I have a 7 year old student that is perfectly able to play the piano but, according to his granny, would rather play Club Penguin and Moshi Monsters on the computer, so she pays him a QUID each time he practices. A seven year old being paid to play the piano!

He hadn't made any progress with his piece this week, so I said to the granny that she should take her pound back as it wasn't money well spent. I do think this system is going to end up costing her a fortune, as well as giving him completely the wrong message. I suppose it's not my place to say anything about it but it does make me rather mad!

If anything is guaranteed to sew into this child's mind that 'piano practice = chore', then this is...

If my son had been paid a pound every time he practised from the age of eight until now he'd have a few thousand pounds to his name. It seems like a silly idea to me. My mother pays my sons money for getting good marks in school exams, and I don't agree with that either.

Well, even if it's a bit misguided, at least someone's supporting the idea of practice!

Etched into my mind forever is the day (back in the day when I worked every hour God sent for a music service in a rather down at heel area) when a child opened her violin case to reveal a little pile of coins clanking around with the fiddle...

'What's all this money doing in here? You going shopping later?', I quipped.

'Nah - Dad gave me that to make me stop practising. He told me to shut up with that bl***y racket while he was trying to watch TV'

At that point, I really understood that my world & priorities were not the same as my pupils'!

I am not sure if it is my place to say anything as it is commenting on parenting skills and that isn't really part of my remit. Obviously this kind of plan has no useful purpose in the long-term as bribery only works for a limited period of time.

I don?t think it is a teacher?s place to comment on parenting matters in general, but when it impacts on learning the instrument, then surely there is a case for saying something, albeit tactfully and respectfully. Granny needs to understand that practice is something that brings it?s own rewards - the child sees the improvement they have made. If she really insists on this way forward, at least set some tangible goals rather than just ?has done some practice? or ?practised for 15 minutes today? - give the kid the pound if he manages to play the first phrase of his piece without mistakes 3 times in a row, for instance.
I suppose payment for practice might start him off with some good habits, but at some point the payment has to be withdrawn. Not a sensible scheme, really - a sticker chart is so much better - kids love stickers, and they are cheap, easy and attractive.

I think this hits the nail on the head - eventually it fails to work, and then you are further down the road with no decent practising approach in place.

I am seeing something very similar (I think) with one of mine, who delighted in telling me all through last term that he'd been promised a computer game if he scored a distinction in his grade 2 (March 11).

I had uneasy feelings about this - although it's probably pretty common, I suppose - because it was clearly becoming the main objective, and I didn't really expect that kind of mark anyway.

In the event he scored a high pass - and was visibly disappointed. And we have achieved very little since - in fact I feel I'm struggling a bit to get him back on track.

Completely the wrong message, and I think the OP's comment about asking for the money back was spot on!

And can't she just stop the child playing on the computer? Say 'no'? Or am i completely old fashioned?!

*Rapturous Applause*

I like the sticker chart idea - and if Granny wants to provide an added incentive she could offer a treat or outing as a reward for a given number of stickers earned. Maybe you could make a chart yourself and stick it in the back of his practice journal - then you're not saying what the family are doing is wrong - just offering an alternative? And you should be the one to give the stickers (when you see evidence of real practice). Kids have a wonderful way of bamboozling nonmusical parents and grandparents into thinking that 10 minutes of random notes and a clatter through a couple of last term's old chestnuts qualifies as practice.

As for people who offer large rewards for high grades .... squared.

I loathe the 'no prizes for second place' mentality. Daughter has a friend whose parents give her ?25 for a distinction, ?10 for a merit and nothing at all for a pass! Child messed up in her exam last term (she'd worked hard but she got flustered on the day) and teacher was delighted at the end of it when she got 107. Parents haven't even been in to collect the certificate.

I'm afraid I'm with old fashioned Banjogirl about the computer though - I used to have a rule that gadgets don't go on in my house until practice and homework is done. I found it led to skimping sometimes so now both kids just have a certain amount of 'gadget time' in the week - and when it's gone it's gone. I must be a very scary mother because it wouldn't occur to either of my children that they had any choice but to practice when I tell them to.

I suppose my very old fashioned and unfashionable view is that children shouldn't need to be bribed to practise at all. All the books on practising say quite clearly that rewarding practise through money or presents gives completely the wrong message.

He already has a sticker chart - 10 stickers for a little prize from the treasure box. For most students, that is enough! I made a point of not giving him a sticker yesterday. I also feel like a complete MUG for having given him a medal at our recent Summer Concert for daily practice as if I'd known it was bribery-based practice, then I'd not have been so keen on rewarding that.

Granny doesn't live with them, she is around the corner, so she can't really supervise everything that goes on at home. It is a tough one as the gran is quite musical, so she is best placed to help out with the practice, but I think the parents don't really supervise him much and fob off a lot of the educational duties to granny. I would like to suggest that the computer is only offered as an option once the homework and piano practice is done, but again, it just doesn't feel like my place to get involved with planning his schedule.

I am probably not well placed to be commenting on the parenting issues as earlier today I just bribed my toddler with a sweetie to use the toilet!

Well as I rule with a rod of iron I don't need to bribe yet but I am not against it in principal, after all that's how adults survive on a daily basis by working for their money.

If we can afford to, I intend to put aside all scholarship money for my kids - assuming they keep up their end of the bargain - as it is their talent and continual hard work that has gained them the scholarship.

I haven't bribed my boys but at times I will say to them that I acknowledge the effort they are putting in and I will get them an X when they finish their exams but I always say the present is for the effort not the result so if they refuse to practice one evening then it's going to take them longer to get that present. Seems to work and I am skint! One example is that I am sending geek boy off to France for three weeks which is quite a big deal for a 12 year old. He hasn't complained (he's logical enough to know it will be good for him) but it does require him to be brave so after he agreed to go I said I would buy him an iPod for being so grown up. I didn't tell him before about the iPod though. Baboon boy, on the other hand, would ak me what he's getting for going!

quite simple. Who gives the child access to Club Penguin and Moshi Monsters? Surely at age 7 a parent can control the off button on a PC ... or they are storing up big problems down the line.

Practise does not equal money it equates to time on favourite activity which has to be earnt.

No practise no Computer time and stick to it with grounding so there is no chance that "little brat" "darling child" has any chance to access it elsewhere.

A couple of days cold-turkey will work.

It is amazing how even parent that recognise how important music is in their children's lives do not realise that computer games need to be rationed and controlled. They will do it with TV, but not IT. It is causing untold damage with our children. All that is needed is control of the off button.

No wonder parenting classes are popular, and as a mother who has been on a couple of these courses, the need is obviously very great.

Little brat - heh heh!

It would seem quite reasonable that the parents turn the computer off until he has done all the required bits and pieces for the day. Maybe I should suggest a strategy where he practises in the morning as this is usually the most productive time of the day for kids his age. Hopefully they don't let him go on the computer in the morning - but you never know!

I've always been a bit more 'stick than 'carrot'. It sounds bad but my premise is that:

a - if you're going to do something than you might as do it quite well (not 100%, max, out of this world but at least passably 'well'),

b - if you sign up for piano at the start of the year then you're committed for the whole year,

hence, c - you should play the piano 'well' (at least for that year) and that involves practising.

Spontaneous treats for good results/whatever seems a nice thing but I hate actual reward charts/bribery or anything along that line (and, no, toddlers don't count - they're a whole separate rule-set, a lot of which depends on your level of sleep and sanity at the time!).

And, Lorraine, I wouldn't hold back from giving Granny your point of view - you're not telling her (or the parents) how to parent, this is a musical issue, not life in general, and you're only giving your opinion, they're not obliged to follow it.

Is it possible that these two facts are related? Parents and grandparents can be highly motivated by the possibility of their little darlings winning a prize in public. In these days of 'Celebration Assemblies', 'Target Assemblies', 'Star of the Week,' and 'Headteacher's/Deputy Headteacher's Awards' kids are much less bothered. Have a 'Hard Work' or 'Good Effort' medal instead - if you must. Not a big 'medal' fan myself.

I used to pay our eight year old son one Belgian franc per minute to practise clarinet. It wasn't a fortune, but it got him practising for 20 - 30 minutes daily in the early stages. This was thirty years ago! After a year or so he was making good progress and was enjoying it, and said he didn't need to be paid any more. At 15 he achieved a distinction at grade 8, thoroughly enjoyed playing in the school orchestra, and is still playing thirty years on. I think it gave him the initial impetus to get to a stage where he really enjoyed it. It depends on the child, I think.

My kids LOVE winning medals and trophies - they are definitely the best motivation tool that I have come across in all my years of teaching. I also remember the sense of pride at being presented a massive shield by my piano teacher when I was in my final year of school.

The bribery system has been going on for quite a while it transpires, at least before he got the medal, although he just sat his theory exam, so we haven't done an awful lot of piano playing in the last term other than preparing a piano trio for the Summer concert. Perhaps the lack of playing lately has been the problem trying to get him back into the swing of things.

I think I will have a word at the next lesson and just mention how it will make things worse in the long run.

Just ensure that they don't know the password to log onto the computer and you don't even need to control the on/off button.

No doubt this is what the grandma hopes will happen. Different families have different strategies for making practice happen and, so long as the practice is effective (and perhaps it isn't here?), I don't think the music teacher should interfere.

I also am "guilty" of having offered small monetary bribes when my daughter was small. It seems so long ago now that I can't quite remember how our system worked, but I do know that usually I forgot to pay her, and she usually forgot to pursue her claim to payment! There's probably a double parenting sin there somewhere. I just looked on this as a way for her to earn a small amount of pocket money to spend/save as she wished in much the same way as (I understand) some children only get pocket money if they've done their chores - and it's unrealistic to think that music practice isn't a chore for many 7 year olds.

Like undine's son, it looks like daughter will be taking grade 8 clarinet at 15 and she is still busy doing lots of other music, so hopefully is not scarred for life...

What's a pound here or there? Felicity's mother promised her a car for taking part in the Christmas concert

*Edit - posted the links here but am moving them as they may lead to off topic-ness*

I have stickers that I put into my violin learning journal. I found that it was so easy to focus on what I was doing "wrong" that I rarely celebrated, or even acknowledged what I did right. So now when I'm writing up a lesson or a practice, I give myself a sticker to mark the good points. I guess that sounds a bit childish, but flicking through the book seeing the smiley stickers really cheers me up.

Friends with kids tell me that sticker schemes are popular in their schools. Maybe the key to any incentive based scheme, money, stickers, IT time is to work out what to reward? From reading around the subject - acknowledging effort (you worked hard) leads to a much higher level of achievement than praising achievement (you did well). Hmm - maybe I need to change my stickering regime.

I don't think this is helping the OP much - but it's an area I find interesting.

Oh and I totally agree with the posters who think the parents should control the IT/TV access, but then I don't have kids so it's easy for me to say. Despite that I do think that not giving a child boundaries does it no favours in the long term. Shall I get off my soap box now?

To OP - I hope you can get the gran on side.

Much better to reward practice time with computer time instead of cash.

I do pay my child to practice it's called buying music and paying for lessons I'm a seriously cruel parent as no practice would mean no lesson.

If he won the 'daily practice' medal at a pound a practice that's ?365 a year - by the time he's 17 he can buy his own car!
What would a 7 year old boy spend ?7 a week on anyway?

Before I had the kids I worked in a training environment. It was easy money for a long time and the training for 16 to 18 year olds had become chaotic. The funding changed and the trainees had to actually achieve an NVQ or there would be no payment for the provider.

I was very new to dealing with the tests, the age group and the organisation. No-one knew where they were up to. I ruled a chart of all the tests and each time one was completed I put a sticker on (it was only a dot). I didn't trust them not to pen in the tests themselves but the stickers were kept under lock and key. You have never seen such a change round in behaviour. Stickers can work!

Paying Children to Practice??

Silly idea.

Why?

Edit: I'm just curious to know why everyone thinks that one kind of manipulation is fine but another is beyond the pale..

If he's paid, I guess that makes him a professional!

What a good point! I am going to mention this to him and say that he better make each lesson a performance as he's earning cash for it!!!

Good idea. Why not Black list the gaming sites.

I have to say it's not what I have ever done but if a bribe is needed.......... The child is only seven and gran probably doesn't feel in a position to say no if the behaviour is accepted by the parents. Personally I'd say no.

My children are given their pocket money on a daily basis according to whether they have displayed the required behaviours. This is no different from what my employer does. The required behaviours are not the same for both children (apart from being kind to other children and doing their practice). However, as each behavioural trait is only worth 5p per day it's not big time manipulation... it just reinforces the point when they see ticks or crosses on the weekly planner.

Speaking of which, it's practice time now.

Oh and sometimes I give unexpected bonuses for exceptional niceness or achievement beyond what I'd expected.

I did rather regret how I dealt with my son asking if he'd get a reward for doing well in his grade 1 piano. Having gone through the "I'm certain you'll pass well, I'll be delighted if you get a merit and you may well get a treat" in a non-committal, you're working hard and I'm proud of your achievements to date so generally I'll say well done kind of a way, he then said "What if I get a distinction?" and I was caught off guard and said "good grief, if you get a distinction I'll throw a party" sarcastically. When I went to pick him up from his lesson the following week his friend's mum (and teacher's wife) said "what's this your son tells me about you having promised him a party????" I had to explain that I was joking but did say that an ice cream after school on the day of the exam was definitely forthcoming. OTOH my grownup friend who was taking G5 violin thought it was a great idea and could she come in on the deal if she passed...

Motivation, showing that you value what they do, bribery, blackmail - we all use them to varying degrees at varying times. Until you've brought up a "non-standard" child, you just don't know what you'll need to do!

I suspect there's no such thing as a "standard" child.

I think my problem with this arrangement is that the child is being paid to do something that they want to do and which, as notmusimum has pointed out, the parents are already paying for him to do. Seven is quite old enough to understand that if he wants the lessons, he has to do the practice. Granny bribing makes it look a lot like something she wants him to do - and he's not too keen on.

I know I'm dwelling on this a bit but - ?7 !!! At 7 !!! I've promised my 11 year old ?2 a week when she starts secondary school - and that's in return for stuff I want her to do like sorting laundry and helping in the garden not essentials like homework or hobbies like music or dancing. I certainly wouldn't want my 7 year having even that much money to spend for himself - and I'm assuming parent that don't control computer time or music practice don't have a lot of say in how Junior spends his cash either.

I bet this woman just thinks she doing a nice thing and 'supporting' her Grandchild. She won't know that her parenting skills have now come under scrutiny on the world wide web and that what may have seemed like a couple of quid here and there have become 'manipulation'.

Ok, so the child should want to practice. What child doesn't go through a phase where they want to explore other things? When I was older than this child, my mum had to sit with me every day to make me practice my scales - it didn't do either of us any harm. I was also given a present when I finished my school exams; I just saw it as recognition of my parents being proud of my achievements and effort, not anything sinister!

I give my children ?1 a week if they have done certain things.

These include but are not exclusively a reasonable amount of practice without making a fuss about it, and trying their best in their lessons. It's an amount I've decided they can have each week as a method of teaching them about saving for things they want. If I can also use this to encourage good habits then why not?

With regards to the OP:

I don't think the Gran "paying" her grandchild is such a big deal. It's not what I'd do nor do I personally think it's a great idea but only in the "rod for her own back" way ...

We all as parents "manipulate" our children into exhibiting a certain type of behaviour and anyone who says they don't is frankly fibbing - what are star charts, stickers, etc or punishments like time out/ grounding/ refusing access to computer, etc.. the list goes on .... if not a means of "manipulation" or encouraging good behaviours. ... How we do it is a personal thing.

Maybe this gran would be giving said child this money anyway each week and this way she's encouraging good practice habits and a sense of money having to be earned ...

just my 2p for what it's worth.

completely.

thanks Was half expecting to be shouted down...

This is as far as I've read in this thread and it's far enough. I agree whole-heartedly.

Motivate to love music and to want to perform it. Give confidence. Nurture the idea that what comes out is proportional to what goes in. Provide goals. Make it fun. Help construct a routine. ENJOY. LISTEN. But PAY for TIME spent??? Absolutely not.

Edit - I came back because I felt I had to say more. I used to cajole, a long time ago, as teacher and parent, but don't any more. I am passionate about what I teach, and my attitude is, "There are few things in life that will give more pleasure or more satisfaction. What you get out is directly proportional to what you put in. Nothing that is good in life comes for free. You are doing this for you and for nobody else, and nobody can do it for you. " If this gets them through the early stages then there is no problem, as they get the idea, and things move on very quickly. I have a large number of Grade 7. 8 and diploma students now whom I've had since they started at the age of 6. I truly believe that the right attitude from the word 'GO' is what counts - it's not TIME SPENT for gain from another source; it's time INVESTED for one's OWN sake. Getting the parents on board helps but getting the right attitude into kids themselves is what really counts - because they take that attitude home.

It's not as if he's getting ?3.70 per hour of practise - it's the odd pound from a doting Granny! I really don't understand this at all... I bet she'd be totally mortified if she knew this discussion was going on.

It can be difficult for a child to be motivated unless they have reached a certain standard first which makes the learning feel less difficult. Both sons would have never practiced if I had not insisted. DS1 is still not interested but is compliant so will practice when told. DS2 would rather not but he is beginning to realise the pleasure he gets from succeeding, either through small achievements or in competitions/auditions. He can't wait to go to the RCM but would still not practice as he cannot see five feet in front of him. There have been moments recently when I have been woken at 6:30 am to hear piano practice. He really beams when I tell him how proud I am that he did this of his own volition but on the whole it is a constant negotiation! I also know he finds comfort when playing, especially the piano and he comes away from practice with a spring in his step, or at times he will "compose" when he is feeling sad or attacked. But he doesn't realise he does this and by "making or bribing" him to practice he will eventually get good enough to really love music.

Given that the average 7 year old would only be practising for 15 to 20 minutes at a time he does get ?3.70 an hour!

For many years I have struggled against other people pre-conceptions about children who learn instruments to a reasonable standard - that they all come from middle class families and monied families.
I surrender. It's obviously all true.

?30 a month for a 7 year old is an incredible amount of money! Does no-one else see it?

Please .... someone ....

This is true, and I think this is why it's good for a teacher to be quite strict about practice. No practice = no lessons any more. Few will just take the attitude, "Ok, then, I'll just give up now" in the first couple of terms. A strict teacher works best for the early stages, who is very specific about how much time should be spent, and exactly HOW that time should be spent - combining this, obviously, with enthusiasm and encouragement. The hope is that the child just views practice in the same way as times tables, homework and reading, It's just part of the routine that isn't negotiable, and when this is the case there are fewer arguments at home. Once these early stages are past, the self motivation should be already established, and it becomes more than a chore. I honestly think paying them could be counter-productive, in that they might always feel that they're doing somebody else a service rather than doing it for themselves. I love playing the organ, but I wouldn't do it for free... because that's the attitude that is instilled in me.

Choristers have always been paid for their services but that seems acceptable. Nowadays it is often in the form of scholarships but there are many small churches that still pay a small fee for each service. I'm not advocating the payment of practice but I do think bribery happens often either through money, sweets, computer time etc.

What a fab thread. I do not believe in bribing children with money --- with any thing. They do not want to play the instrument then? So what is the point?

However, what a fab idea! I think teachers should pay the student to practice! (this means i am only joking ). I could be be on to earning a lot of money.

Yes, I am in total agreement with you. I ask my students to incorporate their piano practice into their daily routine so at this rate, he's capable of "earning" ?7 a week for what my other students do for free! Maybe he's just an enterprising little fella!

I would, of course, rather that he just plays the piano for the love of it, not for the cash or rewards with the computer, but maybe some kids at this age don't quite have the same passion that a slightly older child might have after a few years of playing. I would like to think the payment scheme is only a short-term plan although the student may say otherwise about that now that he associates practice with ?????s.

Eitherway, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth that he gets paid to practice. I just can't get on with this concept.

They are providing a service for others, that is valued by others, using the fruits of the practice that has already been done, so I do think this is very different.

Children should be taught that their lessons have to be paid for, and should be encouraged to value that in itself, and to make the most of the opportunity. I make it as clear as I possibly can, as a teacher, that lessons depend on practice, and that even if I was earning ?100 per hour this would not change, because it is leading people up the garden path to allow them to think that they will get anywhere without practice. I make no difference between children and adults.

I have only been "guilty" of this once, and generally I agree that payment for practise etc. is not a great idea, but on this occasion it worked for us.
Daughter was very reluctant to learn clarinet scales for very fast approaching exam, otherwise she's always keen to play and practise. So, knowing that there was something that she was saving up for, birthday money etc, I gave her the challenge that if she managed to put some effort in and learn the scales off by heart within a certain time (can't remember what it was but it was quite a challenge!) I would add to her fund. It wasn't a huge amount, but it was incentive enough to make her go for it, and scales were learned to the tune of 20/21 in the exam. Result!

If the problem is too much time on a computer and potential obsession with Club Penguin and Moshi Monsters rather than time spent doing Piano Practice and playing outside and riding bicycles and interacting with other people then the solution is not to turn the computer on and to engage with the child.

Incentives that include interraction eg. going to the park, having a friend round to play in the garden anything except playing with electronics are a good thing.

The grandmother should invest time not money, but this is much harder.

I've been there with these electronic distractions and it is a difficult battle. However I haven't resorted to bribing the kids...yet!

I think that the granny does more than the fair share of her duties. After all, it is not her child, so anything she does to give the parents a helping hand. I know that she is not approving of the amount of time spent on the computer and as she doesn't live with them, she probably finds it difficult to enforce reduced hours on Club Penguin. So I understand where the bribery comes from as she is just desperate to lure him away from the computer and onto the piano instead, but probably doesn't have enough support from his parents to enforce the law!