So i'm on the search for a new violin to take me through music college! My maximum budget is ?5500.
I looked in Cardiff violins yesterday and gosh there were so many lovely violins! My favourite 2 were a French violin and a German violin. The German violin had to be one of the ugliest violins i've ever seen The varnish was so dark it was practically black! It was also label-less which always puts me off as it gives me the impression that the maker wasn't very proud of their work or whatever Same goes for fake labels, surely if youd put your life and soul into producing this lovely violin youd wanna stick your own name in it!
Anyway I was told it was made in 1700s. It was soo loud even right up the E string which impressed me... and whenever i played a big loud round sound came out. But that was all it seemed to do...
I actually came across many violins that despite being very loud, the actual tone itself reminded me of a muted violin :s does that make any sense?!
I chose the French violin to take home on trial It's Chipot-Vuillaume, made in Paris in 1889. The maker has even signed the wood inside by hand! (as in there is the label but to the right of the label he's signed the actual wood.) It has a lovely reddish varnish and is in super condition It's not as loud as some of the others but the overall tone and character is so lovely, it makes a lovely warm violinny sound and is even over all the strings
I'm absolutely in love with it and would happily hand over the money right now. But am going to be sensible and go to another shop tomorrow to try some others... slightly reluctantly! Also, What if i somehow find something as nice as this one and end up in a hard situation to choose

here's a sound sample http://www.youtube.com/user/SpeedyLewBear?...u/0/-LTD6OZSOq0
i understand that i sound HORRIFIC with terrible intonation no need to point it out :| *ashamed*

I can't wait to get home to listen to this
am at work and all these links are blocked on the work computers grrrrrrr

good on ya Ffliwt!! I am so happy for you

Thanks im very worried as to what position trying different ones tomorrow is gonna put me in :|

p.s. that youtube thing really is horrific i sound like id expect someone on grade 5 to sound like, it's still beyond me how i got into music college. though admittedly i dont usually sound AS bad as the recording, it was recorded on my phone and i only started learning it a week ago but i'm very disheartened about my playing after listening to how awful i sound!

but thanks! hehe

If you're going to music college later in the year, wouldn't it be better to wait and get some input from your new teacher?

I'm already having lessons with my teacher there and he has asked me to get a new one. I'm taking it to him on Tuesday for his opinion

The violin certainly has 'the right sound' on the A&E strings, I'd be interested to hear across the other strings, particularly going up the G to see if it's balanced across them all. It's good to have some power at the bottom end and width of tone at the top.

By the way, you have lovely vibrato and continuity in your bowing

Thankyou Miffy Very nice of you. And yes i love the A and E especially the A. i love the D very much too its the G that isnt quite as great. It's not bad at all and sounds good in higher positions it's just i'd like a bit more power... i think thats the single only thing id change about it i might record a bach partita or something on the D and G strings to show you. Depends how out of tune it sounds

Yes, it was Bach Partitas I was thinking of when I said about the balance across strings. If you are worried about the strength of the G, ask your teacher to play it when you take it to him. You could ask him if it's you or the violin (if you see what I mean) and if it's something you and the violin can work on together, or whether you personally need a stronger G sound.

(no, I'm not nice, I'm honest, you are sounding good )

I certainly didn't sound that good when I took my grade 5!!

I think it sounds lovely and I also think you have beautiful vibrato!! (*aspires*)


Has it been played recently - could it be a case of needing 'playing in' to open out the G string?

That's what I wondered Lottie he's been sat on the shelf for a very long time... I remember playing him a very long time ago... Before christmas!! I look forwards to seeing what sound my teacher gets out of him tomorrow

Off to try some others today, quite worried - I should be excited! It took me a very long time to eventually choose George and now there willbe others on the scene! I'm already so attatched to George that I'm very worried of finding something better and having to send George back doesn't that sound stupid?! Obviously finding something better would be a great thing but I'd feel terrible for George ideal scenario... I prefer George to them all, come home and can officially say he's mine! (Surely I should be hoping to find an even better fiddle?! But he's perfect!). Its not just the sound that I love but he feels lovely to hold and play, he is beeaautiful and its nice to know the history behind him and the maker has signed him 3 times... Must have been very proud of what he made!
...-im blabbing on now has anyone guessed I like this violin? s

Nope, I don't sound like this at grade 5 either. I only wish I did!

Oh dear (shakes head) you named him...... now you have to buy him

I could make you a a very nice violin for a very reasonable price. I'll even sign it 4 times if you like

Hi Ffliwt,

I hope the violin hunt is going well. Did you go to the San Domenico shop today?

I know what you mean about worrying whether you're buying the "right" violin. I could barely play Calypso when I got her - I was so nervous. I'd played her several times before I got her and heard my teacher play her, but I was still scared that I should have bought the French violin I'd previously fallen in love with, but couldn't afford at the time. Now I'm sure I made the right decision.

I just had to keep reminding myself that a good violin will at least hold its value so even if I changed my mind I could sell her. Thankfully it didn't come to that, and now I have a violin that I shouldn't ever need to replace - well balanced tone all the way up the strings, no cracks, lovely profile, and a rich sound that is getting better with playing (she'd been sat in a case for a long time). She's too good for me at the moment, but I hope one day to be deserving.

I seem to be waffling here - but I think what I'm saying is if George feels right to you then go for him. As I understand it all the violins in Cardiff Violins have been set up in their workshop - any repairs would have already been done and sound post adjustments too, so you'd have no worries about that. He'll be just needing some waking up.

Would love to hear you and George playing a Partita.

Happy shopping.

I think 'gut' feelings (or your instinct) mean A LOT. So 'George' seems to be the right decision me thinks....

BUT here we are also talking about having the 'right tool' to get you through conservatoire too, soooooo....as mentioned, get the seal of approval from teacher tomorrow

I was lucky with Eowyn as I 'stumbled' upon her you see! I was not even looking to buy a violin 'really', I just wanted to 'try the feel' of a 7/8 violin or a 'smaller' violin and the 'devious' (but very nice in personality and looks) guy who works in there said 'we have two lovely 7/8 violins, why don't you have a go on them in our practice room and you can even take one home for a week as you can't possibly tell in just half an hour what it is REALLY like to have a 7/8 violin'
so off I went to the practice room......I knew the minute the bow caressed Eowyn that something was different about this volin but refused to openly admit it to myself as the price ticket on it was not very 'approachable' (cough cough) I really did NOT want to take it home as I knew it was a 'dangerous' game to play (to my bank account) but I did

the rest is history.....

Eowyn is my companion now and I never look back, there isn't one second I wish to play or own another violin.

But I don't go to conservatoire, if not I would have seeked the advice of my teacher, in this case I also seeked the advice of my teacher but he shrugged his shoulders and said to do as I wished as it was going to be 'my violin' and only I need to like it (fair enough! ). As in quality of the violin there is no doubts I had that checked and it is made by a reputable well known modern maker, I also bought it from a well known shop where they will take it as a trade in any time in future if I wish.

bach on one of mine.

Hufff went to the other shop. And as I exprcted was put off George he was saying its not even worth 4 grand and there's nothing special about it etc. But every time I tried one if his I was just like nopenopenope I want George, I just wasn't interested in even trying them. But then I came across one that possibly sounded slightly better than George but I by no means fell in love with the instrument annd can't see myself doing so. So now I'm confused gonna take both up to my teacher tomorrow and also look in turner violins. Meaning ill likely end up carrying 3 violins round birmingham!!! I knew hed try put me off George, I don't care how much he slags him off but suggesting I'm wasting money by buying him is really eating away at me.

If my teacher says George is the right violin and worth the money ill run as fast as I can to cardiff violins and hand over the money! If he says the other one I've brought home today is better... Ill most likely be quite disappointed. Though I haven't played it much yet so am trying (yet slightly failing) to keep an open mind

That sounds a bit unkind! I guess the guy wanted to make a sale from his shop (which one was it - sounds one to avoid) but being rude about George wouldn't endear me to him. Maybe if he'd offered some other violin and said why it would be an improvement in some specific terms (eg consistency of tone over all strings and neck) then fair enough but just being rude - that's not really on is it?

I suspect that even if he produced the "perfect" violin for you, if you bought it you'd never quite bond as that memory of how rude he was would be with you - unless it was a spankingly good violin at a VERY good price.

As for George being nothing special - well that's his opinion. Your violin has to feel like a part of you and if George feels like that then assuming he's sound (which I'd expect him to be coming from CV) then I'd say you pretty much have your decision. I understand that CV is not the cheapest violin shop in the world, but they have a good reputation for only putting on sale a violin they've got into tip top condition. So I suspect that ?4K includes all the work George would have needed. Ie you're not spending ?4k on a violin that will then need ?100s worth of setting up.

I hope when you meet up with your teacher you'll be reassured, Good luck.

I don't know if you know the story of beloved Hannah but I surprised myself with what happened and I KNOW I'm repeating myself but it was all an eye-opener for me....

I fell totally, utterly, completely and besottedly(!) in love with a German viola in Edinburgh one day. I didn't even take it home on trial because it was too expensive but I lost sleep and couldn't concentrate on anything else - I was lovesick!!

So a few days later, knowing I couldn't afford that one and knowing they didn't have anything else I liked I went to the Glasgow Violin shop.

I was expecting to fall in love but I didn't. Not in the slightest. And I was there for HOURS. But I was determined to trade Pan in so I took home the viola that sounded just 'okay' and felt just 'okay'.

I lost sleep and couldn't concentrate because I had just spent A LOT of money and didn't know if I'd done the wrong thing!! (I suppose, technically it was on trial but taking it back was a logistical nightmare so I was kinda stuck with it.)

Anyway, the change in Hannah over the next week was PHENOMENAL!!!!! The strings settled and the sound deepened and became GLORIOUS and I fell utterly, utterly in love! AND more and more in love each day still!


The reason I'm repeating myself, and I know you probably read this story earlier, is because it's amazing what can change with 'playing in'. Or conversely, it's worth trying out something that may not feel RIGHT to start with... who knows what may happen.

Don't compare everything to George. TRY to open your mind to the possibilities of the others and how they stand alone.

Then.... if you still can't see past George BUY HIM and may you both be Happy Ever After


p.s. I didn't realise how HARD it was looking for a new instrument. It was an extremely stressful fortnight for me and I was dreadfully worried about 'missing' The One, or making the wrong decision, or why I hadn't felt Instant Love!

Good luck

Thanks badstrad. Yeah he was basically just saying its a nothing special run of the mill violin, and that CV don't know anything about valueing violins. And basically made be feel as though buyimg him would be the 'foolish' thing to do. The violin I've brought home from him does sound nice, and is perhaps even stronger than George on the G and D but I don't see it as being a violin I could 'bond' with whereas I was in love with George before i left the shop with him and was awake for ages that night as I couldn't sleep cause I was so excited over him haha.I know the sound is by far the most important thing. But I want a violin that feels special to me. I'm just worried that maybe George isn't worth 5600. As this guy said... He said hed sell it at 3 and a half! What if I'm wasting thousands of pounds? :s

Lottie thanks I'm just like that - terrified of making the wrong decision or missing 'the one'... In cardiff violins I was staring at the fiddles I put back thing what if one of those was 'the one' and now I've put it back and missed it forever...
But George sounds so lovely already and has been on the shelf for atleast 6 months that I know of... Imagine how great he'll sound when he's played in and brought back to life

You are about to make an extremely important decision. Music college is highly competitive, and you can't afford to be held back by an instrument that doesn't do you justice. This is a decision that must be made firmly with your head and not your heart. All this "naming your violin" stuff is all very well in a tongue in cheek way, but don't forget that at the end of the day you are purely and simply buying a tool to do a job. You really need to take your teacher's advice without preconceptions.

Finally, please, never, ever expect a violin dealer to express an objective opinion on a fiddle that another dealer has for sale!

DiscoPants is right. Tell your teacher everything about the prices, your perception of the sounds etc and think carefully about what he says - he'll have seen many students in your position so will have the benefit of experience!


...then come back here straight away and tell us EVERYTHING he said!!


After going through the same experience I'm dying to find out what you decide. (My husband was astonished I lost sleep over a 'bit of wood' but now understands completely because he knows just how much Hannah means to me! )

Place I really liked... I took a violin for minor work and while I was there I asked for an insurance valuation, which turned out to be more than I expected but we had had it a few years by then. Duly insured it for that. Next year (or maybe the year after), I asked the same chap for an insurance valuation... and he gave it about half the value he had the previous time. Didn't comment but just said thanks and went away. I've never known where we are with the violin since.

My friends son needed a new violin last year and his teacher found him one by a modern Polish maker for ?4000. It sounds fantastic. It can carry well when needed but has also blended well in orchestra (he's in the NYO). He's been told by his teacher, who teaches at conservatoire, that it will do him for conservatoire and beyond. If it had been made in the UK it been more expensive. If you want the contact details PM me.

He had already tried several old violins but couldn't find one that did what he wanted it to do, and would do him for several years, at an affordable price.

If the shop has had "George" for a while I'd be surprised if someone else snapped it up imeadiately you return it. Do try as many as you can in your price range. Your teacher will guide you I'm sure. Do you have to have a new instrument for the start of term or would within the first term be ok? You really don't want to rush such an important decision.

(Not intending to divert the thread, please consider this as an aside, and I'll shut up)... Interestingly, daughter's violin is modern Polish too. She went through JD with only nice comments about it and no suggestion that she needed to change it, while other students of same teacher were advised/helped to upgrade. Of course, I don't know what they were playing. We came to conclude we got a bargain... with the only question mark the low valuation that year.

Discopants is (partially) right in that decisions need to be made with your head - ie. is this instrument going to suit your playing, meet your technical and musical needs over the next 'x' amount of years - it mustn't hold you back. But...where the heart bit comes in (and it's an extremely important bit) is that you must love playing it, it must be part of you for all you will be doing over the next few years otherwise everything will be an effort.

And a decent seller would not critisise what you have. Instead he would look at your choice carefully, decide what makes you like it, and find comparable violins within his own stock.

Any craftsman will come to love the tool that enables them to do their best work.

I havent read any of the replies yet so sorry if i miss something but ive taken one home from the other shop and im confused to say i think i have to rule George out now... huff. I almost didnt want to like any of them, but one did stand out tho i wasn tlike 'wow' i was almsot annoyed It doesnt have the original label which always puts me off. This one is only ?4500 - that will be enough to get me through music college right? :/ It does make a slightly nicer bigger fuller sound than George... and the luthier did say he would only charge ?3500 for George in his shop. I wouldnt say i'm in love with this one but i;ve barely played it yet just enough to realise its slightly better =/ I really did adore George so i feel bad now Surely i should be happy to find something even better? I feel that i could come to love this violin if i made it my own changed the pegs tailpiece etc. and got to know him better... i'm just disappointed about George!

I'm going to turner violins tomorrow they have loads so i might find something i fall in love with there. If not, it's bonding time with this one. I would be perfectly happy with it i just didn't have the same 'I LOVE THIS VIOLIN' that i did with George and when i play this one i feel guilty looking at George

I think that if i hadnt have come across George, this violin might have had a similar effect on me. Maybe when i take George back to the shop... try to forget about him and start getting to know this one i may love him just as much.
Now to go play!

Ok just played them both. Now i dont know. Which is better argghhh part of me says George the other half says no he's 'only worth ?3500 really' like this guy said. urghh. basically when he said that i totally ruled out buying George at the thought of wasting ?2100...

'Teacher' will surely help tomorrow, am sure
could we have a sound clip of 'the other one'

Ok i think it's definately in favour of the new one now... had a feeling that i was sounding a bit better on that one but i recorded them both and sound CONSIDERABLY better on the new one :|
i'll send you a bit of the czardas if you want its extremely out of tune tho was just a very rushed thing to help me make a decision
After making my decision i was like thats it i need to put George back in the case and focus on whats next, not sit there staring at him feeling painfully guilty. And literally cried putting him away

yes please, I'll have a bit of 'out of tune czardas' nothing can be worse than my painfully slow and dreadful 'cuckoo' (il Cucco it says on top of the music) from movement 1 of 'Summer' from Vivaldi Four Seasons I am practicing right now
(going onto 'la tortorella' next!! then 'gardelino' then 'vento borea' )

If the difference in valuation is becoming a major issue, perhaps you could have them both independently valued?
Take them to your teacher and get him to play both of them while you turn your back
Then close your eyes and get him to place each in turn on your shoulder so you can try them both sort of as a blind test.
Then get him to turn his back while you play.
3 tests (and a valuation) - see what conclusions you both come to

That's a very sweet sound

I agree that is one very nie sounding violin although can't help thinking the great sound is because the musician rather than the instrument being of extremely high quality.

On my way to turner violins in birmingham. If anyone could give me some directions hhow to get there from the train station thatd be great?!
Fingers crossed I find something I love.

And why can't you help thinking that?

so is it the player that is sweet or the playing?
((that's my favourite Partita by the way)

It's not a partita.

Loved the Bach. The violin sounds fabulous in that piece. I wasn't as convinced by the other clip but maybe that was the recording quality of your phone!
However, it would be interesting to see how George performs on something like the Canzonetta from Tchaik violin concerto.
Try something big, loud and romantic on the G and D strings.
It is important that you try violins out on a wide range of genres and that if you are comparing two, you compare them directly on exactly the same pieces.
Choose a lot of different types of playing to really test them out. Eg. long luscious deep notes; fast runs all over the violin; neat string crossings like Vivaldi; something with double stopping in and not forgetting artificial harmonics! (That's important to check)

George sounds like a fabulous violin for Bach but what is he like with other types of music?
I have a violin who can only play Mozart and Haydn! Well his Vivaldi is OK too. He has a lovely bright, clear sound and sounds lovely... but he hasn't got the power to pull off Bruch violin concerto for example - I have another violin for that. This second violin is now learning to play Mozart correctly and he is doing well... but he has taken a couple of years to brighten up enough to start producing the sound that I want.
Gosh I am a very demanding violin Mummy!!

Whoooooah there! The Bach isn't played on "George". It's one of mine. Glad you think it's fabulous, though.

GOT ONE! Will tell all when I get home. Irish name suggestions please?

Oops, sorry,
Solo SONATA

just testing..

I got really confused there. Is that you playing on one of yours or ffliwt?
But George played on the first clip?

"George" on first clip.

One of my del Gesu copies on 2nd clip (Bach). Not played by either me (I wish) or ffliwt, who I have not had the pleasure of meeting personally.

Confusion is my fault for hijacking the thread. Sorry.

Well that explains why the second clip sounded like it was a different violin... cos it was!
Lovely violin Discopants!

Well, Discopants, seeing as you hijacked the thread in the first place..can I ask you a question..?
Are there ways of mellowing/aging modern violins - tone-wise?
The clip of your violin is lovely, but very obviously modern. I know it's a question of taste, but are there ways of making a modern handmade violin sound older/more 'played in'? I know the obvious answer is 'if you like old, buy old', but it's just me wondering really..