We had our Parent's Evening at school this week and the first thing the teacher asked us was whether we'd looked at secondary schools yet. DS is in Year 5 so we need to apply this Autumn. She went on to say that they'd never known someone move on so fast with an instrument and that we should think about Music Scholarships. DS is only at our local State Primary school, so we're not really sure how big a deal this is or not!! We aren't a musical family and he only started Viola when the Music Trust came into school 2 1/2 years ago.

Anyway, he loves playing and seems to be getting through the grades pretty quickly, (his choice - he thoroughly enjoy doing the exams! - weird ). But he only plays one instrument. He has a very busy life and we thought of him starting another instrument later on, as it would be a real push to fit everything in at the moment. We've heard that to get into our local Independent Boys School (Hampton) that he'd need a second instrument. And even if he did, the scholarship is only between 10 and 20%, with annual fees currently at ?15K plus extras, this still leaves a huge financial commitment. He is having tutoring to get into Tiffin, but being as laid back as he is, he can easily do the work but is 'slow and methodical', so it is a toss up whether he'll be able to speed up enough to get through the entry exams.

Our 2 local state secondary schools aren't particularly musical, but his teacher wants him to audition for the NCO this year, so maybe that would satisfy his musical needs, perhaps with other 'out of school' activities. His ambition is to be an Architect and he hasn't expressed any desire to follow music as a career path.

Any help/ideas?

We had a similar dilemma. Home ed boy is turning out quite musical and our local secondary certainly isn't. He currently does lots of extra-curricular music (and dancing). One of the reasons we decided to home educate for a while was so that he could do all the out of school things without it mattering if he were a bit tired after a weekend away singing, or had a lot on on a week night. In that respect it's worked very well, but he has said he'd like to go to high school (he's currently year six) so we had to think about where. The choices were to go for a scholarship at a nice private school about half an hour's drive away, try for the next nearest secondary which he'd probably have got into on appeal on account of the music, or stick with our local school.

There was much deliberation! He wanted to go to the local school where his friends will be going (and which is 1 minute's walk from our house). His brothers went there and although it's not at all outstanding they have all done very well academically. So the problem is the music. In the end we've gone (still with mixed feelings) for the local school. There's a new music teacher there who is very keen, and also some other reasonably good cellists so hopefully he'll be able to play with them. My main reluctance for going for a different school was that he might lose his interest in music and then we'd have saddled him with a long, tedious journey every day, to say nothing of a huge expense if we'd chosen the private school.

I hope he isn't going to be too tired and I hope he doesn't give up any of his activities. It would be lovely if there were more music in the school so he didn't have to do it mainly out of school but I consider that we're lucky that he has so many music making opportunities. At least with the school being so near there is plenty of time after school to fit in music lesons, practice, homework and so on. While he's had plenty of time at home he's done grade 5 theory (not had the result yet, mind you!) to get it out of the way.

I think your son is probably more committed to his music than ours so you might very well decide differently. Now that we're on our fourth I sometimes feel very laid back and think that maybe it's not so terribly important as long as you're able to give them opportunities appropriate to their needs and interests.

These comments from Banjogirl echo almost exactly my feeling about B1 (who starts at the local comp in September.) We did come in for a lot of pressure from family to consider music scholarships (which seem to vary in size from 10 to 50% depending on the school - and can be topped up by means tested bursaries).

Schools we looked at did not require a second instrument so long as first instrument was orchestral - viola is likely to be welcomed enthuiastically because it is un undersubscribed instrument. A good mark at Grade 4 (assuming he won't have time for Grade 5 before October?) should put him well into the running for many Independent schools (I think the top publics expect more). Good aural skills and above average sight reading are also very important.

I think a lot depends on who else is in the running that year. My neice (who has an academic scholarship at a minor public school) has a girl in her class who came in with multiple Grade 6s and 7s and is therefore at a much higher standard than the Music Scholars 2 and 3 years older!

Remember that a Music Scholar will be expected to take part in all the musical activities that the school offers and this will have to take priority over other things he may want to do (drama, dance, Scouts ...?)

Look into it - you may all fall in love with the perfect school.

I'm so glad we're not the only ones to have taken the local school option. I will be wondering whether we've made the right decision until the day he leaves, I should think. We too had a bit of pressure from family.

Home ed boy will be grade four on two instruments by the end of this term and his cello teacher said he would 'easily' get a music scholarship at the school I mentioned. It's not a fancy school and although it has a lovely music department it isn't a school with loads of orchestras and so on. A different school might well have higher scholarship requirements. I do know from experience that viola players can into places that other instrumentalists could only dream of. Bobifier's teacher (a very excellent viola player, I might add) used to suggest that as long as you owned a viola and could move the bow across it then you would get into most orchestras. So your boy will be way ahead!

A change in the head of music can make a huge difference. A new enthusiastic teacher who is trying to build up the department may well be receptive to students setting up ensembles during their lunchtimes or afterschool even if the official school orchestras are fairly non existent.

We opted out of our local school, which has a dreadful reputation and is heavily undersubscribed. We are lucky to have grammar schools within 17 miles, but it does mean a long journey and whilst it isn't a problem on a day to day basis there are occasions when it is very inconvenient when they have to stay late after school. Until recently there was a very good bus service almost door to door, but it now only runs once an hour and doesn't come nearer than 3 miles from home. As our youngest is in year 7 it is a bit of a disappointment that they have changed the bus route this year and I wonder if I would have looked at other schools if we had known then that they would change it.

With music scholarships, it depends on what else the child is interested in as if you get one you are usually tied into attending certain extra curricular activities. Our daughter (now yr 7) could have got a music scholarship probably- she had her GR 5 violin and gr 2 piano. However, she is a gymnast and that comes first for her. She does go to strings group and string quartet, but that's all. She would resent music if it interfered with her gymnastics.
She does have a bursary as the school wanted her- but it isn't loads.We did send her to a fee paying school (after state primary) and I am really pleased with that choice. She didn't really want to go but is now much happier. Everyone in her class has music lessons. She said she doesn't feel odd for having them now. She is isn't embarrassed to be good at music. She says there are more people like her there (even tho she had a fantastic group of friends in her primary school).
She plays a lot more sport than she did at her old school and than she would at the local comprehensive and she is really enjoying that. The fact that she is good a lot of things is celebrated now....Even though she has music lessons outside of school, she has been fully incorporated in school musical activities.
She has to change schools again soon (prep school system) but we have spoken to the head of prospective school, who agreed that a music scholarship was not the best route for my child as she doesn't want to commit to 5 or 6 musical activities. She will go for academic and all round scholarships (with music included) as then she can miss a concert for a gym competition or match and no one will mind! Beware, when i taught in a comprehnsive, we used to get some excellent ex- music scholars come to us as in their independent school, they couldn't play rugby matches as it clashed with music!

Difficult choices when changing schools, we have just been through it and I am very relieved that the choice is made. My daughter, currently Y6 at prep school won a music scholarship to the senior school, worth 20% of the fees with free music lessons on 2 instruments. She is G7 violin, G5 viola and clarinet, and Grade 3 piano. She already attends most of the senior string groups and orchestras at this school anyway, so knows the school well, likes it a lot, and would probably be very happy there. Facts are that 20% of ?16k+ annually is not very much, and we would be pushed to afford it! To be honest, everything considered we would rather spend the money on music stuff, lessons, instruments, courses etc. We were persuaded to go the scholarship route even though our intention had been to try for the grammar schools, which we are very lucky to have several very good ones nearby. After many sleepless nights and lots of worrying, we have gone with our original plan and opted for the grammar. Had she not passed the 11+ it might have been a different story, but she did and has been allocated one of the best grammar schools in the country. One of the few remaining worries is whether she will have as much time for music with all the homework that they are rumoured to get, but as the school day is considerably shorter than she is used to, hopefully it will all balance out. She already knows lots of the older girls that go there (from orchestras and groups) and lots of her friends are going too, so she's very happy with the decision.

Our son, now 16, went the prep to grammar route and it has really worked for him. He too was offered a music scholarship at the same school in Y6. True, there is not as much music at the grammar school for him, although it's not bad, but we have found things for him to do outside school, including Saturday music Academy, which also has the advantage of getting to know and getting known by local players and tutors outside school, which in turn leads to County group places etc etc. He might well have missed out on all this if he had kept all his music within school, which is what probably would have happened. My daughter already goes to the academy and various orchestras and ensembles, so even if there is not much at school for her, we figure she will have more than enough music to keep her happy. She can continue violin lessons with the same teacher which is all she was really concerned about.

Good luck with the decisions, I don't envy you, but sure you will make the right one!

I'd never thought that by doing your music more outside school than in that it would give access to a broader group of musicians. You've made me feel a lot better! Home ed boy sings in a national choir and goes to music centre, and may be joining another local choir so he's meeting a lot of different people. His cello teacher also teaches in some private schools and he gets invited (I suspect, because he's not bad for his age, and a good sight reader, so quite useful!) to some things there.

Glad I've helped you feel better! We worried about it like mad to start with, second time round we know what we're doing so are a lot more chilled about it all. It sounds like your son is benefitting all round from the things he is doing already. It took us a while to discover what was available locally, having done all music at school, which was very good, it wasn't something that we had ever needed or thought to consider. Luckily the director of music at his grammar school was very in with the county groups, and steered us in the right direction. I really don't think this would have happened at the other school, and he would have missed out on so much. Having said that, the music at the other school would have been excellent too (at a cost!) but this is just what's worked for him, and hopefully for daughter too.

I have found that because the children are at school in a different town we don't find out about local music groups and because that town is in a different county we don't find out about County activities. I have stumbled upon these by accident. If they were at the local school I think these groups would be actively recruiting them. I have had to fight to some extent to get them the opportunities they are entitiled to, for example most of the town music service activities are between 4 and 5pm, which is too early as they are not back from school, so we have had to use the county orchestras, and there is some friction between the two music services as they each feel the other is trying to steal their players.

That sounds like a difficult situation, it's a shame when it's all made so complicated. We don't have the cross county / town complication, and son is at local grammar which has strong connections with local groups, as does the one that daughter will start at in September, so I so looking forward to a bit less taxiing around. I have really had to fight for my daughter to access these groups, the groups were very keen to have her, but her prep school day finishes later than state schools and the county groups start before or as her day is finishing. Admittedly she is young to be doing some of them, but she really wanted to and it was all worthwhile (including the frequent rapid dashes from school to group when she was late out!). Luckily as her music enthusiasm has been recognised by the school, she now has special permission to leave early several days (with a bit of creative begging from me!) although it took several years of fights and unnecessary stress. We only have the one county orchestra to contend with, although there are several "town" orchestras. There doesn't seem to be too much friction between the two that we know of, a number of players attend both, and luckily rehearsal nights and concerts don't usually clash. Perhaps we are a particularly friendly area!

I have finally found an orchestra run by the town music service that is ideal for my son, it is three hours once a month and starts at 4.30 so he is only slightly late and just the right level for him. The point I was trying to stress was that if the school falls under a different education authority then you need to do the research, but even at the grammar school the girls attend they have nothing to do with the music service, employ their teachers directly and when I asked if there was any chance of hiring a bassoon through the music service they looked horrified and said that they didn't work with them. Having said that the school has been excellent music wise and my concerns about it being all academic have been unfounded. We haven't found the homework too much of a burden, they all just get on with it and are quite good at organising themselves.

We have a similar problem, in that the boys go to music centre in a different county from whre we live. This is for historical reasons, because our local music centre didn't provide a suitable group for Bobifier, and the others have followed their older brother. I sometimes feel a bit left out, because we don't know the staff as well as the local children and parents, but they've been so welcoming that we've stayed. There's still the option of going to county groups in our own county, which only run as courses in the summer holidyas, but we've never used them as the other county has a year round orchestra which I think is more fun and satisfying.

Our county music service is very patchy. The one where they go to music centre seems very much more organised, rigorous and proactive. Fingers crossed that the funding is maintained at the end of the financial year!

Thanks everyone for sharing your own experiences.

They have kind of solidified my idea of what is right for DS. Whilst we want him to have good musical opportunities, he is also academic and has lots of other interests (drama, chess, tennis, footy, swimming). The thought that should he get a scholarship and then be totally committed to attending music activities I think would be a bit claustrophobic for him. Plus I'm not sure that I like the idea of him having pressure to continue throughout secondary education. I did suggest to DH that the ?105K ish, that it would cost us to put DS through an independent school, could actually be used to move to an area with good state grammar schools! That way DS1 and DS2 would benefit as well as us having the monetary investment in our home! Seems ridiculous doesn't it?!!

Unfortunately, our LEA doesn't have any Grammar schools and no schools suitable for academic Boys (but a great girls school !!!). So our nearest and probably only option is Tiffin boys. Everything about this school seems to suit DS perfectly, strong academically, great sports, dance, drama, choir and music. But it is very hard to get into (140 places 1500ish sit the test) so we're trying to be philosophical about whether he will get in (although me being me - I dread him coming out of every tutorial in case he's had a bad one! I daren't even think what I'll be like next year after the entry exam). He is with the so called 'Top Tutor' but his slow and methodical attitude means that he hardly ever finishes the paper in the time. (Any ideas on how to get boys to speed up with their work also gratefully received!). If he doesn't get in then he'll end up at one of our local schools, we are on the boundary of those who were offered a place at the 'good school' last year, so that's a worry too whether he'd end up in the one with low results. Anyone know what this 'Parental Choice' in schools is - it seems to be just a gimmick to me - distance is the only deciding factor in our borough!

Anyway, the other opportunities mentioned, ie town and county orchestras, I'd never heard of, so we could look into those. Currently our Music Trust Orchestra and ensembles clash with other activities so he doesn't go, but he'll soon need to get involved. He's certainly enjoyed the music workshops that he's attended.

Sorry if I'm waffling! Thanks everyone

A lot of passing the entrance exams boils down to exam technique. My eldest was quite capable of getting full marks in the practice papers she sat, but they had to do each chunk of 12 questions in 6 minutes. They were multiple choice, so we worked with a stop watch, when she started she was doing 10 questions easily in the 6 minutes and we talked about how if she was pushed for time on the last couple of questions it was better to rule out the obviously wrong options and guess between the last couple. She got quicker with practice.

A friend's child was very slow and when he sat his entrance for an independent school he only finished about half the maths paper, but all those he did were right. He was able to resit and got in. His main problem was he wouldn't leave a question out if he was struggling and refused to guess as he felt that was cheating. They need to be told how to pick their best questions first and then make educated guesses if stuck.

Violamum - if you haven't already - join the Eleven Plus forum online - its not just for grammars - there's a great Indie school forum there - lots of folk trying for Tiffin - and also its a good place to browse around the boroughs if you're serious about an eleven plus motivated house move (a lot of people do it.)

Unless it's changed since mine went to secondary school choice isn't actually mentioned. You can express a preference which is not the same thing.

That's it exactly, it's a preference not a choice.

We also turned down a music scholarship at an indie in favour of the local state school and then discovered that the music at the state school was actually much better - because it was a much bigger school there were naturally more pupils who played instruments giving them lots of people to make orchestras and ensembles up from as well as joining up with other nearby state schools for some music activities.

In answer to your original question, Claudia got her scholarship offer on the strength of one instrument; she did have a second but refused to play it for audition so it wasn't mentioned.

To put forward a different opinion- I am very pleased with our choice to send the children to independent schools. Both DH and myself were state school educated and I taught for 10 years in a comprehensive. It is not something we ever considered.
What I have found with the independent sector is that the schools are concerned more with the whole child, and are not just seeking higher places in league tables (in fact they opt out of league tables as they offer igcses which they consider are better preparation for A levels and igcse's don't count in league tables!) Where my daughter took a GCSE early, she used the time in yr 11 to do extra relevant PHSE and to have a study period to help take the pressure off her other GCSE's. In the state schools, they just have to take a higher exam here. The independent schools my children are in all celebrate the strengths of the indidvidual children- but one of the schools isn't great at music- where my son goes, who doesn't play an instrument!

Where I live, the music is very poor in the local 'outstanding' comprehensive. They don't even offer GCSE music. Very academic children get pushed extremely hard and I wanted my very academic youngest not to have to take GCSE's in year 8 and 9 as I want her to be able to continue to pursue her outside interests which I believe are as valuable to her development as her academic studies. She can do AS levels when she is the right age- not at 15 and have to give up the violin to do that! Where I live, it is not main stream to play an instrument in state schools. There are some incredibly talented musicians in the local comp and they do not join in the one ensemble that exists , as to be honest- it's not good.
Things are looking up there- there is a new assistant head who is a music teacher and the old head of music has retired. One of my pupil's parents has successfully managed to persuade the assistant head that the school could offer an out of school GCSE class for next year (pupil is Gr 7 standard), but last year another pupil of mine (also gr 7) failed to manage to persuade the school on the same issue! All the good musicians in the comp go to the local music club on a Saturday where the ensembles' standards are much higher than the standard of the school's ensembles.
There isn't much parental choice here- I live in a rural area and the schools are fairly far apart! I realise that is some parts of the country, the state school provision is great for music- that's just not the case where I live... and the independent schools generally provide well for music here. I appreciate the fact that my daughter's new independent school now celebrates the fact she is in County Orchestra and I don't have to fill out a holiday form for her when she has to attend the orchestra during term time as I had to when she was in the state primary!

My experience has been that no school is perfect. My son is on an academic scholarship at an independent and he is now doing all his music outside school. They have quite a strong music department, but it wasn't working for him for various reasons. He seems much more motivated academically than the girls (much to my surprise as sport has always been his priority) but I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the school or whether he has suddenly seen the light! Neither of the schools (state grammar and independent) does GCSEs early and the girls are getting plenty of music at the grammar. The girls are doing very well academically, but my eldest doesn't seem to be interested in anything that isn't music related.

I think you just have to decide what works best for your family as a whole. The girls were also offered academic scholarships to son's school, but as there was an excellent girls' school in the area we decided that the financial burden would deprive them of more experiences than the benefits. There is no equivalent boys' school, so half fees for one child was worth the sacrifice.

Thanks for that tip Andante. I have been doing the opposite, so maybe I need to change my approach. DS doesn't like rushing, so I've been taking the time pressure off him and letting take longer. Maybe tightening up on that will actually help him long term! DOH!

DH thinks that it's just a case of practice. DS doesn't have any problems with the questions at all so he sounds like the boy you mentioned - DS gets everything right but just not quick enough. At the moment he can do 100 'Walsh questions' in about 80 minutes, but needs to do 80 in 50 minutes on the exam. My mum thinks that he'll mature over the next 10 months so that will help too.

BTW When I said 'Parental Choice' I was referring to the Government's phrase which I remember being heavily sold at the time! Obviously we have no choice, we put our schools in order of preference and then, in our case, the distance from school is the only deciding factor.

It's all such a worry though when the other options don't inspire much confidence. We could make the choice to go independent, but the financial commitment in today's climate is a bit of a risk. (DH is currently working out how to 'lose' another 20% of his department's staff after already 'letting go' 20% last Autumn!). Plus with 2 boys, we could hardly do that for one and not the other, so we're talking over ?210K. My friend has a DD who is at an Independent that costs ?7.5 per year, if that was an option for us we'd jump at it!!! Maybe I could win the lottery

I did have a look at an 11+ forum, but didn't get much info. Maybe I didn't look properly, so I will have another look! I'll also have a look at the 11+ 'house moves'.

Thanks everyone.

If DS dislikes rushing try just getting him to do 8 questions in 5 minutes, or 16 in 10 minutes to start with , rather than 80 in 50 minutes. 50 minutes is a long time to keep up the speed. My younger daughter was sent home from school with practice questions and she was told to do half an hour and so only a few questions were being done and she said she couldn't do them quicker, but when I said that she was to do half a paper and if it took longer than half an hour then so be it, suddenly half a paper was taking 20 minutes. Then a whole paper was being done in just over half an hour. She was taking her time because she didn't feel under time pressure.

We did the practice papers during the summer holiday and it was one first thing every morning and then it was out of the way and the rest of the day was free. They asked to do them so there was no coercion needed. Some days they would ask to do a couple of papers in the morning so they could have the next day off. (They knew I would force them to do them, so they did them willingly without the fight!) I'm not familiar with Walsh papers ours were Bond or NFER, but the same types of questions came up again and again, so familiarity is very important and will help with the speed. Show him ways to tackle questions then he will have the tools he needs ready without having to think too much.

I had omitted to request time off for the county orchestra's residential week, which is in term time but in another county so doesn't figure in our school's timetable. Luckily the person who runs the orchestra had written to the school to request the time off and I got a lovely letter from school saying how pleased they were that our son was playing in such a prestigious orchestra. I heaved a sigh of relief that my uselessness hadn't been noted and I was also really pleased that far from quibbling the school recognised that this was a really good thing to do. And this from a school with very little music. So yes, schools do differ enormously in both sectors.

In our county there are two or three grammar schools and the rest are comprehensive (no grammars in our area, thank goodness - evil system). I had a look, out of interest, at the sample questions they give. They were absolutely terrible. I couldn't do them (these are verbal and non-verbal reasoning tests, which is all they use here) and Home Ed boy (brainy as the rest, I think) hadn't got a clue. Now I know, whatever they say, that you can learn how to do these tests, but I went to Oxford so I think I'm probably the sort of person they might be looking for, yet they made no sense to me. And they were SO boring. I'd have given up after a couple and lost the will to live. Some of the questions were ambiguous and some could have more than one answer, although the person writing the test hadn't realised. They are multiple choice so you can't even justify your answer. I was appalled and my husband, a clear thinking mathematician, said the company making them should be sued. And it is on these tests that childrens' futures are being decided.

I'm not one to tell any parent that they don't know what is best for their child, but I do wonder if everyone here is really considering all the options.

I went to a comprehensive school in my local area where the music was dire, behaviour and teaching quality varied, and the school didn't have a 6th form. I got bullied, I messed about and wasted a lot of time. I encountered and survived being offered drugs, being taken on shop lifting expeditions, and generally learnt a lot more about life than I might have elsewhere! I also met a far greater variety of people than I would have in any of the local private schools. It was a pretty typical educational experience, but one which left me a lot more worldly, driven and strong as a person. I guess the main thing is, that it didn't do me any harm at all! I still had a lot of fun, made many friends, and got exceptional GCSE results. Results that are even more impressive to people because I went to a normal comprehensive school.

After leaving I went to an FE college. I would recommend this option to anyone to consider. It was far better preparation (in terms of the independent atmosphere, and lack of rules) for university than going into a small school 6th form. (There were 3000 A Level students at said college!)

My parents were told they should consider sending me to a private school (no grammars in our area) by my primary school because the secondary schools just wouldn't stretch/offer the opportunities blahblahblah. They took no notice: Frankly, I expect they didn't have the money and couldn't see the point. There were only 2 schools to choose from - I went to the one which was within walking distance.

I will face a quandry if I ever have children of my own, as to which direction to take. I certainly won't blanket rule out comprehensives though. An able child with supportive parents will not have their sucess or happiness, or future prospects significantly affected by the school they attend, although it does seem this is a rather unique opinion of mine. Honestly, I think it is the least able, with unsupportive parents, who really need access to the more all rounded and individual approach, or more 'guided/coached' activities, that some private schools seem to offer.

For those trying to make such difficult decisions, I guess all I can say is that there aren't any wrong ones. I imagine my parents had serious doubts when I was very unhappy at school - I imagine they were all swept away when I danced out in the final summer with results we were all proud of, and a group of equally elated friends.

I agree!

There is more to consider than just the school and it's reputation. I wasn't keen for my eldest in particular to go to the local dire comprehensive because she was academically bright and painfully shy. I was worried that in a large class she would be ignored by hardpressed, overworked teachers as she would be coping with the work and unable to make friends because of her shy personality. She has quite a lot of friends, but it has always been them that have befriended her rather than the other way round. She's a nice quiet child so doesn't tend to annoy the others and they do make friends with her. However there is another consideration in an area where there are a few grammar schools. If they syphon off the bright motivated children, then the other schools are not really comprehensives and the bright child will stick out even more. A partial grammar school system is the worst of all worlds. One of our local comprehensives (which has a very good reputation) puts struggling children in small classes for subjects like maths, eg 12 children, whereas the bright ones can be in a class of 30 or more. I think this is an excellent way of helping those that are struggling with important subjects, but does mean that the bright children may lack attention if they suddenly come unstuck on a topic.

I take exception to grammar schools being labelled as an evil system though. By separating the academic motivated children from those that would benefit from a more practical education surely it is easier to cater to each child's needs. It would be better to select on a method other than one day of strange tests as that is not necessarily fair, and there will always be children on the margins of the cut off between grammar and non grammar schools that will feel cheated that they didn't get the opportunities of their peers at the grammar school, or conversely out of their depth in an academic environment. They do however provide an education that is closer to that available in the independent schools and thus give opportunities to the less well off. There will be those like Tamsin who will survive despite a dreadful school and stronger for the experience, but there will be those whose lives are blighted by such experiences.

The school wasn't that dreadful, honest! I just got the opportunity to interact with a very wide cross section of children, including children from traveller communities to those whose mothers were only 14 years older than them, to those whose families were clearly making a living from (semi)organised crime; amongst all the children from more typical backgrounds.

Believe me, my son has still had all those opportunities at the grammar school!

I have to disagree about grammar schools. The system is terrible. Not only does it select according to performance on just a particula couple of days but it takes no account of late maturing or brightness which isn't shown up by the particular test chosen. The children who just miss grammar school are very likely, for a variety of reasons, to be cleverer than the bottom ones at the grammar school. Years are different sizes. A child might get in one year who wouldn't have had a hope in another year yet is no stupider or cleverer for having been in a smaller year group. Children are branded failures at eleven. They are separated from their friends. They may have to travel to school when there is one much nearer.

I can't understand the resoning by selelcting the cleverer children. It would make a lot more sense to choose, say, the bottom thirty percent by a combination of behaviour and academic ability. They are the ones who need the 'special' education. The rest will be fine.

If you reread what I said I agreed with all those points, but I still think it is a better system than just throwing everyone in a one size fits all school. I don't think it is fair on the late developers and underachievers to be compared to the ones who would benefit from grammar schools. They need a schooling style suited to them, rather than to be treated the same way as quick learners.

maybe we'll have to agree to disagree.

You get kids from all sorts of backgrounds at independents too. A lot of them have charitable places, and the children come from a huge variety of backgrounds.

Minor point - you cannot have grammar and comprehensive in the same area. By definition, the latter are not comprehensive.

Some areas with comprehensives border other areas with grammar schools. The grammar schools don't always have a catchment area so can recruit from far and wide. One of our local grammars is a boarding school as well as a day school, so they truly have no catchment area. The area my daughters are at school in has a girls' grammar, but not a boys one. Thus the comprehensive schools have some of their bright pupils syphoned off into the grammar system.

As I said before a partial grammar system is the worst system .

This is not our experience.

Because the grammar schools have very strict catchment areas, many children who have either passed the 11+ and live just outside the catchment area or those who definitely live outside so don't even bother with the 11+, go to the Comprehensives Schools where they are streamed. The top stream is colloquially called the Grammar Stream and includes all those children who would have got into grammar had they lived in the catchment area plus those with a near miss in the 11+. Those children do extremely well because they are taught with children who are equally motivated.

The grammar schools have a other intake at 13+ specifically to deal with the late developers or those who narrowly missed out at 11+.




Actually, you can, where grammar school catchment areas are very small and/or you live near a county boundary albeit possibly semi comprehensive.

I was just going to say that, having been to an independent school myself. Pupils ranged from the rich with bodyguards for fear of kidnap to those who had been excluded from every other school in the area for bad behaviour to orphans and refugees.

I don't think I could have met such a huge cross section of people anywhere else!

.. and where I live in the south west, the independents have a much wider cultural mix than the state schools, with the overseas pupils etc. My eldest has some stupidly rich kids in her friends and a pupil whose parents are missionaries in Mozambique- where she has always lived and where to wear jeans in considered slutty. Quite an eye opener for western teenagers! She has a room mate from Hong Kong, a friend stay at home from Korea etc, whereas in my daughter's state primary, there was no-one from an ethnic minority in her year!

I guess it depends on where you live and the policy of LEAs within that area.

We don't have grammar schools but two neighbouring authorities do. Some primaries in our area will help the most able if they are seeking a place at the grammar schools but mostly they do not. There is nothing to stop parents from getting private tuition to aid the 11+ entry if this is what they want for their children.

When our girls were 11 and heading for high school there would have been little point as the transportation to the area where the grammar schools are would have been very difficult. The tram system makes it considerably easier now. There is an agreement in place so our LEA will fund the cross boarder pupils.

The grammar school system which I grew up with (which probably came close to Banjogirl's description) is nothing like the up-to-date, modern system we have now, where pupils whose strengths are academic (assessed not only on two exams but classwork and reference) can have the opportunity to follow a slightly more academic pathway than those who may be more technically or otherwise inclined and motivated. There is also a lot of pooling of resources and opportunity to transfer not only at the beginning of Key stage 3 but also KS4 and KS5.

We are a very rural area and consistently parental votes (in all types of schools) come out strongly in favour of keeping the present sysytem. No system, by it's very definition can ever be perfect but I believe that what we have here works as well as possible for the vast majority of children and families.

The music service is wonderful too!

Speaking personally we have always wanted our DS to go to a good state school, we are both Comprehensive school kids and went onto Uni and beyond. However, our local school has always been a 'bad' school, I did my teacher training there 20 years ago and that was what put me off teaching! As a result I vowed that none of my kids would ever go there. It has since had unsatisfactory Ofsted reports and has now been changed into an Academy and a ?22million pound complete rebuild program is about to start. It is also a Sports College! Having said all that we did go and look around - the staff were very friendly, and the new teaching systems are very appealing (streaming is done too) BUT it is a risk. They do have pupils who have gone onto Oxbridge, so it can be done.

Our other local comp gets much better GSCE results, but the 'vibe' wasn't nearly so good and they made a huge deal about how many special needs kids they had and the facilities for them, but seemed to have very little in place for high achievers. They also made a big thing of how they do not stream any pupils so are a 'true comprehensive'. The staff seemed much less friendly and bordered on arrogant - maybe they felt like they didn't need to sell their school unlike the first one!

Then we went to Tiffin!!! Buildings are old and a bit haphazard, but the staff and pupils were very welcoming. The pupil's enthusiasm for learning was palpable, the range of subjects and activities offered was unbelievable. DS was in seventh heaven at the choice - he was like a little kid in a sweet shop!! He came away with a long list of subjects that he wanted to do, music, sport and other groups he wanted to join. The entrance exams are Verbal and Non Verbal Reasoning and he has always just 'got' what it is all about, indeed myself and DH like doing the tests ourselves!!! DS' exam timing is just the issue. Should these exams be used as a way of deciding who should go - that's a big question, but somehow grammar schools do have to make a decision and like any exam it has it's drawbacks. The Tiffin exam recognizes to some extent the difference in maturity of students and so the raw exam scores are 'adjusted' by some top secret method to take account of month of birth.

In an ideal world we would want our son to go to a good local state school, where he can get a good education with lots of activities for him to join in and his friends at hand. But it is hardly an ideal world and with his teacher suggesting that he should try for a scholarship, we have been thrown in at the deep end! Every day we wonder whether we are doing the right thing in tutoring him for Tiffin, but we can't take that opportunity away from him. He wants to try and if we don't do it we'd always wonder if we'd done the right thing. We keep telling ourselves that our DS will do well wherever he goes. He is intelligent and independent and, like someone said, he has supportive and involved parents.

Nobody said parenting was easy did they?!!!

My son went on a football course at his school when he was five in the summer holiday. He fell in love with the sports facilities and set his heart on going there for senior school. He's nearly 15 now and still loves school and it seems to be having a positive effect on his studies, so if they like the school it makes life easier.

Andante - you're so right. It sounds like your son has found the school that suits him and if it encourages a love of learning then all the better!!! It must be so awful for all concerned to send a child to a school that they hate or feel unhappy in.

DH and I were just saying how all these differences in the local school system just show what a mess it is in. Like so many other things these days, it can be a real postcode lottery. Our own LEA has no Grammar schools, we have a 'linked' Primary-Secondary school system, but even if you are at a linked Primary it doesn't guarantee a place at the secondary school! Plus we live too far from some of our own LEA schools to get a place. Of our neighbouring LEAs one has many church schools (we're not church goers) and its other 'good' schools are oversubscribed so the 'offer distance' is small and we are too far away! Our other neighbouring LEA has a mixture but the Grammar schools are Tiffin Boys and Girls, these take pupils from any distance (they recommend a travelling time upto 60 minutes), so demand is very high. Despite having to put 6 preferences on our school choice form, we may end up with only one being available at all!

At the primary school my children were at the children lived in at least four different LEAs as it was on county boundaries. Each LEA had different rules for putting schools on the forms, some it was four schools, some five and some six. A local school that is an academy accepts pupils from two different postcodes ie two LEAs and in the one you put them on the LEA form and in the other you don't. So living where we do we had an offer from the academy and another school , but others only got either the academy or another school. The system really needs sorting out so that it is the same for everyone. I was told information that was incorrect by the education department at our LEA when filling in the form for our youngest. It was only because I had two elder children that I knew the woman was wrong when she told me that you didn't need to put the grammar schools on the LEA form. If I hadn't known better we could have missed out. Even her colleague was horrrified when I said what I had been told and queried whether it was right.

We took the music scholarship in the private sector route, and certainly haven't been disappointed. Although the school is small, my daughter gets lots of attention, but is not overly put upon as a music scholar. I think it can be different in bigger more musical schools that have this ensemble and that ensemble, so would definitely be worth checking out what the musical commitments would be.

But it's important to remember that a child's success in whatever type of school they go to has a lot to do with family background, upbringing, expectations etc... My three nephews all went to local comprehensive (quite good but not outstanding). One is at Oxford, one is off to Cambridge, and three nicer boys you couldn't wish to meet. Their school wasn't particularly musical, but a diet of local orchestras and holiday courses helped one of them become an excellent cellist too...... So if Tiffin doesn't work out, your son stands every chance of succeeding if he's in the frame of mind for it...

Good luck - and remember, if it doesn't work out, you can always make other educational choices further down the line (spoken with great experience as son changed schools at christmas - wish I'd done it ages ago!).

In answer to the OP's original question: I would ask the schools directly and have the director of music listen to your son in order to judge if he is a potential music scholar/needs a second instrument. He will have to play the piano as a condition of his music scholarship and is usually expected to be a member of the choirs as well as ensembles. Back to a second instrument: it really depends on the calibre of applicants so having more than one to offer will always put him in a stronger position.

When picking a senior school make sure you know what you want from it. With hindsight I would never have chosen a school that had Saturday classes for DS2 as it inhibits him from joining other music groups. However if you want a school that does everything and has amazing extra-curricular activities then schools with a longer day tend to include all these things so you don't have to drive around being the taxi. DS prep school plays team games 6 days a week for two hours each day and has two periods of PE a week; this does not include the optional sporting clubs. But, if you want to do it yourself then an independent with no Saturday school and early finishes or the state school route is the way to go. But pick a state school wisely when it comes to musical provision. I know of schools that run no ensembles, do not do GSCE music or the calibre of musicians is fairly weak to average. I suspect the many good state schools mentioned on other posts have either been grammar or leafy middle class comps.

If your child is musical and wants participate in events through school then this is something you will definately have to find out about in advance before going down the state comprehensive route.

If you do end up in this position there are plenty of things that can be done to keep the musical passion alive. MusicalNitWit describes Emsoboes school very accurately. Worst still the Head and Music Teacher has a very negative attitude towards her music making. At least she has a good sixth form to go to with a strong musical leaning.

I don't have children myself, yet. I'm only 22 though so plenty of time for that.

As Tamsin has done I would like to put forward my "two-penneth" worth ...

I wish that my parents had the foresight, money or determination to have got me into an Independent school from a music scholarship. I was an able clarinettist (Grade 4-5) at the time of leaving primary school and was playing in the intermediate county orchestra.

To cut a long story short I ended up at the local comprehensive with practically NOTHING in common with the other students. All my friends from orchestra went to Independents of varying fee paying levels and their tales of school seemed much more different and exciting to my, ever-lasting, tales of woe, regarding school.

I couldn't wait to go on holidays (both school set ones) and family trips all over the world (which, rightly or wrongly happened in school terms). County Orchestra was also held in school terms and I'd count the weeks away until another break at some point. In short I was probably only at school for about 25/6 weeks of the year and hated every minute of it.

In five years I made no good friends there and left, aged, 16 with excellent GCSE results. Would this have happened had I gone to an independent? I some how doubt it. Whether it was for better or worse, I cannot say of course. I have a couple of businesses, my own house and 3 cars at 22.

Thanks for those extra tips.

I was interested to read your account of comp school Pixie*Porsche. A friend of mine didn't even hear about Tiffin Girls until about a term before her eldest DD would have to sit the entrance exam. With only a short time for home tutoring, her DD didn't get a place and so went to the better of our local comps. When I said that she'd done well there, my friend's reply was that academically she had done well, but that there were many times when she'd felt like a total 'fish out of water'. Her younger DD is now at Tiffin, has made lots of friends and is loving every minute!

DS is very independent and always wants to do his own thing. Whenever some event is happening at school never once has he made any comment on whether his friends are going, he just decides whether he wants to go or not. Now that there are 'groups' forming at school and lots of 'sheep behaviour', he still just does his own thing. At a recent school disco he said that all his class were just stood around but he wanted to dance, so he did and had a fantastic time. When a couple of his classmates said hello to him, he said "I think that they were laughing at me but I just thought I'm doing what I want and having a great time so I don't care". It would be wonderful for him to be somewhere that helps him to continue to be an individual and enjoy his slightly different pursuits. He seems to be accepted by most of his peers, but as we all know, things can change as they go into teenage years! We're also finding jealousies creeping in with other mums as his Viola playing goes from strength to strength, whilst their own children are still struggling to do grade 1. It'd be nice to be somewhere where that kind of thing isn't an issue. Where every child is recognized for their own strengths. Maybe I'm living in dream land to think that these kinds of places exist!

I went to an ordinary comprehensive but because of the local authority's enlightened approach to instrumental teaching, combined with its being in a fairly afflunet area, there were many very good musicians. As a result I alwasy underestimated my own abilities. I didn't know that my school was relatively unusual in having so many musicians, most of whom were better than me. As a result I didn't do that much musically. Thre was usually someone better than I was and I was convinced that I wasn't very good. It was only when I left school that I relaised I was actually quite a handy pianist, and then later, when I started getting asked to accompany other people's children's exams, that I might be reasonably good.

Violamum, I think whether your children are happy to be themselves is very much down to them. You've clearly brought him up to be comfortable in hiw own skin, which is great. My boys (so far, touch wood)have been happy to do their own thing too.

Violamum,

I have just looked at your DS viola progress!!! Stop messing about and go and get him a scholarship and start him on piano!

Thanks for that kick up the ar*e MusicalNItWit! We'll have to see what mood he comes out of the G4 exam in 3 weeks time!!! My friend (who used to be a music teacher) is fascinated by him ticking off the grades! Is it really THAT unusual? He just loves the challenge and puts in the practice! Keeps him out of mischief anyway!