What would be expected for an audition at the NCO or similar audition? I know it mentions two contrasting pieces but after current experience of a minor prep school music competition where DS achieved no positioning in the instrument he got into the RCM for I am left feeling confused. The children who won awards were performing long Sonatas and Concertos! Cleary his grade 5 piece was not up to much eventhough he won a silver with a grade 1 piece the year before.

So, I don't want to underestimate what is expected at these auditions. Two short G5 pieces were fine for the RCM but they were looking for potential whereas I assume the NCO are looking for the polished article - he would be in the U12 category for bassoon. Any advice?

It says on their website that bassoons are expected to have grades 3-5, so he could either play his exam pieces or other ones at the same standard.

He won silver last year... so he's had his turn. Cynical me??
I don't think you can compare a prep school music competition where all kinds of politics are at work to an audition for NCO.

As Chris H says, two of his exam pieces at grade 5 level (or other similar pieces would suffice) but they wouldn't expect a sonata or concerto in the audition. There wouldn't be time anyway.
You can only try and if he gets in he gets in and if he doesn't he doesn't. It all depends what the competition for bassoon is like in a particular year.
The NCO won't be looking for a finished article either - especially not for the U12 group. They are looking to see that he can play in tune and has a nice sound and that he is up to tackling the repertoire that they intend to learn during the course. He will also be given some sightreading during the audition to test this too.

At least one of the U12's is grade 8 on bassoon so although it says grades 3-5 the reality is that the candidates are much better!

Well you can either try or not try! By not trying DS has no chance whatsoever. By trying he is in with a chance. I seem to remember you were sure he wouldn't get into RCM either because there were so many people better than him.
As long as he understands that he may or may not get in and that it all depends who else is there on the day and how he plays on the day but that no matter how well he plays if there are other people who are better they will get the place and if there are not then he will get the place. This is part and parcel of musical life.

Just treat it as experience with auditioning. He'll still be under 12 for another couple of years, and next time he auditions you'll know what to expect. If you get too worked up trying to second guess them then he'll get worked up and won't play his best.

From my experience of elder daughter auditioning I was worried that she was using unsuitable pieces, particularly as they go extremely high and she kept getting comments about her intonation on the top notes. (Something she was aware of and sometimes was ok and sometimes wasn't) but using the same two pieces has recently had two successful auditions, after a couple of unsuccessful ones.

It's probably more important that they are contrasting, to show the full range of what he's capable of. It must be better to play a slightly easier piece well than to play a hard piece really badly. Leave them guessing as to whether he could have played something harder, rather than prove that he can't.

It doesn't really matter if he doesn't get in this time, and it's good experience of auditioning. My 17 year old has only ever done two auditions, and both of those within the last couple of months. I've said to him it doesn't matter if he doesn't get in ( although it would be nice if he did) the main thing is he's getting experience of auditions. In the last one he played the best he could, so in the end we know that if he doesn't get in, there was someone better than him there on the day. It's just one of those things.

Epihanya succesfully auditioned last year for the under 13s (violinist not bassoonist!). The audition that she had been dreading was actually fine - they were really sensitive to the fact that it was quite stressful! I think that they are looking for children that are confident performers who can communicate in a musical way. They are not necessarily looking for virtuosi, but I get the feeling that sight reading is very important, given the amount of material they have to cover in the week long courses. Your son should play pieces that are within his ability range that show his playing to his best advantage, not necessarily something impossibly difficult, and practise his sight-reading!

And he should definitely audition - as others have said, if he isn't successful this year he will have a better idea of what is needed next year.

Do you know what level the sight-reading will be. If the levels required is grades 3-5 do you think it will be grade 5, higher or lower?

The only one we have ever been involved with Son#1 did two contrasting pieces, one from the exam syllabus, and one 'off piste' to suggest a broader musical life than just exam material. His exam piece was below the technical standard of the other one, but designed to show his musicality. We were told they are looking for accuracy, and an enthusiasm that makes them want to be around the young person for a week.

As far as the sight reading goes, apparently he was given a section of a longer piece which was in graded parts - so the easier bits at the beginning, becoming progressively more difficult. His comments sheet said he had been given the difficult section to see how he coped - he was at the very bottom of the age group and I guess they were worried he might be able to memorise but not read, which would have made the week's ensemble reading pretty tough.

I seem to think there is sometimes a teachers reference for these things too - am I wrong about that? i certainly put teach's name down on the form.

Finally I agree with all the sound advice of the others - if he gets in, fantastic - hope he has a fab time. If not, then it is simply not the right place or time for him, and there will be lots of other opportunities. It is such a lottery as to which instrument, who else applies and how the wind is blowing on the day (quite literally with a bassoon!)

Good luck! And enjoy - they really did seem to go out of their way to be friendly and relaxed, which was lucky as I was accompanying, and I was terrified!

The level stated on the website is merely as a guideline depending on what people put down on the application form, as they ask for the level the applicant is. In reality, they might or might not play a higher level piece.

From our own experience of NCO in last two years (although daughter is a violinist and not a bassoonist!), it'll be better to play something that is polished, and can be played to perfection and with musicality, even if it's slightly lower level. They want to see natural musicality in the child but also assess them for technique and accuracy on their instrument with two contrasting pieces as well as two pieces of sight-reading. The child has an opportunity to look at one of these beforehand in the warm-up room and run through it, while the other is given in the audition room and is unprepared. Both have a few lines of music, and they often tell you where to play until if you're auditioning for a specific level of the orchestra, so for instance, the Under 12 players will play the first 4 lines, and so on. However, it's up to the child as to how much of it they can read and play confidently, so there's no harm in sight-reading the whole sheet if they're able to. My daughter told me later that both times she had sight-read the whole piece rather than up to the point that she was asked to. Hope that makes sense!

They don't ask for a reference from the teacher. They do record the audition so that decisions can me made objectively at a later stage, so the child should be prepared for it, although it's done in the most unobtrusive manner. They ask a few questions sometimes just to assess the personality of the child, but being outgoing or otherwise doesn't make a difference to the result.

There's no harm in auditioning as they give quite detailed feedback and so it's always useful.

Good luck!!

Thanks for the feedback and advice and it is very useful to gain the detailed feedback after the audition.

As for contrasting pieces, could a Sonata/Concerto be played all the way through as often there are contrasting movements, and could this count for two pieces or would one movement from one piece and an entirely different movement from another piece of music be expected?

I had success in school music competitions primarily due to my choice of programme - (a) I played things that I "felt" and (b) I always had a range of tempi, mood and period. This was, admittedly, a 15-minute recital programme, which gave a bit more scope, but still, I wouldn't, for example, choose two movements of a baroque sonata (yes I know, I never would anyway, but ykwIm). I usually went classical, romantic, 20th century - but not necessarily in that order, and always finished with a barnstormer. Not quite so easy for a bassoonist as, eg, for a violinist, but possible (I THINK the year I played the bassoon I did Stefan de Haan, Mozart last movement and I can't remember what else and I can't get into the loft to find the reports).

I know of people who have played contrasting movements of a concerto/sonata and got into NCO. So, of course, this isn't seen unfavourably. It might, however, be a good idea to show understanding of different stylistic interpretations but again that might not be such a huge issue for Under 12s.

Perhaps the instrumental teacher would be better placed to give advice on this?

I found the NSSO today whilst looking for another course:

http://www.nsso.org/

Age 13-19 is around grade 7+ and 8-13 is grade 3-5+ so more accessible than some of the other courses.

Mods, can this thread get moved to the parents' section?

According to the NSSO website the standards are as follows:

"To qualify for entry for NSSO you must be aged 14 -18 and still be at school (or Sixth Form College) in the summer term immediately prior to the course. You will be studying your instrument at a high level (working towards Grade VII* or above) and we may request a reference from your teacher.

For Young NSSO you must be aged 8 -13. It is expected that you will be studying your instrument at a level between Grade III and Grade VII and we may request a reference from your teacher"

so grades 3 - 7 for 8 -13 seems very reasonable. It's worth noting that the course takes place in what is usually the first week of the public schools holidays so if your child is at a state school then they will need to take time off for the course. Hope that helps

My daughter went on the NSSO course this year and thoroughly enjoyed it. She is at a state school, but it was after GCSEs , so no problem to attend. The school, which is very strict on attendance, would allow leave for this type of thing from my experience anyway and class it as educational activity. The concert at the end was really great. The audition was very informal too, someone from the NSSO came into her school at the end of a day and did the audition there, although that might have been because he was based very locally, but we were just told to contact this man and find a mutually convenient time. They were also advertising vacancies for certain instruments after the official closing date for applications, mainly strings and horns I think.

There's also the English Schools Orchestra? No audition for this and the course is October half term at Haberdashers Aske.
My daughter is doing this for the first time this year so I'll let you know if she enjoys it.
http://www.esoc.gb.com/index.php

But you do need to be grade 8+!

Oh sorry! I didn't realise
My daughter was recommended for it by someone and it came through her school so I hadn't read any literature or heard of it until recently.
(still like the 'no audition' idea though!)

Looks interesting, relatively inexpensive too. (as residential courses go)

Does anyone know if there is a wind version of this one that would be open to sax players?

There's the National Youth Wind Ensemble
http://www.esoc.gb.com/index.php
And the Childrens one too. They may have sax?


whoops wrong link!
http://www.ncwo.org.uk/pages/nywe.htm

National Youth Wind Orchestra take sax players:

http://www.nywo.org.uk/join-nywo/

Thank you, I already know about the National Youth Wind Orchestra - I was just wondering if there was something else as a back up plan if son didn't get in

Do you have any County Youth bands locally? Ones that are above local music centre ones but not quite National?

Actually, looking at the website of the National Youth Wind Orchestra I have realised I got confused and have applied to the National Youth Wind Ensemble instead - does any know what the difference is?


Yes, the dates have always clashed with other commitments so he's never yet made it there - it is an option, though.

From what I can see, the Ensemble courses are in Hertfordshire and the Orchestra ones are in Banbury. Both seem to have lower standard/younger orchestras that you can start in, then move up, and both cost lots!

Understandable mistake. For some reason NYWO seems to be less well known, though I suspect it is older . NYWE is one of the many "national" groups under the umbrella of National Children's Wind Orchestra, while NYWO is a completely different organisation.

My daughter has attended the NYWO Focus on Chamber courses this year - one at Easter, and one in a couple of weeks time - so we have a little experience of NYWO but none of NYWE. They seem rather similar. Daughter was offered a place in NYWO this year, on the strength of her audition only, and before she'd taken Grade 7. She turned it down in favour of the chamber music course. She received several requests for her to move to the main orchestra subsequently, so overall I formed the impression they are not exactly oversubscribed - there are so many of these national this that and the others these days. No idea how it is for sax players though. Furthermore, some stuff we received through the post suggested they have a slot at the Proms in 2012, so maybe competition for places will be tougher this autumn.

I see there is a video on youtube of an item from their Easter concert, but the sound quality isn't great.

I think I may apply for both. It was strange, the NYWO was the first one I found, and printed off a form, then when I googled it the next time the other one came up and I just thought they'd changed the website. The audition centre is more convenient for the NYWE though.

The attraction of NYWE is that you audition and they then put you in the most suitable group based on your audition so if you aren't quite ready for NYWE they will offer you a place in NCWO which takes place at the same venue at the same time. I have had students who have done NCWS, NCWO and NYWE and they all thoroughly enjoyed it (although the lad who did NYWE wasn't over the top with the music but that was more about him than the repertoire choices).

I recently spoke to the organiser at NYWO about their course and was a bit taken aback to find her rather aloof and judgemental of the other organisations - she basically told me theirs is the best and just because one of mine was principal on their instrument in the National Youth Wind Orchestra of Wales didn't mean she would get in to NYWO as they are "of course, that much better than the Welsh". I had been quite open-minded up until then even though I had heard some bad reports about the woman who runs NYWO but that did leave me a bit staggered.

When my daughter (clarinettist) auditioned last year, she thought she was auditioning for the chamber music course, nominally for players of age 15+ and up to grade 7 standard. She was a bit taken aback, therefore, to be told to prepare 2 grade 8 level pieces for the audition. I queried it and was told they just needed to hear her play and that 2 of her grade 7 pieces would be fine. That's what she played. She auditioned on a Saturday and by Tuesday had an offer of a place in the main orchestra - which she didn't want! This offer came despite the fact that auditions were still to be held at various other centres. This seemed a bit weird, and didn't really give the impression that they were fighting off clarinettists, or that entry was very competitive. The fact that they then kept on offering her a place in main orchestra and, each time, could not apparently remember that she didn't want it was also exasperating.

When she attended the Easter course, the main orchestra course was going on at the same time, though to be fair she was not much involved with those attending. The chamber music course aimed to recruit 20 people but there were only 9 (a second bassoon had to be borrowed, as needed, from the main orchestra). Some of the players from the chamber music course stayed on at the end to make up numbers in the main orchestra. As we were travelling home my daughter commented on the general lack of players in both ensembles and said that "they" (I'm not sure who!) made out they were the best in the country but, actually, an awful lot of people there appeared to be people who lived locally and had chosen to attend the course because it was convenient......

So, I doubt they are much better than the Welsh!!

That said, my daughter did enjoy the course she did, got lots of experience playing quintets, which she would not have got otherwise, and seems to be looking forward to the next one. I don't think she had much contact at all with the administrator to whom you refer.

As I implied above, I think there are now so many of these groups with names chosen to make them seem prestigious that their customers are spoilt for choice, and some are struggling to keep numbers (and no doubt, consequently, standards) up.

That's a bit like the situations I have heard of too - one of my daughters friends went one year on trombone and they needed a euph so he phoned his mate who travelled up and joined in. The repertoire they were playing that year certainly didn't jump out at me as being testing for a national group (unlike the National Youth Wind Orchestra of Wales who performed David Maslanka's Symphony No.2 in my daughter's first year and some pretty big stuff again this year). It's a shame really because I do like to encourage my students to give the groups a go and the opportunity to play at the proms would be incredible for any young musician.

NYWO is definitely a bit of an odd one, but that's not to say it isn't worth doing. My daughter did the main course and got a lot out of it, the repertoire was mixed, interesting and challenging and it was definitely a different experience being in a wind orchestra as opposed to a wind band.

NYWO does seem to struggle some years to get certain instruments, but the year my daughter was in it the standard was very high indeed, certainly on a par with the other, more famous, national youth ensembles. The age range is higher, so there were many people on the course who were studying music at conservatoires or university, including a couple of Oxbridge music scholars. The end of course concert was a real treat.

However, the organisation leaves a lot to be desired, right from the top down. Auditions were a bit farcical - we heard nothing about our date, then when I rang was told that venue was no longer taking place and I had apparently been sent a letter, but could I come to London the following day! Duly did so, only to meet and chat to a few other parents who all had the same story - different original venues and dates but they had been cancelled and allegedly letters had gone out but none had been received...

Organisation was also a bit fluffy on the course itself, but not enough to spoil it. Daughter's ultimate verdict was that she had really enjoyed the course, particularly the sectionals, repertoire was great, the experience of being in a wind orchestra was great and although she decided not to go for it the following year, she hasn't ruled out doing so again - she will still qualify for a few years yet. She also made some great friends there, including many that she met again at the conservatoire auditions a bit later on, and she has stayed in touch with some.

A friend of hers has done the Focus on Saxophones course for a few years, then last year was offered a last-minute place on the main course. She loved it and has gone back this year too. For her, and other sax players we met, it was a unique experience because of the repertoire played and the kind of orchestra it is - sax players just don't get that sort of playing usually.