I'm not trying to start a "[genre1] is better than genre2]" holy war here. This was prompted by having Radio 3 on this morning and an opera programme came on. My instinct was to change the channel, but I didn't - it was about how many operas end with the female soloist dying, and the reasons for this. It was really interesting.

(This also isn't meant to slag off any genre in particular - just because I don't like it stuff doesn't mean I think it ought not to exist)

It was the initial instinct to change the channel that made me think of this. I have had the opportunity to listen to lots of opera, having been a music student, but I just don't really like it. Musically it does not do much for me.

I think I ought to like it, though, because it's a pretty important genre in Western musical history. It might be that I am listening with the wrong emphasis or I just don't get it or I don't know enough about it to get it. I *appreciate* it, but I don't really like it.

Anyone got any ideas for how to approach music like this? Anyone got any other similar experiences?

I also feel as though I ought to know a bit more about Chinese music as those are supposedly my roots, but it doesn't do anything for me either.

Lastly it's also occurred to me that maybe no matter how much I intellectualise about opera or Chinese traditional music, I'll never like either, the same way I keep trying booze (see the alcohol thread ) and just don't like the taste. That would be OK too, but I feel as though I ought to think about it a bit more (music, not booze ) before writing it off altogether.

In the past I've been made to feel that I don't listen to the 'right' sort of music ('right' as defined by the 'establishement'). These days, I tend to not be bothered by it - I'm sure I don't listen to the music I 'ought' to and I certainly don't write the music I 'ought' to.

I think it's all part of a journey of discovery - I like things now which I wouldn't have touched a couple of years ago - these things seem to just evolve gradually - the worst thing for me has been trying to listen to things because I feel I 'ought' to - it just puts me off even more.

I think the most important thing is to always be open to new things.

You have a soul mate here Corenfa. I too have never been an opera fan, though I have been to see a few, and watched some on tele. I'm into Orchestral, Piano, Chamber, Instrumental, and Choral..everything except Opera, it just doesn't do anything for me! . It's been like that for all of my life. ! And Im into all periods of music from pre baroque right to recently composed works (James McMillan, Trygve Madsen, Thomas Ades)

Hi corenfa,

I share your dislike of opera, but my answer to your question may well be negative from your point of view.
Music I dislike, I do not wish to approach, and I don't see any reason why I should. The older I get the more I realise that trying to like something because you think you 'ought' to do is a sham : feigning a love or liking for something because it is the 'done thing' is pretentious and I totally abhor pretence. We all have different tastes and unless they harm others there is no reason to be ashamed of them. So, unless you have strong feelings in 'liking' what you think you 'ought' to like, I recommend that you continue to follow your natural tastes. Life is too short to spend time trying to learn or like something you naturally dislike.

Best wishes in whatever you decide.
rk

I don't think it's particularly useful to categorise music in that way and say I like X and hate Y.

I'm not a huge opera fan, there are many, many I'm sure I wouldn't be terribly bothered about missing, but there are some I absolutely love and would listen to or watch time and again. The same goes for any other genre. So I would guess that you haven't yet come across the opera that would open the door for you.

I would also suggest that opera is very much a live event. Listening to a CD or watching a DVD doesn't quite do the job. That said, the operas I have enjoyed most have come from hearing the music first. Not necessarily the whole thing, but just those "usual suspects", the suites, interludes, etc. though sometimes just a special moment.

With Wagner's ring cycle it was a Klaus Tennstedt record of extracts, with Britten's Peter Grimes it was hearing just the final "mad" scene of Peter on the beach.

Of course there is the option of just leaping in to see what happens. Some years ago I got ?3 standing tickets to see Don Giovanni. It was a bit of a trial (the standing) but it was good. On the same tour was a contemporary opera "Cornet Cristoph Rilke's Songs of Love and Death" by Siegfried Matthus. There were plenty of tickets so I decided to go. It was broadcast on Radio 3 the previous evening and I gave it a listen and came away wondering if I had just wasted my money. But, in the event, it was a fabulous spectacle and I would love to see it again.

Mind you, I often find that with live performances. A piece of music I've not rated very highly or struggled with, comes into its own when heard live.

Completely agree with the need to see opera live in a theatre, I find watching it on TV a total turn off, and I'm too distractable to just listen & make any sense of it.

So - since you seem to want to get into opera, I'd ask you what the nearest thing to opera is that you do like.

Do you like musical theatre, ballet, choral works, historical novels? What period of music appeals to you most? What is it that turns you off opera?

If it's the big, 'Wagnerian' vibrato-laden voices that put you off, how about trying something a bit earlier? A bit of baroque opera in a small venue with a specialist company. Or if it's the stupid plot lines (plenty of those around!), try something like Britten's Gloriana (based on the life of Elizabeth I - don't know if it's actually on anywhere at the moment but it made a big impact on me when I saw it years ago). If it's the fact that you don't know what they're on about anyway, get yourself to English National Opera at the Coliseum - all their productions are done in English.

Definitely go and see the best production you can manage though (and don't worry - it's not as expensive as some people would have you believe), and make an event of it.

I agree, some excellent points in KTViola's post if I may say so.

Opera is not my favourite genre, but there are some that I like very much.

String quartets, on the other hand .................

I concur with the 'live' aspect.

I have minimal interest in opera, but when I've seen one live, with all the theatre, drama, staging and atmosphere I can enjoy it.

(That said, the last time though was a bit of a headache: I was in Germany, the actors were singing in Italian and the subtitles were in very high German. I still enjoyed the music and the theatre, but can honestly say I have no idea as to the plot!)

In a similar way, I enjoy ballet, but find it boring on TV and the music on its own... okay for background noise when I'm working? If I go out to a production, with lots to watch and real musicians (ballet to a CD is less engaging) then I have a really good time.

Perhaps, in a similar way for other genres, going to concerns is a way forward. If the music is still doing nothing for you, there are always other diversions like watching for second violinists who have got lost (that is the reason there are so many of them, right ) and counting how many times the conductor stops beating anything remotely helpful....

Poulenc. I've been told that as a wind player, his flute and clarinet sonatas are 'must plays', but I'm afraid I really can't see the attraction...

There are some operas I love - and these are largely the ones I have experienced live - so this validates the idea of going to see them. Most however bore me, and I am put off by the 'warbling' opera style.

When I went to NYC I was lucky enough to get tickets for the Met. It was Gounod's Faust which was an absolute fave of my parents, so I sort of knew the story and some of the arias - however this didn't stop falling asleep through most of it My excuse is I was jet lagged, tho I am sure I would not have slept through Peter Grimes.

On the other hand string quartets

Wow, some excellent replies have appeared while my curry has been cooking, thanks all!

I suppose I'm not really after any sort of "legitimisation" of my lack of like for opera - I just was thinking about why I didn't like it, and wanting to give it another chance. If I turn out not to like it after trying a lot, that'll just be the way it is, but I've often found that I give something (food and books usualy) a second go and then I think, why didn't I try that a lot sooner??

KTViola, thanks for the good suggestions. It actually is the heavy vibrato style of singing that turns me off, particularly in the female voice. The plot lines and lack of language ability aren't it And now that I think a bit harder I can actually think of opera performances that I have been to and did enjoy. I have never enjoyed opera on the radio or listening to recordings and that might be why I've been left cold by it, too many hours in the music library listening to it through headphones.

All of you who have suggested watching it live, that is the point I've been missing. I saw an excellent production of Madame Butterfly in the round at the Albert Hall and I didn't notice any screechy singing because the spectacle of the production was fun to watch.

Barry - I do love the Poulenc wind music, all of it, and I love it because it seems so emotionally ambiguous. I can never decide whether it is sad or happy, and because I think so much of life is like that, I really identify with it.

Seer_Green - interesting point you make about not writing the music you "ought to"! I studied composition for a bit and used to get a bit of stick for not liking the atonal style. I said that when I'd run out of things to write tonally I might look further afield. And once I got told that if I would write music "more like an Asian female" I might get somewhere. I have *no* idea what that is supposed to mean.

My last statement about atonal music has made me realise something - I have absolutely no desire to get into it and I don't even feel like trying I wonder why I am willing to give opera a second chance and not atonality.

Perhaps that's part of the problem with it for me : it just comes over to me as being a bit cold and, dare I say it, directionless...

I can see how it could be seen as directionless - I've often thought that it can be a bit rambly, harmony- and form-wise. However I love the melodies so that tips it in the other direction for me.

I'd just not push the issue, one way or the other - I am also not a fan of opera, or indeed of anything much with agonised wobbliato singing in it, but can tolerate a certain amount of Tallis-sort of singing reasonably well. Something I have found though is that I can listen to less favourite genres if my mood is right, and sometimes can also then manage "more of similar" for a bit - ie at times when I don't need to fall back to my comfort zone, I can extend what I'll listen to, happily. That has meant that over time, I've had spell when I can listen to Britten, or Schumann, Tschaikovsky or Brahms when normally these might just have me going bleh, and finding other stuff.

So - if you can stand Lieder, maybe listen to some of those to get into the mood, and perhaps extend that to listening to vocal duets. Alternatively, listen to some Mozart, then perhaps some Mozart churchy stuff, then perhaps one of his light hearted operas - or indeed only the odd aria from one. Ultimately though there is no shame in having preferences, and I don't see why you should have to pretend if you really don't care for a genre - it leaves all the more for those who do (and likewise, I'm not bothered if people don't like Bach - I do, and that's all that matters to me).

Not as many good tunes in atonality as there are in your average opera

You're in London - get yourself down to St Martin's Lane & see some live operas!

As for those string quartets that maggiemay's struggling with - I can understand that. It's the most fabulous sort of group to play in, but I can't see the attraction of sitting quietly and listening without being allowed to join in. I absolutely love playing quartets, but I can guarantee that if you sit me in a chamber music recital, I'm going to be asleep in no time. Well - unless the performers are either stonkingly good, or people I know, or I've had several strong coffees first.

For me... Vivaldi.

It's not that I don't really like Vivaldi but a lot of his music sounds rather the same to my ignorant ears. This is something I need to "get over" as I am losing out on a significant chunk of oboe repertoire. There are one or two pieces I really do quite like and it makes a difference when I actually play it for myself, so I guess I just need to get down to work...

That makes two of us, then. I have actually played some Vivaldi that I liked, but it was a church piece with a chorus. It gave me the idea that he had two styles of composition: flashy stuff with lots of scales and arpeggios that the girls of the Ospedale could play with great brio, so as to be noticed by a potential rich husband; and serious works, to be heard by a critical audience, for whom he tried harder and wrote counterpoint

I may land up showing my ignorance of chamber music here, in which case feel free to... erm... re-educate me. I was under the impression a lot of the repetoire was designed either for background music (like we might put on a CD quietly while chatting with friends) or for dancing to. Surely it should come as no suprise to anyone, then, that it might be intollerable dull to just listen to (even in a concert)? I think it maybe needs appreciating in its original context!

I wonder if it's something to do with the "journey" thing?

To be honest, I don't listen to a lot of classical music, not because I don't like it but because of the limited time available and the wealth of great music out there.

I do listen to a lot of jazz. When I first started to get into it I was fairly non-discriminatory about what I tried to listen to. So, for example, I bought John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" because it was such an important recording. But I didn't get it at all. Then, quite a few years later, I listened to it again and I understood what all the fuss was about, but I needed the intervening years of listening and experience to get to that point.

My dad sort of likes jazz. I think he'd like to like it more. In the days of theJazz digital radio station I bought him a digital radio as a birthday present and he ended up listening to theJazz for an hour or so every day, and it was perfect for him because it was a mix of the sort of stuff he already enjoyed - big band, swing, Ella Fitzgerald with the occasional more challenging piece thrown in. Taking some advice he'd given me many years earlier ("If you're not sure what to buy someone, buy them something you'd like yourself"), for a more recent present I bought him a boxed set of DVDs - Ken Burns Jazz. It's a history of jazz, and if that's the sort of thing you're into quite fascinating, for the social history as much as the musical. He'd never really enjoyed bebop much before, but he said that after watching the episode about bebop he started to understand it and could appreciate and enjoy it much more than he had.

So, in rather a long-winded fashion, I wonder if you've tried to arrive at the destination "opera" without doing the journey you need to really appreciate it.

You're right about the journey, TSax - I remember after hearing the entirety of that Radio 3 programme about the sociological and psychological reasons that some people think explain why operatic heroines die, opera did have another dimension to it. I did use to feel like it was all a bit sterotypical, some lady does a lot of yelling and then expires (please nobody pillory me for this, I am making fun of myself here...).

I'm not terribly fond of most string quartets myself I really cannot tell any of the Mozarts and Beethovens apart. I like the Ravel though.

And I think I may feel the way about Scarlatti the way some people feel about Vivaldi.

Dear oh dear. Im not a wind player but I love all Poulencs wind music and have a complete set !

The oboe sonata.....

Poulenc wrote some gorgeous choral works and songs. I don't know if there is anything for counter tenor though

I think you make a great point TSax. I always reckoned one type of music I would never appreciate was Country and Western. Then (for some reason I can't recall) I read a wonderful book called "In the Country of Country" which describes the history of Country music and its social context. That and putting together the links from Irish, Scots, English folk and Bluegrass and Blues, suddenly made the music so much more than white, trailer park trash fodder.

I still don't get A Love Supreme though.

Get Thee To Glyndebourne! I was really only going for the picnic, but it was such an uplifting experience even my husband (who was only going for me) was bowled over.

Seeing a live performance in such a perfect setting really let the skill of the performers shine through, and we were in awe of their wonderful voices.

Since then, I've found myself listening more attentively to opera, and I'm generally much less likely to switch channels. However, I will always be an opera lightweight I suspect - more "highlights of" or "most famous arias" from, and sticking to the easy ones, rather than Wagner box sets!

I think I might just have to go and listen to it now!

A fair point but I think music as background is probably a medieval to renaissance use (progressing I suppose into the Baroque). Come classical onwards, I think it's predominantly for close scrutiny - Beethoven's Late Quartets are not dinner party music.

Mind you, there has always been music for specific purposes such as dancing - up to and including trance and techno and whatever there is now. I always thought bopping to pop songs was spectacularly stupid.


Well I may be a (novice) wind player now, but the love of the string quartet I developed some 30 odd ears ago hasn't left me. I think it's a perfect ensemble and the one often used to express a composers deepest feelings.

Oh I think the Romanza (2nd movement of the Clarinet sonata) is emotional. Sounds so haunting ....






This applies to me too but when in Sicily I decided that we "needed" to go to the opera in the outdoor setting here:


Sitting way up the back on hard stone seats (the modern seats at the front were not there then.)

It was long and uncomfortable (wished we'd taken more padding) BUT .... It was amazing!!!
We saw Bizet's Carmen in French. I'm nowhere near fluent in French having only done a few years of French in school and I wished I knew more of the story but got into picking out enough to understand what was happening.

One over riding memory is that none of the performers or Orchestra were miked up and the start of Act 2 (?) opens with a solo flute ..... The sound just carried ....

So agree with the seeing it live aspect. Maybe in an unusual setting. I like some of the operatic arias so long as there's not a lot of "wobbliato" but it never will be my favourite genre.


edit: That's massive!!!! Sorry

Nope, that doesn't do it for me either

too.
My 'difficult' area is much of the nineteenth century Romantic repertoire. I tend to go for the eastern European stuff (Russian, Czech) over the German. A lot of it to me is obvious, predictable and repetitive. I'm much more at home with baroque or twentieth century music.

My Poulenc views seem to put me in a minority of one

BerkshireSon was first given Poulenc's Romanza when he was 14 to look at over a holiday. I remember telling the teacher after said holiday that it was a pity she had given him such awful music at such a young age, as I thought it might put him off learning clarinet!

Teacher was more than shocked - she obviously thought me a complete Philistine.

I must admit that over the years since then I have learned to quite like Poulenc, but it was a struggle for me, so I can see where you are coming from, Barry! Actually, my son has never got to like it either, although he played movements from the Clarinet Sonata for both grade 7 and grade 8 because his teacher thought it essential repertoire. I don't think I've ever heard him play it since!

I'm in a minority of two

Three! My friend loves Poulenc and she's always telling me about how amazing the Poulenc flute sonata is, so I tried to listen to it and I just didn't know why she liked it. When she played part of it in our GCSE music lesson at school, I enjoyed it slightly more, probably because it was live, and I did think she played it very well, but I still didn't like the actual piece!


The other one for me is Debussy's piano music. I'm probably on my own for this one! The only one I actually like is Clair de Lune, but I don't want to learn it because it's so famous and everybody learns it! On the other hand, I do like Debussy's orchestral stuff.

I'm a pianist and I don't like all of Debussy's piano music - I like the earlier works, or the later ones which have a melody. I'm not that fond of the ones in which the piano is used just for sound effects. I know that it takes tremendous technical skill to pull it off, and I am in awe of people who can do it, but emotionally it doesn't do anything for me.

I generally refer to Polenc as 'Plonk', which may indicate my.. ambivelent attitudes.

That said, I prefer listening to his music than playing it. I don't find I can communicate much with it, myself, which combined with the technical traumas... nope would much rather listen to someone do it well!

but utterly beautiful. No apologies needed .

Thankyou.... and isn't it just!!

We saw the evening showing so experienced a sunset just like this one.

They are not my pictures - I pulled them from some tourist sites. It's teh Teatro Greco in Taormina, Sicily

It reminded me of the Minack Theatre in Cornwall. I love watching dance and Shakespeare productions there when a mist is rolling it. Its so atmospheric.

http://www.minack.com/

Another one indifferent to opera here and while I could enjoy the spectacle of some live opera, musically it does nothing for me . I also don't like Weber very much although there will be many other clarinet players who will think this a bit strange

I have to admit I am not blown over by music from the "French School", despite their huge contribution to rescuing the oboe from the classic-romantic doldrums. I went to a concert early in the heady days when I had just realised I was completely in love with the oboe and was treated to a menu of Poulenc, Ravel, D?bussy, Dutilleux and the like. It really didn't "grab" me - though the Poulenc was more interesting than the rest. Actually, I am looking forward one day to being able to get my teeth into the Poulenc oboe sonata as playing something usually helps me appreciate it more.

I was the same up to last year. My mother hated opera and would turn it off everytime it came on the radio. I grew up with an inbuilt hatred of it on this basis, I loved orchestral, instrumental etc music but solo singing? Nope.

Then last year daughter started singing lessons, and came home with her first aria. Beautiful! Then a few weeks later I started lessons and came home with 5! 7 months on I am really starting to appreciate opera and Lieder too (ahh, love some of those), and will watch them happily. Still prefer the lighter Mozart operas at the moment, and I think it all comes from familiarity.

There was a series of great programs last year on BBC4, talking about opera from Monteverdi all the way through to much later. It captured our imagination, the presenter was the director of a big british opera house and had so much enthusiasm it was infectious. Maybe that is a starting point, if they are ever repeated, they are seriously worth a watch.

I do like Poulenc but don't think you should listen to too much at a sitting; you'd get bored with his tune... (did you see the Sacred Music series where one of the expert commentatorrs really dissed Poulenc? he did have a point!)

At a performance of Les Biches my companion said to me "I do agree with whoever said about this ballet "there's less to it than meets the eye"..."

No, i totally get why people like Poulenc.

There are some operas which I can listen to, others which I have to see.

vivaldi is not first rate.

I can leave out all music pre-1765 and not miss it unless it's Bach's B minor mass. A small amount of early baroque i can handle, but a little goes a long way.

Brass bands.

I used to dislike "operatic" singing when Iwas very young. I am not so blinkered now - there are places for many different styles of singing.

So what "ought" I to like? small scale performances of Bach. Nope, not for me. Instruments have IMPROVED over the years...

No, for me it's just Poulenc : the rest of the French School are fine

I had a strong dislike of operatic style singing when a friend introduced me to Peter Grimes by Benjamin Britten. Even then, the first time I heard it I felt a bit disturbed, but I still recognised that were some good bits in it. I was intrigued and found that with each listening, more and more parts stuck out until it gradually started to make sense. I felt that I had the 'big picture'. Then I moved on to a stage (perhaps after listening to it about ten times) where I didn't have the big picture at all and each time I heard it there were more things to discover - the significance of one line, the depth of emotion, and of course the music.

Having discovered there were more Britten operas to enjoy I bought several box sets and was pleased to find more enjoyment - Turn of the Screw, Billy Budd, Mid Summer Nights Dream. I was excited that there was a whole musical genre to be discovered!

Then I hit the hard times. Although Monteverdi and Purcell pushed the right buttons, I couldn't take a lot of the romantic 19th century operas that are held up as the real thing. I can't say I'm particularly moved by Wagner either. Unfortunately I don't think it helps that most opera is written in foreign language which means that we lose out on the storyline and its nuances.

Anyway what I'm saying is that opera covers a wide range of musical periods, and you don't have to like all of them. I would encourage people to be open minded and not write it off as difficult.

I'm not in a position to lecture because I fail to appreciate Mozart, Schumann, Schubert, Chopin, Mahler. But especially Mozart. I'm missing something there and it's not for the lack of trying.

Another thing, although I play the violin I'm not a fan of virtuoso violin concertos, such as Bruch and Mendelssohn. They just seem to go on and on like an annoying jazz solo. Give me a good piece of orchestral music any day.

I enjoy Poulenc. Totally agree with Dawn about the Romanza, it's haunting. I actually think the music is very emotional if played in a certain way - not a "notes on page" type way.

My mum used to HATE me playing it, I just thought she didn't "get" it...as not a musician etc. but my partner I don't think he likes it either, then again he's an Organist who studied Bach ... who I'm not a massive fan of!! He HATES Mozart with a passion too ... I absolutely adore Mozart

Barry - any events not too far from Derbyshire on this year ... or perhaps I'll just have to organise one? I would love to start playing in public again (OT, I know!) You seem to have so many great events in London

I feel similar, and have always felt incredibly guilty about it too! I can't explain why I would enjoy playing it so much and yet have so little interest in listening to it.

Or if one of them is really nice-looking

I can also relate to a lot of the comments about opera on this thread. But it's not so much that I feel I "ought to" like it and more that I ought not to write it off. I'm perfectly happy to be open to it, but I just don't think I've found the right way in to enjoying and/or appreciating it. The one thing I have decided is that concert opera is not for me. I can't see the point in taking the visual aspect out of it.

On the subject of operatic stuff... I was never really into it until I recently bought a CD with Elizabeth Watts singing some of Schubert's songs. So many of her renditions are beautiful - I'm lacking sufficient superlatives to explain how much I enjoy listening to her, so now I'll be going to some operas for more of the same sort of thing!

Elizabeth Watts is incredible! She is just amazing live. I heard her in Newbury a few years ago at a lunchtime recital and was absolutely stunned by her singing. Don't pass up any opportunity to hear her live!

Strangely, for someone who sings every day of her life and loves it, I really, really dislike listening to a lot of singing.

I can't stand the sound of an over-produced voice, or vibrato - I don't like most opera or lieder - and I loathe the sound of a big choir.

However, just a very naturally sung and heartfelt folk song has me mesmerised and often in tears...

Odd.