until one is perfect (perfectly reasonably) but the German practice is to repeatedly and comprehensively measure the reed in progress with a micrometer, meaning they can generate almost identical reeds, with a much higher probability of success.

I repeat what I said earlier. A professional player can make almost any reed sound right. The problem is the amount of effort it requires to do this. My teacher has demonstrated this to me with his own playing and has also given me reeds that do not suit me and made me produce my "normal" sound with them. He has only ever done this in lessons - he has never given me an awful one to take home and practise on.

What he was trying to prove is that the reed is not everything, that it easy to waste a lot of practice time fussing about having the perfect reed and that, since there are going to be times when all you have are poor reeds, you need to learn to cope with poor reeds. having poor reeds is not necessarily because you are a poor reed-maker. Climatic conditions here can make reeds change dramatically overnight. His view is, as I said earlier, that a good reed is a reed that allows you to produce the sound you want with the least possible effort. He is much better at making a poor reed sound decent than I am, and that's normal. He's a professional, I'm not.

(see above)

I thought everyone did this with the micrometer, not just the Germans. If you don't you can't tell if you have scraped the cane to your usual measurements. Even if you do use a micrometer for every reed and get the measurement identical the reeds still come out all different.

What you have just described is the same result as you get from a profiler. Most bought reeds are made using a profiler. I don't think anyone would describe them as all sounding the same or playing the same way.
The way to get best success with reed making is to find someone to supply you with very good cane.


In other words you are telling the conservatoires that they have got this all wrong and that they don't need to teach their students to make reeds.
Someone I know who makes very good reeds, was asked by another young player to make some reeds so that the young player could get more freelance orchestral work. They said no make your own reeds. The reed maker is also a freelance player making reeds for the other player would reduce the amount of work the reed maker might be offered.

The point I'm making is Conservatoires do teach people to make reeds

So if they all come out different even if you do use a micrometer, what's the point using one? Anyway, more seriously, what are you actually measuring with the micrometer and at which stages of reed making?

Do you have any recommendations? Do you buy tube cane and gouge your own?

My oboe teacher doesn't use one. An oboe tutor on a course I went on did and I have got one.

My oboe teacher doesn't use one for two reasons: 1) you don't measure the whole reed but just points on the reed so it is not really enabling you to standardise everything 2) as each piece of cane is slightly different you are never going to scrape two reeds exactly identically.

I find it useful to check that I have actually scraped both faces of the reed identically and all four sides identically. My teacher can tell just by looking at and/or by the feel of it under his knife, I haven't yet got enough experience to do that. The oboe tutor also used his to measure the tip but I don't. I find for the tip itself I can rely on looking at it and the way it makes a sound to decide what to do with it.

So, in answer to your question. I measure the heart and sides when I think I've finished scraping it.

Well, I haven't been around for ages and this looks like an interesting thread.

I'll say that my oboe teacher studied at Birmingham Conservatoire fairly recently and they were supposed to play on reeds that they themselves had made. (No idea how whether/how they would check.) And I have seen Conservatoire students sitting in the lounge-y type area scraping away at reeds. I've hear a similar story from another music college but can't remember off-hand which one.

AFAIK at RAM, RNCM and Birmingham there are reed making classes (from speaking to people at those places). And it's not assumed that you can make reeds before you start at college. Maybe it helps, maybe it makes things harder - probably depends on the students.

I suspect that no one gives a monkeys what a professional is playing on - if they sound good etc, they get the gig. If not, not.

Whilst I have great ambitions on the oboe (or at least some modest ones) they don't extend to making my own reeds. Life is just too short. But then I've never been very good at making things, so I suspect I'd have a steep learning curve.

I don't know how this is arranged. Also I have no need to know because I only play on reeds I have made.
It is something that came up during my recent cor lessons.


Depends on how good you are at crafts. It takes a lot of practise, with practise you could probably get to having no desire to ever buy a reed again, in about 4 years. The less good you are at making them the more practise you will have to do.


I buy gouged cane. I don't have a gouging machine.
The point of the micrometer is to measure the thickness of the cane where you have scraped it. Without doing this you may have scraped the reed to all different thicknesses over both the blades. The reason why even if you measure the reed really well, that they all come out different is because no two pieces of cane are identical. Ask a clarinetist how many good reeds they get out of a box of 10.

Averagely? 6 good, 3 good after adjustment or leaving for a while, 1 beyond redemption