Some of you may be aware that DS has a very busy schedule and in the run up to the RCM audition we need to grab any spare moment of practice we can, which during the week is not very much. This week we'll be lucky to fit in two practice sessions, not including the weekend.

Recently I've had a couple of requests from a few parents asking if we can have their DC for an hour after school from 6:30 - 7:30 or to drop kids off at their house because they have other plans. The request does not bother me and it is no inconvenience but if I say yes then the time taken basically rules out any weekly practice. During the holidays I would happily help out with any request.

I'm wondering how I can say no without looking unhelpful, or obsessed that DS needs to do his two week day practices - if I were obsessed he'd be doing five! Should I just make up a random excuse unrelated to music? It's more difficult when I get asked at the last minute. I need to maintain good relations with these parents for my sake and DS but I'm not sure they would understand where I was coming from.

If we have something important coming up that we need the practice time for then I agree to have the other children but tell them and the parents that the practice needs to be done. I then put the other child in front of the TV and we do the practice. Quite often they are absolutely fascinated and come and listen!

Could you not say that DC could come between 6.30 and 7.30 but that it is very important that DS does his practice and so DC should bring something (quiet) with which to occupy themselves - a book, homework, whatever youngsters do these days?

DS will also have to be advised/told that he must do his practice during this time and that DC is not there for a "play date" for want of a better word.

Having kids round and doing practice simultaneousluy is not going to work because I would feel guilty and DS would huff so much that his practice would be a disaster. I am resolved to not have anyone over but just don't know how to phrase it.

Ok.. in which case you just need to say sorry but this week is not possible, you have too much on

DS? DC?

DS= darling son
DC= darling child (I presume)

Thank you

But why???

so as to distinguish it from all those hated offspring people tend to have... (the terminology irritates me for precisely this reason!).
Mind you, it could as easily stand for Delinquent, Dishonest, or whatever...
On the problem posed: you don't have to give any reason at all. Simply saying, I'm sorry, but we're booked up for that week, is enough. Once you start trying longwinded explanations it can begin to look like you're hunting for excuses to dodge the commitment.

The problem is that I have some canny friends who say, "are you going to this?", "what are your plans this evening?" so I've said yes or nothing and they can then ask for me to pick up/look after DC's.

DC used to annoy me but it's easier than typing son, child etc!

That is a bit sneaky of them if I may say so.

Maybe you just need to be a bit firmer. I know it's hard.
I hate people asking me "what are you doing on Tuesday?" for example as a prelude to a favour. I may sound like a cow but these days I say, "Why? What did you have in mind?" and then when they come out with what they had in mind then I will tell them what I am or am not doing.

I can see you are a kind person and you don't want to leave other people in the lurch by not picking up/looking after their DC but in the end you and DS need time together for whatever it is you want to do - whether that is music practice or doing absolutely nothing.
A firm no, sorry, I'm busy that evening will do.
It is good to say no once in a while. If you say yes all the time then you become the parent that everyone can rely on whenever they need someone to look after their children, so you will be the first to be phoned/asked about it.

I suppose my advice is just be honest, and brief, and don't feel that you have to justify yourself to outsiders.

Actually my advice is toughen up - tell your DS ('darling', 'dear', 'dreadful' or 'down right impossible' ) that if he wants to learn an instrument then x amount of quality practice has to be done x number of times a week no matter what else is going on. I realise, however, that the run up to an important audition is not the time to start doing this so I'll stick to the 'honest and brief' suggestion.

Some people might think you're weird but ... join the club. You're not doing anything to be ashamed of - just prioritising your own family for once.

How come? You have to hold down the shift key and then press two letters - so three key presses. Same number of keys as typing the word son. Everybody understands the word son. On a music forum especially people would see a different meaning for the letters DC before they ever thought it referred to a son.

And you need to think what you will say to these folk (and how your son will cope) when he gets a place and is expected to practice more during the week.

Can we take this argument back to the cafe? There was a thread there on DC etc just last week.

it's quite possible for evening commitments to get in the way of afternoon ones - just say the day is going to be too crammed because of other family members, and leave it at that.
On typing abbreviations: keyboard skills are a useful thing to have...

I agree with the other posters who say - you don't need to apologise and that always saying yes kind of turns you into a doormat. Although you say the requests don't bother you and they're no inconvenience I suspect you are bothered and they are inconvenient hence your post.

I'm also slightly puzzled as to why having practices twice a week might appear obsessed? Is it that the other families are not musical? Would it be considered obsessive if they were at rugby or football practice? Without knowing your situation in full it's easy for me to say you don't have to offer excuses and even offering that it's not convenient because your son has an audition to rehearse for is more than they need, but maybe for the sake of harmony with these people you could explain it it terms they'll get - sport or something they are keen on and wouldn't want to miss out on.

I hope you manage to get this sorted, so you can all focus on the important thing - the music! Good luck!

The requests do not bother me at all. It only bothers me that I may have to rearrange my/DS timetable to accommodate the requests but that is my problem.

I don't think twice a week is obsessive but I could see how someone might be miffed if I said, "No, I can't drop your child off after school/have him at ours because you can't get to him in time because DS needs to do music practice." Even if I think the thing they want to do is insignificant I'm sure they will be that I would prioritise music practice over helping them out.

I will just have to find a way of saying that DS and I are not available during the week due to commitments.

Dear MNW, this may help in one way but not in another. When Daughter Number Two (is that OK for folks irritated by acronyms? I blame the culture that decrees we must be secretive online - our offspring will soon be reduced to a set of punctuation mark - I bag ">!" for mine; back to topic...) was preparing for JD auditions in year 10, she was doing two hours practice every day**. So what you are trying to fit in for a lad in year 5 seems entirely reasonable and in no way can be described as obsessive, pushy or anything other than responsible and sensible. Auditioning is a big commitment and needs to be taken seriously.

Yes I do think you are being taken advantage of - even if in the nicest way by people who are stretched at the moment and don't stop to think. But at present, your boy and his practice are your priority. So close your door to allcomers, give both of you time, and look after yourself too.

**And because I recognise your reaction to that may be a sinking stomach at best, remember Daughter Number Two (this gets wearisome, why don't we use acronyms? Oh, oh, I see, other people find reading acronyms wearisome; back to topic) was much older which made the hill she was climbing far steeper. More to the point, she has been used ever since by her lovely teacher as a model of focus and determination when subsequent pupils have claimed they couldn't practise much because they have GCSEs. I suspect her name may occasionally have been Mud in some quarters (Hmm, that's quick to type...)

Stay strong

I agree with a steeper hill to climb, hence the auditioning now. Much easier to imagine potential/ignore any errors on a younger child auditioning. DC must need to be at least G8 by GCSE for JD I would have thought and that just seems too overwhelming for me to even think about, let alone organise practice sessions and sit in on them!

At JRNCM a lot of first study players only do their grade 8 around age 16 - I think passing exams is not the main priority. But I would say that to reach that standard a player has to be self-motivated to practice. At age 10 you may have to be the driving force, but by the age of 12 or 13 they should be doing the practice because they want to.

Chris

You know it happens and you can just go with the flow.

To be honest I was always stressing over teaching when daughter was around Grade 3/4 and I think you are right to take steps to sort it out now.

On the original point. I've always been honest about daughters needing to do practice and I've had the looks and the wonders about whether child is pushed. I could have told them I only expected what was fair (which is what I think you are also trying to achieve).

If you pay for instruments, music, lessons etc then you are entitled to expect the child to show some commitment in return.

I know that some of the parents look at daughters now and wonder why they didn't have a little expectation of their own children.

Since Epiphanya (pseudonym not acronym!) has intimated that she is serious about her music, I now take a ruthless stance. If favours are asked, I explain that of course I will help IF no one else can help out, but could they please try to find someone else as it's extremely disruptive, and their child will have to endure an evening of practice and homework, not computers and chat.

Strangely have only been asked once to help out recently - this friday in fact, and that's just been reduced from the sleepover that was requested to a late pick up, as we have a music festival next morning!

Unfortunately, music is rather like sport. If you are going to reach your potential you have to start early and both dedication and sacrifice are required. Epiphanya has just thrown an epi (!) when I pointed out that perhaps she should practice for her concert, instead of browsing the Hollister website, but as I pointed out, would she rather I nagged her now, or comforted her after when she is moaning about how she should have practised more! Still, practise she did!

Feel for you..

If someone had a child who was into swimming - it might be very feasible that they couldn't do this or that because their child needed to go swimming (as in swimming practice, rather than a swimming lesson) - trouble with music is that the hard work is done at home..and so people think you're available.

Bit like when I used to work nights...and people used to think that meant I was available during the day to look after so-and-so (erm...where do I fit sleep in to this equation then?)

Don't feel guilty for saying you're not available...even if you're at home! Sometimes, I'm so busy at the moment that the odd night where I'm free for 2 hours I just want to do absolutely nothing because I'm so tired. If my DB (that be brother...) rings asking if I can babysit I have absolutely no guilt in saying "sorry, I'm busy" even if that "busy" means just sitting in front of the TV with a glass of wine. It's called "me time" and we're all entitled to it!

I am resolved to refuse. I just need to come up with perfectly worded excuses so I don't get the .

Ahem.....reasons, not excuses.

If anyone is offended by a refusal, they probably aren't much of a friend.

I'm just about getting this message through to my husband and grown up, not living at home children.
I might be home but I'm not necessarily available because practice is not an optional activity.
Having made a conscious effort to become more disciplined about practice myself has helped.

Very good points from notmusimum. B1 is only Grade 5ish now on violin and piano but the gap between her accomplishments and those of her equally musical but less encouraged/disciplined friends is suddenly looking really noticeable even to the least musical of their parents. In consequence I am not getting so many of the looks you are worrying about.



You're asking your son to do a lot of work and you need to keep showing him that what he does is important to you all. Good luck.

I agree - and this is a lesson I've only learnt in later life. If you apologise for not being able to do something the apology is taken to mean that you're somehow at fault. There are different ways of saying 'sorry', though. "I'm sorry, we have other commitments that mean it's just not possible, but I do hope you can get somebody else to help" is entirely different to "O dear, I'm really sorry, but I just don't think I should, because x really needs to practice and blah blah blah...." If you just state a fact without excusing yourself, others will see no need to excuse you (or otherwise) either; they just accept the stated fact and move on.

I have a friend who always takes the "What are your plans for Mon/Tue/whatever?" approach as a prelude (good word - whoever used it up above!) to a favour being asked, and it panics me! I used to just say "nothing special", and ended up using an afternoon to babysit or something when other things that were important to me got left undone. It would be easier for her to get somebody else to babysit than for me to get somebody else to do my practice!

So now I say, "I can't think that far ahead off the top of my head; what have you got in mind, and I'll ring you later."

I have another friend who is very assertive, but quietly and politely so. "That really wouldn't suit me for various reasons" gets her out of many things that others end up doing and resenting - or things that others also end up refusing to do, and getting resented for refusing! Somehow, though, her "It doesn't suit" is always just accepted at face value and she is more respected for that than others are for coming up with 'excuses'.

Follow your instincts about what suits you and your family, and don't let your family down because of worrying too much about what others think of you! If they think at all, it'll be fleetingly.

The more you say no the easier it gets! I used to be hopeless but I'm getting much better at picking and choosing what I'll say yes to and what I will decline, and I no longer feel the need to have an excuse or reason. I'm also completely clueless and if i don't have my diary with me I can't commit to anything, or even remember what I was asked, and i tell people that. If they're really keen they'll get back to me but often they've found someone else before that.

I hope that you are able to find a way to put your family's priorities first, with out feeling that you've let others down or "miffed" them. As Icklechick and Listener etc. say - you shouldn't feel guilty for saying no - your priorities are as important as other people's. Being available, occasionally, to re-arrange your timetable to help out ought to be enough to indicate your good-will, but not every time, not at the expense of DS's practice time.

I googled "assertiveness saying no" (but without the quotes) and there were some really useful pointers in the results. Maybe having a look at some of those could help you word how you say no. Not easy for most of us.

Good luck to you and your DS!

Read Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother and never feel guilty about sacrificing things for practice again.

Be careful using DC : that abbreviation on this forum is usually taken to be shorthand for forumite DaisyChain!

Actually, as someone who joins the above poster in not understanding these abbreviations, can I just point out the following sentence from the full Forum Rules....

Out of respect for other forums users, please refrain from using abbreviations, slang, jargon or "text talk" as many forums users find this difficult to understand.

I think the evidence is that some forum users do indeed find these abbreviations difficult to understand.

Thank you :-)
To put this in context, I thought DC was Detective Constable and DS was Detective Sergeant, and once that thought came to mind it was impossible to get it out of my head....

OK so I'm confused. DC is OK for DaisyChain but not for Dear Child? Or is it not OK for DaisyChain either, because someone new to the forum might not know DC stands for DaisyChain? Not everyone will know that DC is Detective Constable - remember especially that we have overseas members - so does that mean you can't use it in that context either? And what does the forumite use instead of DC for his/her child? The child's name and thus compromise anonymity? Perhaps a moderator can explain.

Perhaps an acronym list would help - once an acronym has been grabbed it can't be used for anything else (although it could be used by many people for the same thing)

Me, I suddenly feel unwelcome here in case I inadvertently treat on the toes of long-term forumites, some at least of whom are unhappy with the way the forum is going/has gone.

I wasn't suggesting DC was a sensible use of the abbreviation on the forum - after all, abbreviations here, as the rules say, are not allowed. I was saying that *any* abbreviation is open to confusion. DC is Direct Current, Death Certificate, Debit Card, and indeed 253 other meanings, courtesy of www.acronymfinder.com


How about "My son" or "My daughter"?

Why over-complicate things by making up words when words exist. This has a very Alice In Wonderland feel :-)

If you met a friend in the High Street, wouldn't you say "My son's at college now" rather than "DS is at college now"???

My issue with abbreviations is that they create the illusion of a clique, which is not what I want to see.

My issue with *using* abbreviations is that the forum rules ask us not to, and I don't see why these rules have to be overlooked to save a couple of key presses and make it harder for new forum members to feel part of what is otherwise a healthy and informative resource.

Friend in the High Street? Well oddly that happened yesterday evening and guess what? We didn't have to worry about internet anonymity so we used their given names - not 'my son' DS, 'my daughter' or DD.

I appreciate your point about cliques but in defence of members of the forum who use abbreviations/acronyms, and at risk of defying rules, they're not being lazy but personalizing their posts while preserving anonymity of their children. Whenever did you join a new group and instantly know what is going on? I would say that the very people who use the abbreviations being complained about are extremely welcoming to new members of the forum and not remotely cliquey.

I used to post about 'my daughter' or even 'younger daughter' but felt it sounded stilted compared to others' breezy abbreviations. So while I must defer to you because that's what the rules say, I shall be sorry to lose B1, DS, DC, etc., as instant identifiers

I can't see why it matters with names. If I posted "XX had a dreadful lesson today can someone offer advice on how to play Mozart" the name is irrelevant. It makes no less sense if I posted "DS had a dreadful lesson today can someone offer advice on how to play Mozart" and no more if I said "Fred had a dreadful lesson today can someone offer advice on how to play Mozart"

The ones that shouldn't be used are IMHO* and BTDTGTS* etc. which I have seen used and had to ask the meaning of because they replace bits of the sentence.

* (In my humble opinion, and been there done that, got the T-Shirt)

The first time I saw ROFL* it was clear that it was an amused expression and I thought it was someone trying to type the sound of deep throaty chuckling!

*Rolls on Floor Laughing although here I have seen a smiley doing the job instead.

In your context no, but in the context of *this* thread, DC was someone outside the family, and DS was someone inside the family. And that's a massive difference. One's a paying customer, one isn't, and the thread was precisely about the "pull" that this created.

It was precisely because one had to *understand* the abbreviation that I entered the fray.

I fully understand and support the use of XX for the purposes of anonymisation, and it is, of course, not an abbreviation and therefore allowed in the forum rules (!)

I agree. Certainly a lot more finger muscle energy has been expended in explanation than would have been necessary if people had just said "my child" in the first place. I've been around here a long time, I'm not in any sort of clique, and it took me ages to figure out what these abbreviations meant. In fact, it put me off reading further in many threads. I decided it wasn't worth the bother! I didn't want to ask and look like an idiot, and was grateful when somebody else did, but I STILL have to think when these things come up. Somebody with a musical query need not be a forum member, and need not even know that these forums exist for a forum response to come up to a musical question that they've googled. And instead of getting a straightforward answer to their question, or instead of finding a thread that they would like to contribute to, they will instead be sitting scratching their heads and wondering where they will be able to get a text language dictionary first. Certainly, it wouldn't encourage them to come back here! This sort of thing is taking over from music on the forums. Okay, we have the choice to largely disregard, but there is more and more it to disregard... Sorry if this offends anybody.... I'm just being honest.

I appear to have offended you : sorry

Well when people like me make an issue of it, and derail a thread, I can only put my hand up and say SORRY. However, I don't think that a shorthand for someone, be it XX or DC or DisgruntledMa, detracts from the comments we make . BUT if some of us talk more about the problems we have understanding what our children are trying to do and how we can support them, and less about music, I am so sorry - this is, though, the parents' subforum. I didn't think it's meant to be restricted to purely musical discussion, and it would be less helpful to some of us if it were. However, I am at heart a democrat, and if it should be less pleas for help ad chat about that, and more about music, then so be it.

Barry-Clari, not at all, apologies that I came over that way.

*wipes brow* phew!

We tend to only use DC to mean DaisyChain when actually replying to DaisyChain, or where it's obvious (eg on an event thread), that DC could only mean DaisyChain.

Me, I'm old fashioned and I prefer longhand for most things, but each to their own.

And haven't we gone off topic!!!

This is the main issue for me. Using the abbreviations is easier for the writer, but it is a little discourteous to the reader I think, because it necessitates more effort for him/her.

And I plead guilty to having used OH - and also "MM" as an abbreviation of my daughter's forum name (Musical Maniac)- though in the case of the latter only when I have used the full name earlier in the post or thread.

Surely things are not allowed to be 'O.K.' on the forum?
No-one knows what O.K. means. It is an abbreviation which became assimilated into the English language, over time, through usage. (like D.C, D.H., etc ... etc?)
Also I think it's a little odd for a music forum to be objecting to abbreviations. (mf, rit., con Ped.,marc, cresc., need I go on ?)

Nonetheless - agree that forum rules must be followed and will abbreviate no more.
T.T.F.N. - T.D.M. xxx

With my professional hat on, if something has been assimilated into the English language to the extent that it has an entry in the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) then the view of most English and a good many international publishers is that it is reasonable to use it and reasonable to expect that your readers will know what it means or be prepared to look it up if they do not.

OK, O.K., ok and o.k all appear in the (shorter, two-volume) OED, and there is a cross-reference for 'okay'.

However, the Forum may not follow this rule so I shall avoid 'OK' on the forum (unless I forget, which is sadly rather likely).

I am, by the way, relieved to see (in the Cafe) that you've not be cowed by the acronym-bashing; good luck with finding new handles for your offspring. I hope other acronym users will take heart from your initiative.

DS1 was in a bad mood today, DS2 had a terrible practice session, I had an argument with OH and I ROFL at something TDM said!

I am so sorry that both the Detective Sergeants had a hard time today.
I'm also sorry that the Occupational Health gave you a tough go of it.
The Transportation of Dangerous Materials is also a matter of concern.

ROFL would have worked well but you abbreviated it and therefore missed the T out, and it's become "Running on Four Legs"

Whilst you may want to persist with the use of abbreviations to mk a pt, you're shooting yourself in the foot when your abbreviations are abbreviated - then no-one can understand any of it

But you obviously did understand, DerekH, so wt is yr pt?
Love the idea of being "Transportation of Dangerous Materials" though - I handle a lot of very smelly nappies in my line of work at the moment.

Actually have to hold my hand up and admit that I was mentally composing a 'humorous' post about handheld games consoles and hydroroxide but DerekH beat me to it.

Hand held games consoles is exactly what I thought was under discussion the first time I saw DS. Not joking. Once I realised it was a person of some sort I thought it was some kind of work colleague or mentor - or somebody being assessed.