My daughter (a quite small and quiet nearly 11) is off to Secondary School in September and her current Primary School have let me know that they consider she may be a bullying target.
Their reasons are threefold (and make me growly. )
1) She is academically quite bright
2) She is a practising Christian
3) She plays a musical instrument

As far as I am concerned these are three good things which I wouldn't want to change and since she isn't about to start busking in the corridors or handing out tracts in the dinner queue I really can't see the problem.
There've been some positive things said on the parents' forum recently about good peer support for music at secondary school so I thought I'd throw it open to you all.

What were your experiences at school? Do musical kids really find it harder to fit in?

Particularly concerned for the health and safety of a relatively pricey rental violin - I remember my sister's guitar getting chucked off the back of a bus.

Other kids used to laugh at my violin case and call it a coffin - it was a very old wooden one. However, I can't remember being particularly bothered by it. I was also a Christian and got teased for going to church, which again did not particularly bother me.

My son has played instruments right through secondary school, and it has never been a problem at all, but the school does have a thriving music department.

What is the school like that she is going to? There are a decent of students who play the violin at my son's comprehensive.

Just noticed you are a fellow Jasper Fforde fan

My daughter was bullied, and was known as the geek with the flute. For some reason, no one made fun of drummers or guitarists, only those who loved classical music. Things were OK at first, until the teenage years began, and peer pressure reared it's head. I think things would have been easier had she succumbed, but like your child, she has a strong sense of right and wrong, and continued on her own path. We had many nights of tears, even having prom ruined for her.
Now she is in 6th form, things are fine. The other students have matured, and the bullying ones have mostly left or been told that they were not eligible for 6th form.
Try not to worry too much. There are fears when your child starts secondary school. In primary, you know the other Mum's from the playground, and all of a sudden, your child is making friends with people you have never met. If your daughter is as sensible as mine, then she will quickly drop those who turn out to be very different from her, and will eventually find someone she clicks with. Even if she goes through secondary school with only one close friend, that's all it takes.
I'm now worrying about who my daughter will mix with at Uni. She has, probably because of what she's been through, chosen a very small university, where there will only be 30 people in her year on her course, and where the friendliness of the campus was stressed on our visits.
Wish her all the best in September, and remember that in secondary school, there will be a couple of hundred people in her year to choose friends from, not just the 30 in her form, so she's bound to be fine. Also, some schools run a buddy or mentoring system for incoming year 7's. My son was a mentor, when he entered year 8, and loved it.

I have told you of a very musical, strong Christian school for DD to go to!

Who needs to know she plays an instrument? If she isn't getting lessons at school then it need not be mentioned but, surely lots of girls play instruments?

TBH I think it's disgraceful what the school have said. Firstly your not an ignoramous (except when it comes to music ) so you don't need it spelling out that DD may be a target, and are they telling you so she should dumb down her academics and music and give up on God?

Hmm... I got bullied for all of the above and more; but it was on and off. The music was more of an issue at Primary school. Being a Christian is something that may become an issue if your daughter makes it one; RE lessons are the biggest hazard. The funny thing was, that when I was at secondary school, I wasn't very sure of my faith at all, and rarely went to church at all. The biggest issue I had was that I was considered "posh" and a bit of an outsider by some of the other children at my schools, and the things you've mentioned were just aspects of that.

The thing is though, that every child and school is different. (I was at a very lower end Comprehensive and most of the pupils lived in council houses). EVERY child gets teased and bullied at school sometimes. There isn't any particular risk factor: It could be that they are "ginger" or a bit podgey, or say the wrong thing at the wrong time. It could be a strong accent, or hanging out with an old friend who isn't popular. The only thing you can do is give your daughter as much confidence as possible: Try not to let her pick up on your anxieties, because being nervous or expecting to be bullied attracts it! I also think it is wrong for the Primary school to make you worry!

Hopefully she'll sail through happily with the same ups and downs as everyone else. Despite some difficulties, I have many happy memories of secondary school: It was a vast improvement on what I put up with at Primary!

I was teased/bullied a bit at secondary school, but more for being a good girl and doing all my work than for the music. Must admit that music kept me sane, gave me a place to be, and I used to do alot of practice in break times too/or choir/orchestra etc. Loved it when I was a 5th form prefect...in the music department!

Secondary schools can be really stupid sometimes. My niece was bullied and her teacher suggested that she should keep her head down and not appear so keen and clever. There seemed no suggestion of booting out the idiots who thought it wrong to want to learn, at school! I explained to my son's prospective form teacher about how he had a jaundiced view of school, due to not having been taught anything he didn't know for at least two years. She assured me she wouldn't let this continue at the high school then conveniently forgot the whole conversation and constantly complained about...well, guess what. She, it turned out, was a bully herself with a deep fear of children who were cleverer than she was (and in later years I've come to realise that this is probably most children!).

But I wasn't bullied for any of those three things you mentioned. I can remember being laughed at occasionally but not for being clever or musical or a church goer. I really wish schools wouldn't see the person being bullied as the problem. If they got a proper handle on the real problem, the bullies, things would be better for everybody. they will alwasy hide behind lack of proof, but these days, with cameras everywhere, the missing proof should be a lot easier to come by, and making a fuss therefore more fruitful.

Kids get bullied for anything. Whether they practice a faith or play and instrument, are smart or thick, thick hair or thin hair, blond or brunette, tall or short...anything can be a target nowdays.

All I can say is that my old school I left 12 years back is much more accepting than it used to be. Back when I was there, anyone fat, or gay, or with braces or bad skin etc etc etc would be tormented. Now those things don't seem to matter so much.

Your daughter will probably be fine. Few people will mock her for her faith as even if people don't know if they believe, they don't wanna pee off God. The fact that she plays an instrument will hopefully not affect her as its a good skill. I remember being envious in school about people with instruments, not bitter. And if she's smart even better - she can outwit any idiots

I wasn't bullied for my music or for being bright apart from being asked if I had a gun in my clarinet case, I was however bullied about my clothes which were bought too big for me to grow into and distinctly untrendy. Hopefully as long as your daughter has enough self esteem to be confident about her music/religious beliefs/academic ability she is less likely to be targeted. If she can appear to not care about unkindness the bullies are likely to leave her alone, if they get a reaction they are more likely to continue

My eldest daughter was bullied at Primary school for no particular reason. The person had a dysfunctional homelife and was a bully. They pickled on anyone and everyone becuae she retaliated and the bully got a reaction it made things worse. By the time secondary school came round she had learnt to evade relationships not purely due to the bullying but this came on top of a teacher at Primary conditioning pupils. The teacher had a breakdown the year after daughters class moved up.

My youngest has always had a strong set of friends and has never really been bullied. I think people tried it on with her but she put them in their place. There has never been a problem with music but I suspect that's because the management and music teacher didn't give her any extra attention and did everything they could to ignore it. Members of her form were very supportive when the music teacher tried to isolate her. She's also pretty strong and fairly outspoken not the type to be easily scared.

The set of friends the youngest has are ones that she more or less made when she was towards the end of year 7. Some people have joined the group but there has been a strong core. They are very close. One of them has been along to concerts and they all supported her recently when she was asked to busk at lunch time for charity. This is an inner city comprehensive with no musical tradition.

As it's a faith school there is no bullying over being a christian. I don't think they make a big deal of religion or religious beliefs. They assume they all share the same faith, which by and large they do. Outside of school youngest mixes with people of various creeds and it just isn't an issue for her or them.

The ethos of the school is academic and most of the friends are in the same ability group. They are supportive of one another generally and respectul of each others interests. Thinking about it they pretty much all come from similar backgounds in the sense that there is strong parenting.

High school is daunting even when it's second time round but it doesn't have to be horrendous.

In drama the teacher actively encouraged the more natural performers to support the weaker/ less experienced ones whether they were friends or not. This seems to have worked well and shows how a good teacher can influence the situation.

I was never bullied during my school years. In fact the younger kids at my lat school were telling me how good they thought my ability was when it came to playing the violin after they had heard me play at a school music compettion. Shame my 6th Form colleagues were not as impressed.

Unfortunately these days peope get bullied even if they are slghtly different in any way to others around them.

I think many children are bullied. My son was targeted by one other boy in his form in year 7, and I had a real job to get him back to school after the summer holidays. However, in year 8 the children were setted, this boy was not in the same sets, and tutor times were short, so the problem went away. One of my son's friends felt so bullied that his parents seriously considered moving schools at the end of year 9, but in the end his friends convinced him to stay and things improved (though they sent his younger brother to a different school).

If your child is bullied, it's important to listen and to take the action your child wants. Mine didn't want me to go to the school, and as it was relatively low level bullying (part of the problem was his own thin skin) I agreed to let it ride. If things had got worse, though, I'd have been in there like a shot.

Don't assume your daughter will be bullied though. My daughter was never bullied, though some of her friends were, and she was in the same position as yours is. Learning to deal with ones peers, nice or nasty, is all part of growing up, and parents have to be careful about rushing in as they can make the problem worse.

Bullying is a real problem and not necessarily a minor one, but unless your DD's current school is giving you some suggestions along with the scary talk, how are their warnings helping you?

In retrospect, I've learned the value of Plan B. I would go back to your DD's teachers and ask for their advice on what to do if their fears are justified (always helps to know what the staff think the right procedure is) and to also get your own Plan B started. You'll feel better if you have a realistic (however difficult) alternative, and it's hard to plan and organize when things are urgent and you are emotionally stressed.

*

I don't think it is elitist or escapist to choose not to walk down one road if you have another one available to you. And it is certainly not escapist to have a Plan B!

All the best to your DD at her new school.

I went to a small infant school in a country town and then to the attached junior school. I have no recollection of any bullying at that stage though I do remember being picked on by a boy at, of all places, Sunday School. But it was very mild ?just kid? stuff. We moved to London where at junior school I was an outsider as a ?new? girl with a funny accent
(Somerset) but again although quarrels were fairly frequent between all of us I don?t remember any real bullying. At my
My grammar school (all girls) things were also civilised. There were groups of friends which could be described as ?cliques? perhaps but these were usually centred around common interests. I expect some girls felt left out. However, I don?t remember any bullying either for reasons of faith ? we had a strong Scripture Union group - and there were one or two Jewish and Catholic girls excused from assembly. Girls were admired rather than bullied for playing musical instruments. But all that was back in the days when there was more respect for academic achievement and for other people?s religious beliefs.

I am not a parent but I have had many years of classroom experience and I can honestly say that bullying is very difficult to detect. You can often suspect but since the victims find it very hard to confide in teachers and the perpetrators are often quite cunning it isn?t always easy to spot. Sometimes when it comes to light it is from a very unexpected quarter.

I think a lot of good advice has been given by parents who have posted here about their children?s experiences. Perhaps the warnings given to the OP by the junior school are simply meant to raise parental awareness. It doesn?t mean to say the child will be bullied ? only that in some similar cases this has happened. If I were a parent I think I would be reassured rather than worried by this advice ? particularly if it were the first child of the family to be going to secondary school.

Here in France at the moment we have the problem of the DSK case and the multitude of points that have arisen from it ? namely that bullying and abuse of power can exist not only in schools but in the work place as well. I think we should all be aware of this shameful aspect of society and its flip side ? that people can be wrongly accused of bullying.

Since the power of schools to nip things in the bud and to punish minor offenders is, these days, almost nil, it isn?t surprising that things can get out of hand. As a teacher my advice would be to watch out for signs of bullying and to deal with it if it happens. I don?t know that I would always agree that one should do exactly what the bullied child wants but their feelings should be at least taken into account. In certain circumstances I think it is justifiable to keep the child at home until a safe environment can be guaranteed. Changing schools may help but that is a very individual choice to be made if things are really serious.

In the end I cannot see how any child or adult can either learn or work effectively in a stressful situation. The quality of their work is bound to suffer. As for the bullies ? I accept that they too need help in learning what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. They may have reasons for their behaviour but a reason is not an excuse. Reasons can be dealt with. Excuses alone - whether made by the bully or their representatives are sheer cowardice.

Gets off soap box!!

Couldn't agree more. I was bullied, or should I say the attention of the school bullies, because my dad owned a clothes shop! I know, what can you say to that.

Tough one this.

On the contrary I believe whoever at the school blew the whistle was doing you a favour. The are not telling DD to change, they are telling both of you what to expect. This is exactly what happened to me and for the same reasons. I refused to change and please support your daughter and allow her to do the same with your support.

When she is bullied it is not her fault it is the fault of the bullies.

Be her advocate and allow her to grow a thick skin with your support. Stand up to the school as your daughter has a right to be educated in safety.

Last week middle england were appauled at a Panorama expose to do with the bullying of Vulnerable Adults. I wish they would wake up and smell the coffee about the damage done in the name of equality when "different kids" are bullied for the very reasons that make them so vital, and valuable and in turn vulnerable.

Secondary school pretty much ruined my life from the age of 11-16, I left at 16 as I could face no more of it.

My music stuff was never a massive issue, was maybe teased a couple of times but that was't the main target. I was in top set for everything so academic ability didn't come into it either, due to the other kids I mixed with but I was NEVER "good" enough to join in with them ....

I was far too "posh" - because I had a lot of friends who went to private school and I try to speak clearly and without slang.

I was far too "rich" - because my parents let me travel the world with them, my mum was outwardly into cars and they were self employed, yet I bet had they actually have known what my parents earnt, more of the other kids were in actual fact "richer".

I was far too "weird" - because I said what I thought. Liked "uncool" things, like playing the clarinet, cars and motorbikes.

I was far too "ugly" - because I liked to dress smartly and didn't like wearing trainers with everything! Oh, and because I didn't wear so much make-up no one could see my face and I wore glasses!

I was "fat" - not sure how this came about, I was no fatter than the other kids, left school at 16 a healthy size 10.

This rubbish went on for five years in which time I grew to hate how I looked and felt about myself, loathed that I couldn't be "normal" and just plain confused in a lot of ways!

Kids will be kids and, for whatever reason, there will always be the picked on and the pickers-on. Usually, it's pretty hard to predict and/or spot but that can just make it harder for any child unlucky enough to be a target.

As mum-of-several and teacher to many more (in several schools) my advice would be not to expect that it will automatically happen but to make sure you stay in touch with your child to make sure that if they go through a phase where something (or someone) starts to bother them it can be sorted quickly before it escalates. While children are at primary school this is much easier than when they get swallowed up by a huge (by comparison) secondary school!

Almost no-one gets through secondary school without finding themselves on the wrong end of someone else at some point or other - but in learning to deal with other people our children should also have a valuable opportunity in preparing for life in the workplace and beyond. Don't assume from the outset that the worst will happen but be prepared to have to offer support at times if needed, if only to help your child grow into a fully fledged adult.

I really do think teachers could do more!

Doing activities or being able to go into the library to read can be a real help to kids who really don't get on with the others at school. However, I think more parents should be willing to move their kids out of a nasty school situation. If I had children, I would be very careful were I sent them to school and any hint of trouble I wouldn't be afraid to move them.

Interesting... In my experience, it is much, much more common for children to be bullied/shunned if they AREN'T Christian (or Jewish), and I don't think I've ever encountered the opposite - even proselytizing (which I must confess annoys me to no end) is taken relatively well I've rarely seen music being a problem either, especially for girls (for boys, string instruments are generally considered less "masculine"), but then again my school district has a strong music program, so being involved with music at some time or another is pretty common.

For me, the main problems (and I don't consider bullying to have been a major problem for me) were:

1. The fact that I am of Indian descent - this wasn't explicitly mentioned ever, but in general Indian children tend to have a rougher time than East Asians or Caucasians where I live

2. Not particularly attractive - and I didn't consider it worth the time to apply all the makeup/hair products/etc. that would be necessary to achieve this

3. Academically capable

4. Quiet (this is in real life, not online, unfortunately for all of you )

5. Shy/easily intimidated (again, only in person...)

6. Inclined to befriend those who for whatever reason were even lower on the "social ladder" than I was - and of course I don't regret it! I made some of my best friends this way

and most importantly...

7. Completely and utterly lacking in even basic athletic ability

For basically every year that I was in school after primary school (and even then it may just be that I don't remember primary school very well), the 4-5 hours a week of mandatory "physical education" class were by far the most torturous hours of the week. I would genuinely stay as far away from the ball/puck/whatever as possible because I was terrified of making a mistake and being jeered at (which I was even while I was avoiding the ball, but I found it to be the lesser of two evils). It's funny how after they were done making my hour living ######, some of the same people would then turn around and sweetly ask me to help them with homework, etc., as per item 3

The good news is that once I entered high school (I don't know how this corresponds to the British system, but I was 14-15), I found a group of close friends who shared with me academic interests and in many cases some of the personality characteristics above, and since coursework was stratified according to academic ability, I basically only had to interact with those who were on my wavelength, so to speak (with the exception of the aforementioned physical education classes, which I continued to dread...). Now that I'm at university, I'm with people who are even more like me and nobody ever tests my athletic ability So in summary, the middle years (11-13/14) can be tough, but it usually only gets better from there

Your daughter's teacher only had her best interests at heart and I am sure were hoping to let you know that something MAY happen and you should keep you eyes open. If they hadnt said anything, and things happen that just went over your head you MAY have wished they had warned you. Its like this - no matter how many zillion parents warn a new parent about sleepless nights with a new baby it still comes as a horrendous shock, you say to the experienced parent "you didnt tell me it would be this bad!" "Oh but I did" is the reply.

So now you have been "warned", you can keep your eyes open and have quiet little chats with your daughter about how to respond in certain situations. You may be surprised, she could blossom in Secondary School, make many friends and cope quite well.

My own son was bullied in secondary school. He was tiny, ADHD, dyslexic, came from a prep school, spoke 'posh' and had a dreadful way of shouting out in class which instantly proved a hit with fellow classmates who teased him until he "cried like a girl" causing even more bullying. He wrote with a fountain pen so this was regularly removed from him by one of the other boys every Monday morning! He remained the shortest in class until year 11. But they could not take his trumpet away from him. My husband went just once to the school gate and made it quite clear that they were risking #### if they even attempted to touch our sons instrument

Many were in fact envious of his performance in the Orchestra and Jazz Band, especially when he went on the Music Tour or played at the Albert Hall. The Bullies were invariably never on these tours. Eventually the bullies grew tired and one day they shared chips on a bus home then when short of a player they put him in the invisable goal for football. They somehow seemed to have sorted itself out. The teachers were all aware and kept and eye on things but he had to deal with a lot of it himself enroute from school and home or where ever they werent any teachers. He survived the seven years (loved it he says now!!! ) said if we had interfered too much it would have been worse.

Just try not to worry too much remember that there will be many things happening in Secondary school as your own daughter grows, develops and learns to cope with the social challenges. In fact all the kids are growing up.

Good Luck

I have at various times during secondary school (and primary - we had a small close-knit class of 25) been picked on for simply being different. At times it has been:
glasses and haircut (they used to call me Edna Mode after the character in the Incredibles...I now wear contacts);
academic ability particularly in Maths;
lack of athletic brilliance/any co-ordination except in playing the piano;
weight (I am fairly normal but there are an awful lot of very skinny and 'popular' girls in my year);
clothes;
lack of make-up;
'posh' voice (i.e not using 'like' as every other word);
spending lunchtimes in the library or music block instead of on the field.
Aside from this last bit, the music hasn't been a problem, though. Our school has a strong music department and it's seen as impressive/dedicated to be doing 5-6+ music ensembles per week, rather than 'geeky'. Music has kept me sane as I know that everyone else in the band/choir/orchestra is as obsessed with music as I am

I get teased at Cadets about my height but I can tell they mean well and would stop if I asked - it's not something I can change and I don't really mind being small.

Interestingly I don't think being Catholic has been a problem at school - as I'm quiet I didn't often get asked to speak in RE lessons. It is not a faith school, which was a change from the C of E, assemblies-every-day primary, but that didn't seem to make a difference. 11-year-olds making friends tend to ask about hobbies, pets, siblings, etc. and don't immediately ask about religion. In my experience.

Interestingly, my sister asked if my son would stop singing when he goes to secondary school in September. Hadn't crossed my mind! But as so many have said, you can be bullied for anything or nothing. I THINK that my response to the school would be "Right, so you think my child will be a target. Tell me about your behaviour policy, your school values and ethos, how you promote responsible and inclusive behaviour, show me your policy on dealing with bullying, start working on this famous transition plan and give us some help in developing appropriate skills and behaviours in our child".

oops I think you struck a chord... I don't think that my son's likely to be targeted for brains or musicality or christianity (although he does have all three ;-) ) as I haven's observed that in others there; but he is quite likely to be targeted for being small and immature and having a very short fuse. And the only answer to all of those, realistically, is time...

I hope it doesn't happen. I think children will use anything as an 'excuse' for victimisation so it's really more to do with the social dynamics of her classmates whether she will be singled out. So hopefully she will make good friends who either share her interests or support her with them.

There is an element of teasing though that most kids 'suffer' where it's a good life-lesson for them to toughen up a bit - the big wide world is no bed of roses... but teachers and parents will know when this kind of thing crosses a line. I knew a clever, ugly and weird kid (musical too) who had a great childhood with a huge circle of loyal and happy friends so it really mostly depends on your individual circumstances... so I hope your kid sticks to her interests and has a safe and productive time at school.

My personal bullying story is too horrific to tell here. I will say that my brother was teased mercilessly because of his violin and my clarinet was thrown down a stairwell but the root of the bullying was far more complicated than merely playing classical music. He gave up music as a result, I didn't - it didn't change anything.

I really wish you good luck for your daughter. Keep an eagle eye out for bullying.

It's so true to say that anything can be the cause of bullying, and it's sometimes surprising what isn't. My son was at his ballet lesson and the rather tough brother of one of the girls came up to him and said (imagine very gruff, Yorkshire voice), 'Hey, do you still go to dancing?' When my son said that he did the tough little boy, much to my surprise, said with a certain amount of admiration, 'Cool'. I don't think my son's ever been teased about the dancing. Maybe it's considered too weird to be worth considering!

My sister bullied me, so whatever the school envirnoment that doesn't mean your child will escape being bullied. It does really annoy me when teachers (and parents) say it's just children or it will make you tough. It doesn't make you tough, it mostly makes you unhappy and afraid.

I fit the first two descriptions you mentioned (I didn't play an instrument), but was never bullied. In my school when I was 14-17yrs old, I found that people tended to segregate according to their social groups, and didn't really bother that much with students that didn't have much in common. Oddly enough, the students who did well academically, and were also involved in extracurricular activities, were the popular ones.

I think there was some bullying or teasing in the school I was in when I was 12-13yrs old, but I think a lot of it had to do with the personality of the potential victim. If they were confident in who they were, there usually wasn't a problem. The people who were insecure, or apologetic about who they were or what they did, were the ones who would run into problems.

I agree with what all ears said about asking what you can do if it happens, but I would go further. Since the school is aware that bullying occurs, I would ask them what their policy is towards bullies, and how they handle such situations. They do, after all, have a responsibility to their students.

I hope everything goes well for you and your daughter!

I was bullied quite horrifically. Don't know if it was because I played an instrument or went to church, but what I do know is that even 3 years after having left school, the 'meaningless comments' that should have made me tougher still haunt me.

That said, you seem to proactive already and your daughter is very lucky to have you looking out for her.

Music was never an issue - most people at my schools (primary and secondary) played an instrument of some sort, some superbly well (not me) so being a musician didn't make you stand out or mark you as an easy target.

I was bullied up to the age of about 9 because I was considered an easy target: I was head and shoulders taller than anyone else, and blonde so I could be spotted from miles away; I was thin as a rake, rather weedy and never, ever retaliated when hit. I grew out of being weedy, after which the bullies moved on (eventually I grew out of being blonde and skinny as well, and I stopped growing at 14 so eventually most people caught up, at least to an extent).

Eleanor Roosevelt once said something with a bearing on this. It was something like "No-one can make you feel inferior without your permission".

When I was having a hard time at school, my mum wrote this on a post-it and stuck it on my desk so I saw it when I got home! (BTW, it's "without your consent" )

I think that generally any child can be taunted or picked on occasionally - I've never been picked on for being musical, I'm not religious so can't comment on that, but I'm academic and this was regularly a problem in my secondary school because, frankly, there were 3 of us in my year who bothered to try. I wouldn't say I was bullied though; I think bullying is continued nastiness calculated to upset the victim, which is rather different to the mindless comments like nerd / geek/ whatever. Interestingly, after the GCSE results, I bumped into loads of the kids who had spent five years complaining about my work ethic, and they were completely shocked by my results and one even said how proud they were! Needless to say, I went to a different school for sixth form!

Your daughter sounds like she knows who she is and I think it's really important that she has that sense of identity. Like others have said, if she is secure in herself she will be less of a target. I don't think it was massively helpful of the school to say that, but I guess you could use it to your advantage and if anything was to happen, you could point out that they already suspected she was "at risk" so why were they not keeping an eye on things? Most kids are fine in secondary school - I went to the roughest comp imaginable and it wasn't fun, by any stretch of the imagination, but I survived, my best friend is from that school (she worked hard too!) and looking back, I think it had a positive impact even if I didn't think it at the time.

I am a little concerned at the numbet of posts in which I get the impression that the existence of bullying in school is accepted as unavoidable, more or less normal - and even character building. Several people have posted that in the early years of secondary education they were bullied or teased for being academically able. I thought doing one's best at school was what education was about. However well children who are bullied manage to do they cannot possibly do as well as if they were not being bullied.

Bullies are the thieves of other children's education.

I am for teachers and parents taking a much firmer stand. I am also for taking the long term view. Great oaks from little acorns grow. If the classroom bully is not nipped in the bud what will he or she get away with later in life? Will they think it normal to terroize their workmates, their families, their neighbours?

Thank you all, very much, for sharing your experiences.
I think, on the whole, I'm glad now that the schools (Primary and Secondary) are aware of the possibility of bullying. I remember an excellent Public School Headmaster telling me once - never trust a school that says they don't have any problem with bullying or drugs - it means that the Senior Management either haven't got a clue, or are covering something up.

The school Daughter is going to is our catchment Comprehensive and events of the last few weeks mean now that she will be going without any good friends. Everyone is heading either to the Grammar, Independant School, or a 'leafy' Comp which is harder to get into than any Grammar if you live on the wrong side of town like us.

Catchment Comp is the most music friendly option I could find (the others didn't even offer Music GCSE.) The standard is just much lower, and the style much 'poppier' or 'rockier' on in some other way 'cooler' than Daughter on her fiddle. I suspect there must be other kids who learn to a higher standard but, worryingly, they must be keeping their heads down. Piano, since it lives at home, can stay as secret as she likes but the violin will have to come to school for lessons and ensembles. The only other violinist we know of has to use a school instrument because her parents won't let her risk her own violin at school (and on the way to and from).

Daughter would rather take her chances - apparently the school violins are made of lacquered cardboard and chicken wire.

Wow, I don't think I've ever agreed with something on this forum quite as much as I agree with this post, Aquarelle. Very well said!

I agree with Aquarelle and Celeste - quite apart from the kids who suffer, it's not doing the bullies any favours to let them believe that life=the Lawless Zone for several years, and to then expect them to leave school and adjust to living in a law-governed society which is currently pretty much against second chances.

Hmm, well I don't agree. People need to remember that bullying in primary and secondary school is normal, and common, and that it is other children that do it. Children who may in turn be bullied themselves. They aren't villifiable monsters; they are other children.

The children who made my life difficult are now nurses, hairdressers, builders, plumblers, teachers, solicitors etcetc. That is, normal people who grew out of being bullies. Every single one of us probably said or did something rotten to someone at school, that felt like bullying to that person. This doesn't make it condonable, but I think it is very wrong to villify the unknown "bully" who could easily be your own son or daughter. Bullying at its worst might be triggered by one person, but it involves every single child who ignores it, goes along with it, stands back and laughs, and otherwise condones it. Which is 90% of the children in school: Because they're always glad it isn't happening to them.

It isn't easy to overcome the psychological damage that prolonged bullying can cause, but it is also possible to learn better how to deal with people from it. That requires determination, strength, added to the ability to keep things in perspective and not cling to being a victim. A whole other challenge in itself.

I read recently that 23 percent of children bully another child at some point at school. I would suggest the figure is actually much higher - it's not going to be something that most people want to boast about - and some people use bullying behaviour without realising what it is. Hopefully then it's just a phase that most children grow out of - I'd be much more worried though if my child was as risk of being a bully than being on the receiving end of bullying.

School really isn't a good preparation for the real world anymore. Children are rewarded for poor behaviour and victimised for good. Work is always meant to 'excite and enthuse' and everybody has to be congratulated on mediocrity all the time.

The school my daughter is going to in September recently changed its uniform from shirt and tie to a polo shirt with logo "Because is more accurately reflects what they'll be wearing in the adult world." Presumably the logo they're thinking of is Poundland or McDonalds.

Or maybe we should just send our kids to school in pyjamas to better prepare them for an adult life on the dole.

Oh dear - I am feeling bitter today. Better go and get some work done myself - or else resign myself to a new 'uniform' of unemployment pjs.

I agree with the sentiment here entirely, having had my taste of bullying and seen much worse, but I think there is a distinction between "conflict" (which I feel is normal, unavoidable, and a good thing), and bullying (which is none of those things). The difference as far as I can see is that in a conflict, both parties are on equal ground, whereas bullying is one-sided and one party is left powerless to defend themselves. I think children should be left to resolve their own conflicts to an extent, but bullying should be stopped with the intervention of authority. There are some parents who are so anxious about their children that they intervene as soon as they see their children at all upset. One instance of this that I can't believe I still remember occurred when I was about 7 or so - one of my friends (who was 6, but somewhat immature for his age) and I got into an argument about something completely trivial as we were riding home from school. When his mother saw him upset and found out why, her method of soothing him was to insult my education and upbringing, and she continued to be rude to me long afterward (it wasn't just my imagination - even my mother noticed and commented)... not at all an appropriate response to the situation, and certainly not helpful to the child.

A friend of mine once strung a violin with sheep fence wire. She'd found it at the back of a cupboard and wondered what it sounded like. It was actually the first violin I borrowed to see if I got on with playing. With proper strings on it I hasten to add.

...but Tamsin, it's precisely because bullies aren't monsters that they shouldn't just be abandoned as "unmanageable".

I think that peope learn all kinds of things from being bullied, but trust and optimism aren't among those things.

And I'm afraid that a lot of bullies DON'T 'grow out of it' to become 'normal' adults...Bagpuss and I have both, in the past, been victims of the most dreadful bullying by adults who were our superiors at work - and I'm sure we're not alone!

Definitely not alone - some of you might remember the ridiculous behaviour I experienced from my colleagues in the shop I worked in on my gap year. I tried to hide the fact I was going to university - managed to keep up the pretence for 5 months - couldn't really hide the fact my racial heritage isn't entirely British, and it was glaringly obvious by the end that they were both racist and frankly stupid. I wonder how many other people they've picked on in the past: there's no way I'm the only person who worked in that shop on a part time/ gap year basis to fund further education!!

In the main, bullies have low self esteem. If a child feels good about himself, he doesn't need to bully. If your child is a bully, you have a lot more to worry about.

However, I am not condoning bullying in any way, just saying that bullying is a symptom of something deeper. Schools have a duty to help sort out bullying for the sake of both bully and victim. In reply to all ears, learning that not all people can be trusted is a very valuable life lesson. It does sound as if Japanese education leaves something to be desired on the behaviour front though!

I was lucky at school on the music front as the small group of high-achieving musicians in my year were all in my form group and became good friends of mine. One of these people was the only practicing Christian in my entire year (or at least the only one willing to admit it) and I think people thought she was a bit weird for that but I don't recall her ever getting any serious hassle over it. As for people being bright I was bullied very severely in primary school for this, but my secondary school was academically selective so there wasn't any real stigma around being bright - I did get a bit of hassle for being 'over-enthusiastic' but I had a good enough support network of friends who weren't bothered by that and pretty much every one of the people who did tease me in the early days wanted some homework help/tutoring at GCSE or A-level and then suddenly my being top of the class wasn't a problem anymore.


If the school has that sort of vision for their pupils I'd say that's a far bigger worry. I suggest getting a big leather (or faux leather - the crucial bit is shiny really) swivel chair and informing your daughter than people who get to sit in big swivel chairs at work don't wear polo shirts, and if she works hard she'll get a big swivel chair someday. This was actually a pep talk I got from a boss of my mum's when I was a kid - she let me sit in her big swivel chair and then told me if I worked hard at school then one day I'd have an even bigger swivel chair. All kids love swivelly chairs...well I did and while I don't remember every career-oriented lecture I had at school or from my parents I remember the massive leather swivel chair.

My husband's job involves sitting in many lovely chairs and he wears a polo shirt, or worse, whenever possible. If he joins a new company with a fancy dress code he makes it his mission to get it changed. If he's meeting a client he wears a suit. Otherwise he can do his job just as well in comfortable clothes. Some people choose to wear a suit anyway. It's a myth that people geting well paid will always have to dress smartly. Plenty of countries manage to produce a well educated population without any kind of school uniform. I've always wondered what it is about that British that we perceive a school as better the more oddly and uncomfortably it dresses its pupils (anyone seen what the pre-prep at Harrogate Ladies college wear? Picture the colour coral in both and shorts and blazers for the boys. It would be hilarious if it were not so sad).

I don't think bullying has to be the result of deep seated problems. Some children (and adults) just enjoy being unkind. Some don't realise what hurt they're causing but some most certainly do. But even if it is the result of another problem that doesn't excuse it in any way. We all have problems but we're not all bullies. The bullies know what they're doing is unacceptable.

I agree too! I don't think bullying should be tolerated in school and every school should have an anti-bullying policy that is adhered to.

I don't think unkind things said in some form of jest are character building for the victim. Lack of correction encourages the bully.

I've met two bullies in the workplace one in a school(management) and one in business. Perhaps if they had been dealt with at an early age they may have been able to develop a better management style as adults. It was certainly character building in both their cases




I suppose if Emsoboe was asked if she had bullied someone recently then she would say yes. She was very strong with someone and forced them to tell who had run off with another girls belongings. I would be very surprised if 23% of children are bullies in the real sense.

Well said Aquarelle!

Maybe I'll be able to find a little room in my heart for the plight of the bully once schools are more effectively stamping out the bullying and properly looking after the bullied.

Bullying is the way kids and adults attempt to set out a pecking order, but that doesn't mean it's right or normal. However it's a mistake to assume that certain characteristics make it more likely - faith can just as easily be a cause of bullying because someone is perceived to have the "wrong" one within a faith school (and I have to say, I find the whole concept of such establishments deeply disturbing and divisive) as for another to be religious within a more neutral setting. What is so hard to get across is that bullies will seek out characters which are bullyable, and then use whatever excuse comes to hand to provide leverage for bullying. .

I got teased because I'm clever, because I read a lot, because I'm half German and chose not to hide my bilinguality, because I was athletic, and loathed make-up and the culture of Beauty. I was not teased for being musical, or for being an atheist, or for being bad at art - I guess they had enough ammunition - but really the reason they decided to have a go at me was because I was odd, I didn't fit in well enough to their stereotypes. Bullying is evil, it does destroy self-esteem, but there are ways round it, and I think that there really need to be two facets to dealing with it: yes, schools, parents and workplaces all need to show that it is not acceptable behaviour. In addition, those prone to it need to learn how they can deal with it, or it will blight their lives for them. The reason for that is that there is nobody easier to bully than someone who responds in particular ways - indeed, sometimes it's almost impossible to avoid it. Someone close to me, who was bullied incessantly for eighteen years by a boss, has been reduced in some settings to an inert individual who cannot take any sort of initiative for fear of getting it wrong, even though that boss has long since retired, and more or less can't be got to achieve anything without the sort of push which gets dangerously close to bullying behaviour - eighteen years rooted negative responses in that person, who now can't learn other ways to behave too.

The comment about it being surprising sometimes what kids don't get bullied for is also very true - my ballet dancing son never got picked on for doing so, my beautiful and glamorous daughter got picked on because she had had the good taste to buy the same shirt as a (of course not quite as...) beautiful and glamorous bully in the class. It does require not showing upset or fear when things are going wrong, but that is easier said than done. The bullying of anacrusis stopped when she rounded on her bullies, though she did also get a lucky break when she won a jar of sweets in a class charity fundraiser and shared them out.

I think perhaps I didn't express my point as strongly as I needed to. I firmly believe every single child bullies or condones bullying at some point in their school career. Pretending that there are just one or two vicious and malevolent brats involved is naive in the extreme; they might be at the heart of the worst problems, but with bullying, every other child who is a witness is involved and also responsible. Bullies can only bully if the group of children allows them to. Being bullied is horrible because of the isolation: If it was just one person, it would be more bearable.

Therefore, the majority of bullies (i.e. the majority of children) do grow up and out of it, without any intervention from teachers or parents (who basically don't know enough about what is going on to appreciate the subtley of childrens' interactions). They learn to break out of the "sheep" mentally, and while very few ever learn to be willing to defend others, they do learn to walk away and not gang up on people. Obviously some people will remain malevolent and bullying adults; but if you experienced and coped with bullying as a child, you are better equiped to recognise and deal with these people assertively in the adult world. If you can learn what triggered attacks, and what defuses them, and can let go of being a victim, then you can use these skills to stop such people, rather than allowing them to take you back to being a child again.

Pretending that bullying is just due to a couple of particularly unpleasant people, who if left unchecked will inevitably grow up into "bad ones", I cannot not accept. In my view, it does not acknowledge the complexity of childrens' lives.

I agree that most children probably do something which could be considered bullying when they were children. I certainly did. And I was punished for it, quite rightly. But there were other people who always exhibited bullying behaviour and didn't learn. I suppose they are very likely to be the people who go on to be workplace bullies and to bully their children. Perhaps if bullies were consistently punished, whether they do it once or repeatedly, they might learn to moderate their behaviour. The person being bullied should not be made to feel that they've done something wrong by being quiet, shy, odd or anything else. Those are the people we want and they shouldn't have to pretend to be something else in order not to be bullied.

I have an (ex) friend who exhibited a very subtle and insidious form of bullying by constantly undermining other people, but in, if it makes any sense, the nicest possible way. She would twist the conversation in order to demonstrate how much cleverer her children were than other people's, as well as telling downright lies to make you feel like a failure.

As I said previously I have worked with two very different adult bullies. One of them was a typical school bully, needing others to manipulate and for support to extend the suffering of their victims. From their position of power they bullied everyone. It was an enjoyable game to them, they weren't the type of person you would label bully on meeting them, but it was there beneath the surface.

The second had anger management issues their bullying was probably less to do with personal gratification and more a lack of understanding of personal relationships. This guy was just angry with the world. looking back I realise now why I was kept out of the office at interview. He had a wild look about him that would have set warning bells ringing.

What they both had in common was the complete lack of a trigger. There was no way you could avoid being a victim. Everyone they worked with were victims in one way or another. I could not have worked with either for any length of time. I don't play the victim well.

Anacrusis I really feel for your friend and wonder how they put up with an opressive workplace for that length of time.

I don't think it follows that because most children participate in bullying at some point, bullying isn't a problem that sometimes needs intervention. That's like saying that because most adults drink alcohol, alcoholism isn't a problem. There are degrees to everything.