OH is watching the football and all I can think about is music...something very weird has happend since joining this site, there must be some sort of hypnotic subtext.

So, I know this is a "how long is a piece of string" question but, on average, how long would it take an adult with average musical aptitude and average intellect to get to grade 6 standard on piano and would you expect a child to reach this level before an adult if the same amount of practice time was put in? Basically, will I be playing Mozart Sonata in Eb in one years time or 25 years time i.e. are the odds stacked against or in favour of adult learners?!

I don't think there's any real difference.
The only thing I can think of right now that might restrict the adult is confidence but you can alsp get youngsters with confidence issues and adults without.

I jut wondered as us old duffers didn't have sponge-like brains that it may take longer. Then there is the old srthritic fingers too....

Well I took up oboe just over 3 years ago aged 55 and I'm approaching (hopefully) grade 6 this summer. Following this forum over that period leads me to believe I'm pretty average. One thing I would say is that since starting I have played almost every day. I'm sure the secret of success is consistency.

A don't know about not having a sponge-like-brain, but I do think adult brains function differently; one of my problems (according to my teacher) is a tendency to over-intellectualise

More seriously some things are easier as an adult: complex subdivisions of rhythm are easier to understand when you have fully mastered fractions;I'm sure you have a much longer concentration span than your son and will be less easily distracted when practising; you will be able to see long-term and realise that practising something "boring" now will bring benefits later...

On the other hand, as sbhoa said, confidence can be a problem and it is very demoralising to continually compare oneself with the professional performance on a favourite CD.

I think it is on the physical side of learning that children have an advantage - they seem to find it far easier to copy someone else's movements, possibly due to a lack of self-consciousness.

In my experience (having taught a fairly even balance of adults and children), with all things equal (such as enthusiasm, commitment to practice etc) adults tend to progress at least twice as fast as children.

Or perhaps I've just had a rather gifted bunch of adults! Who knows

From my observations I would say the odds are stacked in favour of the adult. Better problem solving skills, better math skills, better reading skills...they all help adults pick things up a little bit quicker. I've never had any difficulty with particularly unco-ordinated adults (no more than most children starting), so I wouldn't say that a lifetime of not using your fingers in a certain way makes you any worse off than a developing child starting to use their fingers that way.

The only disadvantage I have seen on numerous occasions is PATIENCE. Adults tend to have had much more exposure to music and music performances. They have a much more concrete idea of what is good, and they tend to want to be good NOW. I have had quite a few adult students who have been progressing incredibly well, far beyond my expectations, who then come to me one day all disheartened because they feel like they're progressing "so slowly" and asking if they're "a lost cause!" I ALWAYS encourage my students and tell them how well they're progressing, so I don't think it's any failure to communicate this on my part. I think adults tend to expect too much from themselves in too short a time. If this can be overcome, adults usually do incredibly well.

As for how long to get to grade 6? Well...it is like a piece of string! But, in my experience, 3 to 4 years tends to be the average for adult learners if they are consistent and thorough in their practice.

I haven't taken an adult from scratch to anywhere near that level - I have one who is easily at grade 1 level in about 4 months, but my experience with adults has been that most of them overestimate the amount of practice they're going to be able to fit in.

There is, or was, a sort of standard advert for adult piano learning, in which (and it always seemd to be this way around) the wife is sitting at the piano playing with a serene smile, and the husband is sitting nearby in an armchair (once upon a time also with a pipe) and holding a book or a newspaper - however, he has unexpectedly found himself listening to the lovely playing instead of the reading he thought he was about to do, and he is wearing an appreciative smile. How to please your husband, part 5. The two married women I have started over the past six months both relate that their husbands tell them when it's sounding good!

I think it can largely depend on how experienced your teacher (if any) is

Knowing how to practice well and develop good technique from the start must surely contribute to good progress

Obviously you need a lot of skills, and put in alot of time/practice yourself and a good teacher can motivate and encourage and make the whole thing enjoyable which makes it all worthwhile.

Are you about to take tonedeafmum's route and realise that you can't beat 'em so you might as well join 'em?

I'd agree with the general advice here. I've been playing the oboe for a only a bit less time than pushpull and I'd say I'm a bit behind but not much (we don't do ABRSM exams here and I've never heard pushpull play - but you can get a general sense of where folks are at) i.e. Grade 6 is possible in around three years if you're reasonably dedicated. And even if it takes 25, does it matter?

I must admit, though, to having been a bit less systematic myself with practising. This is partly because of my job as I have to travel occasionally and the workload goes up and down a lot so sometimes I'm just to tired and practice when you're over fatigued isn't always productive. I do try and do some kind of musical study, though, even if it's without the instrument. That is to say, quality of practice is as important as quantity and regularity. I'd say it's important (especially for an adult) not to over-stress oneself about it either.

Likewise, it's good to have goals but can be counter-productive to be become too fixated with them. Leave yourself some space for just enjoying the journey and you'll find you progress even faster. (Good advice from many experienced sources which I myself don't always remember to put in practice. )

Adults are all individuals just like children. I have one adult pianist who is playing gd8 pieces after 4yrs, another who is struggling with gd1 standard after nearly 2 years.
Both are active, intelligent women who watched their kids enjoy it and fancied a go.

Go on, MNT,
GO FOR IT!

Well I can now sing and play Danny Boy at the same time! OH is calling me Elton! I do think I will be like your second adult student though miffy.

Well even if you are, but enjoy it like she does, it'll be worth your while

Grade 6! Good grief, MusicalNitWit! I did set myself a tentative goal of being able to play Greensleves out of the Grade 1 flute book before I'm 40 (not telling you how long that gives me ) but I am impressed by your forward planning. Why Grade 6? Most threads here fixate on Grade 5 or Grade 8 as the standard of competency (although I don't know why.)

Danny Boy?? If I were ever blessed with the ability to play the piano and sing (this would be in an alternate universe - we had a very poor turn out for evening church last night and I was reminded again why I should only sing in a large group ) I would really like to be able to perform The Ballad of Barry and Freda by Victoria Wood.

Don't think it would work on the flute though.

Try telling Freda that !

MNW, my husband decided to learn the piano years ago and thought he'd start with Rachmaninov C# minor prelude cos he likes it! Well, it took him about a week to write all the letter names next to the notes on the page for the first 2 lines..which of course did him absolutely no good as he didn't even know where middle C was on the piano. There's just no telling some people

So I think Danny Boy is a much more sensible place to start!

Tondeafmum and EVERYONE ELSE!!!

I have not set a goal to get to grade 6 - I have no goals when it comes to me! Anyway my question was whether adults progress faster or slower than children, all things being equal, and if that was the case how long would it take an average adult to get to grade 6.

Sorry.
Do you not cry when you sing Danny Boy? I can't even sing "I cannot tell" in church without welling up - too many Irish wakes over the years.

No, I do not cry!!! I was gritting my teeth trying to force myself to get through the wrtched piece that I decided to sing it to take my mind of it! Give me the Skye Boat Song any day...

Not "The Skye Boat Song" - it has to be "Will Ye No Come Back Again?" - or ... ooh - what do people reckon are my chances of mastering "Flowers of the Forest" on the flute?

Returning to your original question - I know a lady who started learning the piano about the same time as my daughter (daughter was 8, the lady had just retired - aged 60). Nearly 3 years on there's nothing to choose between them in ability (Grade 5ish) - even though B1 had already been learning an instrument so should have had a head start.

Probably being retired helps - pretty sure I'd make better progress on my flute if I didn't have to go to work or look after children ... so maybe we could do our grade 6s together in another 25 years, MNW?

[quickly edited to turn MusicalNitTit back into MusicalNitWit - knew abbreviations were illegal for a reason]

Grrrr at you, for more reasons that one!!!