Don't try and talk me out of it as I've made up my mind and it is more economical than the ?60 per month in the long run for a bassoon that does not do the job. So here is my list and I need advice on what brands to avoid and models that would be suitable:

Requirements:

Crook lock key
As many trill keys as possible
High E and D key
The more keys the better
The more rollers the better
As slim a bassoon as possible.

Budget is up to ?10k but I really would prefer to spend ?6k but as long as it could take him all the way up to and including conservatory level, should he end up going down that route.

A few thoughts: It depends if you're buying new or second hand but I think you should be able to find one within your budget which is suitable. You do need to go and try them out and make sure they comfortable to play - the design of the keywork feels different between different models. Spend some time in Howarth's trying out different models - try the Adler, Schrieber, Fox and see what they have on their 2nd hand list - available and what's in their workshop. It could be worth waiting for a good second hand one with a good tone. If you ring them up in advance they will get some out for you and you can take your time playing them, seeing what they sound like, what the keywork feels like etc. I did this a couple of years ago and went with my teacher at the time who was looking for a instrument for one of her pupils.

You can take one away for a 7 day trial for a small fee - that's the only way to decide whether you/DS really likes it and is comfortable with it. Although it's only really worth doing this if you think you have found an instrument you are fairly sure will be appropriate.

In my experience extra trill keys are not always necessary - there are always alternatives. Depending on context of the trill, can depend on what trill fingering you use. As far as your request for a 'slim' instrument, I don't think you will find much difference between them. Finding an instrument with crook lock, high D/E keys shouldn't be a problem - certainly not with new instruments.

You might need to think of what kind of case you want too - back packs are much easier for transportation than the traditional 'suit case' style. New instruments might come with a more easy to carry case but an older one might not but then it depends what price you might be paying in the end.

Good luck shopping ... and have fun!

My bassoon cost ?500 second-hand in about 1975, and it's lasted me ever since. But I wish I had ?10k to spend on an instrument now :-(

Seriously though, try as many instruments as you can, get a teacher you trust to help. In fact it may be a good idea to wait until he starts at RCM, his new teacher may well know of good instruments for sale.

Chris
Chris

I know nothing about Bassoons but I would strongly reccomend you talk to Stuart or Howard at Howarths..both Bassoonists and you should hear Stuart play..sensational.

Give Howarths a call on 0207 935 2407, they are very helpful and well respected they won't send you up a creek or leave you (or your son) without a paddle..

Andrew

It might be worth hanging on a little until he starts at RCM. His teacher there may have some strong opinions and/or contacts to help you get a better instrument.

I am taking everything on board and will not be hasty. The reason we want to buy one now is that if we try and correct his technique on a bassoon that is limiting then when he gets another one he'll have to do it all over again.

I have found this website and noticed that they have some offers but I'm not sure if the bassoon below - Fox 240 is the same as Fox 240D. The price range is considerable compared to Howarths.

http://www.wwbw.com/Fox-Renard-Model-240-B...6-i1143158.wwbw

Howarths - http://www.howarth.uk.com/pic.aspx?pic=./wo/48. fox.jpg&pid=34985

And could someone explain what the difference is between a right and left whisper key lock and what they are and if the options below are necessary and what they do:

German Bell (White Bell Ring)
Cork Tenons
Right Hand Whisper Key Lock
C(sharp) Trill Key Guard
Bassoon Palm Guard
Plateau Key, Left Hand Third Finger
Balance Hanger

All of this talk of ?10k makes me glad I play the clarinet

I think the cork tenons refers to the joints having cork on them. A balance hanger is a strip of metal with holes in it that you attach to where the sling hook loop is, and sticks out towards the top of the instrument. You then hook the sling to one of the holes, so that the bassoon is hung in a more balanced way, so it puts less pressure and weight on the hands. The bell ring is just the bit at the top, the white/yellow plastic circle.

Is the whisper key another name for crook key? Palm guard may refer to the bird shaped hand rest or is there a bit of metal protecting some of the pads to stop you accidentally pressing them with your palm?? I'm guessing on those.

I bought an Adler 1357 which is about ?5000 new. I was assured that is would see her past grade 8 and beyond. I can't remember why I homed in on that one, but it seemed to have top D key, crook lock, etc. and I liked the sound of it from what I had read. I then spoke to various people who assured me it would keep her going a while.

German bell - just means the white ring round the top of the instrument. Fox bassoons don't have this - they are brown/red matching the rest of the instrument. It sounds as if you can get one with a white bell ring as an option. You'd probably be talking a special order for that!

The keys/guards/key locks are extras which you can have fitted if they are needed. I think you would have to look at some of the standard Fox models and see if you need any additional bits. I wouldn't have thought that any of these would be crucial at this stage.

Balance hanger is an attachment for distributing the weight of the instrument if you are using a sling. You can see what one looks like on the Howarths website under accessories. I've never had one of these but I haven't used a sling since I was at school.

Models 240 and 240D probably are not much different to each other but I don't know enough about the Fox instruments to say. May just be some additional keys on the D model.


Louise

I believe 'whisper keys' are the US terminology for the speaker keys - the ones played by left hand thumb to get the tenor register A, B C above the break to speak clearly.

I wouldn't worry too much, he's got plenty of time - I didn't even start playing the bassoon until
I was 12. He should get a good teacher at RCM, and I really would wait until he's started before worrying about buying an instrument.

Chris

If he is going to study the instrument seriously then I think you are right to buy him a good instrument as soon as possible. However, as others have said, I think you should wait until you can speak to his new teacher at RCM before investing a large amount of money, essentially 'blind' - who knows what instruments the RCM may have access to, and they will be much better placed to advise you, having worked with your son, than anyone on here, however well qualified/experienced etc.

I think you might be overstating the case there.

I don't know. Who are these people and where are they? That's not a UK phone number. How is their after sales service?

I'm not a bassoonist. The only ones I know the answer to are
German Bell - most bassoons have a white faux ivory bell ring. A lot of Foxes I've seen have French bell (a metal ring). Some say it gives a better tone. I wouldn't know.
Palm guard - pretty standard, stops you fouling the vents with your hand.
Balance hanger - as someone else said it allows you to adjust where the harness is attached. You can have one fitted to any bassoon.

Note the Fox 240D is a short bore model which apparently makes it more suitable for solo work than orchestras. I've no idea how much difference it makes.

I have seen a good number of Foxes being played by advanced students so I've no doubt they are good.

I agree with Andrew. Don't rush into it. Go to Howarths. Ask about them. Find out what these various bits are and how much they are required. Try as many as possible - new and secondhand. This is a big investment (unless of course to you ?10k is small change). Take your time. DO NOT buy something of this value without knowing about it, touching it, playing it.

US outfit. I get their catalogue for some reason. Fine if you're on this side of the pond but I'd also recommend sticking to a UK supplier for after sales service.