When i used to play with a shoulder rest, i never really noticed anyone playing without one, therefore never tried to.
Last month i had a consultation lesson with my teacher for music college in september, and to my surprise he told me i don't need a s/r. I'd never considered playing without one. I did play with a folded up cloth but now i use nothing at all, and i can't imagine going back to one... even though at first it was like learning to play all over again.
All of my friends at orchestra etc. don't understand how i can play without one and claim they physically can't do it themselves.

I think there's many people out there relying on s/r's when they dont actually need one - mine was causing me so many technique problems which are now well en route to being fixed now the rest is gone But when i used a rest, i genuinelly thought i wasnt physically able to play without it.

I was just wondering how many people on here use one, and if they've tried to learn to play without one.

(No this isn't an anti-shoulder rest post! )


Oh dear - i don't think my poll worked

I've been doing some thinking about this recently
this video is quite interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSk8W5gFffA...der&list=UL
I watched it and then tried to play without my shoulder rest and I liked it...ish
I felt I had more freedom to move around the violin without it, but I must have been gripping with my neck or something because the next day I woke up and my shoulder was really clicky and just felt dead, pretty much!
I also noticed that without the shoulder rest I was holding the violin differently, with my chin more towards the tailpiece.

Yeah, i agree so much about more freedom. My violin can move, and isnt fixated to my shoulder! I used to want it to feel fixed and anchored down but my playing is better hwen its free.

When i used a shoulder rest i was using my shoulder to hold my violin... the s/r's didnt allow me to do otherwise! which gave me excrutiating shoulder pains especially when playing for long periods of time. Without the rest i hold the violin how it was designed to be held, between the collar bone and jaw
I no longer get a sore (understatement) neck, shoulder and forearm and my hand doesnt seize up now either

Obviously everyones bodies are different though, this is just my experience

Interesting stuff. I'm experimenting at the moment with ditching my shoulder rest, having been suffering neck and shoulder pain, and have gone for a sponge and a bit of cloth, which actually feels more comfortable. Not too keen on the rubber band look though...more customisation required, obviously!

I think perhaps many of us could do with consultation lessons to sort out these sorts of problems. Chinrests have a lot to answer for too.

That's funny because I was also just recently inspired to play without a shoulder rest by her videos too! Also the fact that... er... I never quite mastered the art of keeping my shoulder rest firmly secured to the instrument... and it fell off when we were performing in the Sheldonian...

I'm going to have a good look at the vid (not now, it's midnight here). I have always used a shoulder rest and up until this (and Jojo's experiences) I've never considered it an option to play without.
I think it could be an interesting experience after playing with one for 32 years!!

Interesting because I'm having shoulder/chin rest problems just now.

I thought I needed a smaller viola because moving my left hand around was difficult because my grip was quite tight, I couldn't reach 3rd position on the C string at all, and my 4th was flat. Then my teacher handed me his 16.5 inch viola and I could play it no problem, in all positions - even with the dreaded 4th finger in tune! The trick was that I could 'hold' his viola easily with shoulder and chin so my hand was free to do all sorts of acrobatics!

Turns out I had swapped my chinrest for a centred one but it was too flat and had no lip so I couldn't 'grip' my viola and it keeps sliding off my shoulder. My current shoulder rest keeps falling off if I have it in the position I need it.. or if it's fixed securely it's too far along my shoulder and the whole viola slides off.

So I tried playing without anything and the first thing I noticed was the difference in sound of my viola!!! Quite different. The jury is out on whether I think it's better though. I should have tried a cloth or sponge but had nothing handy so it was just sitting on my collar bone. Although I'm by no means skinny it did hurt the bone.

However my viola still felt insecure and I had started the dreaded thumb grip again.

So tomorrow I am off to try out new shoulder rests (and shhh.. also new violas ) so I'm interested to see how this thread continues...

the only thing I want to say and especially to Lottie:
it takes time and patience
the 'death grip' problem is IMPOSSIBLE to have when you play with no shoulder rest, playing with no shoulder rest cures it!
I repeat: it takes time and patience
also please go to this web page which although talk about violin, will apply also to viola I believe:
http://rkviolin.com/writ_fund_one.html

at least for the bit where it tells you about putting your left hand on right shoulder and blah blah to form a shelf for the violin, that bit really really 'lit the light bulb' for me and made all the difference to help me go 'rest-less'

shifting takes time and patience, I can shift very well all over the fingerboard now, no problem, the secret is to RELAX all over your body especially the left hand of course and give just a little nod with your chin on chin rest and of course time and practice practice practice as although now I can play slower pieces like the Meditation with no shoulder rest, if I had to play some very fast piece with shifting all over I am sure I'd be hesitant but there again it's only TEN days I've been TOTALLY rest-less with no sponge and nothing at all! after 4 years with a shoulder rest you can't expect me to do all the gymmicks with no rest in 10 days

there is a lot of advice out there but you have to look hard for it and often it is best to go slowly from shoulder rest to nothing, like to use a sponge for a few weeks and then make the sponge thinner and then eventually ditch it LOL I did this but rather quickly I used a sponge but very quickly got FED UP with it could not stand it anymore!!! funny isn't it???

At the end of the day I think 'one knows' when they want/need to go rest-less, deep down they know, at least most people know, I knew anyway, I knew for a long time, I kept having this little voice inside me all the time that kept saying 'ditch it ditch it ditch it ditch it' but kept fighting it as I was 'too scared' to go into the UNKNOWN and it was just so easy to stick with what I knew even though it was hurting me

I know that I 'should' be able to play without a shoulder rest, but I don't seem to be able to. I'm fine with a shoulder rest, but get neck pain and shoulder pain without the shoulder rest and then end up with a sore arm/wrist. I keep trying every couple of weeks because I know that people are supposed to play without one, but I really don't seem to be able to. My teacher doesn't have a problem with me using a shoulder rest, thinks my set up is fine and has told me not to worry about it - but I know that it's something everyone is meant to be able to do...

I don't see where the problem is Flossie, is there a problem?

your teacher is happy, you don't actually have a problem playing with a rest (you actually mention a problem playing WITHOUT right?), you don't seem to have a 'desire' to play without a rest, so it sounds to me you are actually in a perfect situation already right?
(correct me if I am reading your post wrong though by all means)
so.....don't give yourself a problem carry on as you are

if someone told you that 'people are meant to be able to play without a shoulder rest' then I think that someone might have mislead you a little bit, that is a little bit too much of a generalisation. Ok, maybe in general many people 'can' play without one BUT certainly DO NOT make it YOUR problem Flossie ok? and certainly not if you don't have a problem to begin with

Okay, just went through a full 2 hour orchestra rehearsal without a shoulder rest. What I observed was that there seemed to be less tension in my right shoulder (which was good!) but sometimes my left shoulder felt a bit tight, like I was trying to prevent the viola "slipping around". I'm thinking some sort of cloth padding might resolve this? Maybe? Will see what I can do...

I can play without a shoulder rest, and did for a few years when mine went missing and I couldn't find a decent replacement (the brand I used are not made anymore ).
But I prefer to use one. I think my posture is better with one, and the hold more secure, especially if I'm playing for hours or something that whizzes up and down the fingerboard.
Each to their own.

Perhaps some well-meaning person has misled you. Everyone's physical structure is different. Shoulder rests suit some people but not others. Chin rest setup is possibly even more important, and yet is often overlooked completely. I agree with Jojo - don't try to play without a shoulder rest if you're happy and comfortable with one, as you might end up giving yourself problems.

As for me, I use a shoulder rest, have always done so, and I like it. Besides, if I didn't have a shoulder rest in my case I'd have to find some other means of keeping my pencils from rattling round inside.

I agree completely with viola-mad, there are some people out there that get very snooty about shoulder rests, and for no valid reason.
Do whatever suits you best

My case is not that roomy. I have to wedge the shoulder rest right up against one side of it which creates a nice snug spot for my pencil. The pocket at the end is only big enough for my rosin, practice mute and a few pegs.

LOL sorry, when I first read your post I missed the word 'case' and I wondered where were those pencils rattling!!! for a minute I thought they were in your upper body

actually, re-reading the post I did not miss the word 'case' I did read it, I just thought you were saying 'in my case' like meaning in your circumstances

I thought the pencils were inside the viola...

I'm going to run away shortly!!

It could make for some interesting effects!

An Alexander Teacher once tried to get me playing without a shoulder rest, but the violin felt really insecure. I'm happy to say that I won.

I just wanted to say:

the instrument feeling insecure is a totally normal thing when you first start out and it takes time for that to 'go away'. It will take different people different length of times to adapt to play without a rest but eventually when you do adapt you will actually feel your instrument to be quite secure and you will even forget you don't have a shoulder rest anymore
that's what's happened to me! it's only ten days I have started to play with no rest and I now actually forget I haven't got a shoulder rest anymore I even forget it's my left hand holding the violin up I think it's hilarious when in the past I tried and I felt the violin was so unstable and insecure I straight away got my shoulder rest back on and breathed a big sigh of relief !!! (only to then go back to my nagging problems and then wanting/wishing to be rest-free again )

Now, I am not saying this to convince Misterioso to go rest-free ok? absolutely NOT, I will never dare to push anyone one way or another, Misterioso is happy and that's the way we like things, happy violinists/violists is what we want, I just wanted to say that it is normal for the violin to feel insecure and be rather unstable when one first tries and I am saying this for those people who DO want to go rest free so that they don't get discouraged like I did in the past, that's all


I'll listen out for those pencils rattling

Just watched that video and some others from that user, they're interesting, but I was quite interested by the shoulder rest paint experiment - do other people find the same as this girl, in that not all of the shoulder rest is used?
I've just been doing a similar experiment of my own which has been pretty interesting... first of all, all of the surface of my shoulder rest is against my shoulder/chest and slightly more heavily resting at the lower end, but with not much difference of pressure across the width, if that makes sense?
I also looked at where my shoulder rest was during different times in my practice session and I think I might have finally cracked the issue I've been having with tension in my left shoulder - As I play, I tend to naturally slouch/relax a little and looking at it, as this happens the top end of my s/r moves down and along so that the end is resting on my shoulder rather than the end of my collar bone, so I'm tensing my shoulder in order to try and support my violin. I'm not exactly sure what the solution to this is, other than not to slouch , but it's good to know why it's happening

As to not using a shoulder rest, I've tried it a few times and really haven't got on too well, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it 'right' - should your actual shoulder be touching the violin at all?
Anyway, I don't have too many problems using one, so I might as well stick to that for now - really interesting thread though

if by shoulder you mean the very tip of your shoulder (ie the 'rotator cuff') then no...
it's a bit difficult to say with just words, would a video help? or a photo?
how can I describe it, if I talk about a female violinist, 'imagine' the female wearing no top just a bra (ooooerrrr ) by shoulder do you mean the bit from the bra strap to the arm? that bit should NOT touch the violin
if you want to see how I hold the violin with no shoulder rest you can look at me playing a VERY BAD out of tune and horrible Meditation from Thais full of shaky bows
you can play it with no sound that will help a LOT
here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXlCVLFT0Zw

ps I can't believe I have just posted that link

That was lovely Jojo!! A few wobbles admittedly, but on the whole very secure, and a difficult piece to pull off well!! Really enjoyed listening to that!

you're very kind
in my defence I'd like to say:
it's a piece I had not played in SIX months, I only brushed it up an hour the night before
I have played with no shoulder rest ONLY for 8 days by that day
it was only my 2nd performance in public (if you count exams then my fourth)
so I think if we take the 3 above excuses into consideration I feel a little better about myself

ps also the video is not 'centred' as we didn't ask the accompanist whether we had permission to video him so it would not have been fair to do so, it was a last minute 'rushed' video LOL

Definitely an excellent performance based on that then!!! Well Done!!

My daughter plays without a shoulder rest. She is 12 and having found a conventional one very uncomfortable. she had a play-on-air inflatable pad for a while, but having realised that lots of the greatest violinists of the 20th C didn't use one, she decided not to, and hasn't looked back. She loves being able to just pick up her violin, and play with no fuss.

To be honest, though, it rather depends on your physiology. If you have a very long neck (she doesn't) I imagine it could be rather uncomfortable.

That's going really well with no shoulder rest!
Meditation sounded lovely - as Muzikalbadger says, difficult to bring off well. Yes you had bow wobbles, but I find there is something about that piece that makes it prone to bow wobbles in the first place - it's the need for long drawn out bows on quiet notes that causes it, coupled with nerves.

And don't forget jojo, you had several weeks of practising very little of anything due to the pain you had!

Flossie - I can't do it either. And to be quite honest - I don't want to! You play well with a shoulder rest, why jeopardise that by having to re-learn things? It's all down to personal preference.

Whilst I'm very happy for anyone who feels that playing without a shoulder rest is beneficial, I'm not about to move over to the other side. It took me too many years to get to feeling 'competent' to risk going backwards.

People often mention that short necked people could manage without a shoulder rest, but I have a short neck and I feel as if I need a S/R. It could be because I have a slight scoliosis (who doesn't?) that causes my neck and head to lean to the right. Playing the violin forces my head and neck to tilt over to the left which probably explains why after more than an hour of playing my neck kills me. I dread to think what it would be like if I didn't use a S/R. (And yes I do go for regular bone crunching sessions to sort things out, but the body has a habit of going back to where it started from).

[quote name='karslima%2


Just interested in your last comment, Karslima - I was talking to a violin friend the other day who has used an osteopath here and there for years, but she said for some reason the good effects last for less time each time now. Is this a common problem do you know?

The best thing for each individual is always to do what they feel is right for them at that moment in time given their individual situation, taking into consideration also what resources they have available to them (financial, professional advice, material, etc and so on).

One should try to achieve 'ideally' a situation where they can play pain/tension free with no impediments to their technique, so we aim for this as much as we can right?

whether this is with a shoulder rest, without, with a sponge, with a sling, or whatever, does it really matter? not really at the end of the day

some of us use Alexander Technique, some chiropractors, some osteopaths, some yoga, some a combination of these and other aids and so on

some of us spend years or a whole lifetime trying to discover what works best, some never discover it

Interesting about what the violinist Miffy knows said about the osteopath....
the osteopath I have recently seen about my upper back 'problem' has just 'fixed' my problem and he said my problem will never come back, not unless I have another traume (meaning an accident). I shall certainly keep you informed. Miffy, has this violinist told you the cause of her problem? some people have a disfunctional problem from birth or other cause, mine was from an accident, so the cause can also make a difference as to whether the problem can 'sprout' again.....

I can sympathise with the feeling that Karslima has about not wanting to 'go backwards' if making the decision to ditch the shoulder rest, I had this fear too and I am only maybe grade 6 in my ability! I was surprised to actually find out I didn't go backwards at all
STILL, one really HAS to want to go shoulder 'rest-less' to do it, so I would not tell karslima to do it or anyone else to do it, they have to have it in them, if the desire is not there do not it there's no point in doing it just to prove a point or just because you have a short neck, that would be 'silly' I think

Jojo, this lady fell off a horse about 20 years ago, and after the initial injuries were healed she thought no more of it at the time, but gradually started to have problems, especially when playing violin. She teaches full time and does a fair amount of orchestral playing. She just happened to mention it the other day, so reading Karslima's post just now reminded me. I don't actually know what her injuries were at the time though.

ouch

When I started learning viola, I was given a sponge and thats how I first learned to play but then I got a bit fed up of feeling like a child with a sponge and elastic band so then I acquired my first shoulder rest and played totally happy for ages until recently.

I used to play with my viola fairly forwards facing but then realised my shoulder rest was basically just on my front (and making fingering harder than it had to be!) so I decided to play around with my shoulder rest and how I hold my viola and I found that I like my viola more sideways and that me and my shoulder rest were just NOT getting on as it was just either uncomfortable if I played for too long or it was just downright painful! (hence it's now hidden in shame in my desk!) so for the last few days I've just gone without shoulder rest and just only used a centimeter thick sponge and it has been ok actually! Even though I can feel the increased pressure, it's still comfortable!

Now I'm not sure whether or not to try a different shoulder rest! (im kind of in the middle here) Though some time soon I'm expecting receive a viola viola (not a violin tuned wrong as people like to keep teasing me! damn the local music service not having any bigger ones left ) so I guess I should wait until then as my shoulder rest needs might change with a bigger and heavier instrument! Except no music stores around here will have viola shoulder rests to try, ah well, worth an ask! just need viola to arrive now...

naughty bitey dangerous things been on one once, and it might partly have been my fault too...but never getting on one again

I think you should certainly wait until you get the real viola - a violin sr is unlikely to fit it. Also if you are trying out rests, consider the Playonair where you can adjust the height a bit by blowing it up more or less hard.

Thanks for the suggestion, will check it out I have a viola shoulder rest already that shrinks down to 4/4 violin size (in anticipation of eventually getting a bigger viola) which is exactly the problem you mentioned in reverse!! so for now shoulder restless until bigger viola (who knows, it may work fine for me with a bigger instrument!)

Sorry, I know this is but I just had to comment. Jojo, I'm really struck by how comfortable and confident you look. Your posture when you're playing looks like that of somebody who has been playing much longer. And it looks like you are playing from memory too - very brave!! Nice work.

hehehehe, it's not too much off topic as it's about 'shoulder rests and not shoulder rests' blah blah
but thank you for your feedback, much appreciated
it looks like I am playing from memory because I AM
I absolutely refuse to perform unless I perform from memory, to me if I don't perform from memory than I don't know a piece well enough hence it is not up to performance standard. Please note: I said TO ME I know others may be different, but I know myself really well, if I have studied/practiced a piece well enough I will just remember it, infact I will just stop looking at the music anyway, even at home!
Looking at the music will then just detract me away from 'being with the music' and I will not be able to give it my full self if I can make any sense here.....

as for my posture when you say I look like someone who has been playing much longer do you mean much longer without a shoulder rest? or much longer than 4 years? I have been learning violin for 4 years and been playing 4 years with a shoulder rest and 8 days without a shoulder rest. I agree with you that I am myself quite 'shocked' by how quickly I have 'picked up' playing without a shoulder rest (I have to say I was using a sponge for a couple of weeks before these 8 days....still quite impressed though....
BUT I really had a STRONG desire/determination in me to do it, I also THOROUGHLY researched the non shoulder rest subject and posture/technique and have contacted some professional players over the world for advice on technique and posture too to make sure I was doing the right thing.
Of course maybe the determination was a big big factor??

Shoulder rest or not, you just look really comfortable. Some poor souls look like they are tying themselves up in knots when they play, whether that's because they are consciously thinking "must remember to do such-and-such with that hand" or whatever, or whether they just have some unusual way of standing or holding the instrument/bow. I would not have known you'd been playing without a shoulder rest for such a short time if you hadn't said.

'cool'

ps if you go in my youtube account you can see the video of a performance prior to that one, done in Leeds in January 2011, in that one I was using a shoulder rest and a heightened chin rest, you can then see if you think I look less comfortable and more contorted or equally comfortable
(I know how I feel..... )

I'm not sure I can say whether it is a common situation, I can only speak for myself. I've been seeing chiropractors and osteopaths for years. At least my osteopath is trying to increase the time between visits so she isn't a money grabber, but I've been to others who suggested that I would need treatment every two weeks with no end date in sight. I think our bodies settle into a way of working so even if the osteo/chiro straightens things out then it all shifts back again over a period of weeks or months.