I would say that the most progress BB has ever made has always been following an orchestral course. He has only done two this year - one three days long and from that was managing grade 5 rep in a couple of weeks, and another six days long with another huge leap including Purcell success. I wish there were more opportunities for younger players and players well below grade 5 to have more orchestral opportunities because it seems to do wonders for their musicianship.

I think that this is a bit unfair. In our area there are few, if any, opportunities for my DS to play with others in any sort of group. The only opportunity he has had so far is in the school 'orchestra' which mostly consists of beginner recorder and string players, plus a flute (G2), Clarinet (G3), Violin (failed G1) and a Cello (G2). He was invited to join the Trust Orchestra, but as most of the players are about 4 years older, we (and his teacher) didn't think he'd really enjoy it. Hence our application to the NCO.

Or experience has been the same TDM. Orchestral playing is more about time keeping and sight-reading and only one of these is examined. My son may be a relatively high grade but he is probably a weak orchestral player.

And my daughter is a very strong and experienced ensemble player but nowhere was it tested at the audition nor was any experience listable on the application forms so there is no way the auditionees would know that. So what I'm trying to say that not having this experience does not lessen your chances of entry into NCO and vice versa.

Who are you calling TDM?!!!




I heard that the NCO were fully aware of the limited opportunities for young players and that it didn't affect who they selected.

I'm surprised NCO don't ask about ensemble experience as everything my daughter has auditioned for has. Obviously she hasn't auditioned for NCO.

I sort of agree in a way with Kixmusic that some players do develop their own skills at the expense of ensemble playing. I think it is possible to do both at the same time. We will be forever grateful to out Music Service for all the opportunites they have given to daughter, She has been playing a solo in one of their concerts tonight and they have bought a piece of music for her to play with concert band as a soloist. These skills are invaluable in my opinion.

Most of the parents with children applying to NCO are in the fortunate position of having time on thier side to develop all aspects of playing.

You mean because they are still young they have plenty of opportunities ahead of them? Yes I agree.

Yes! That's exactly what I meant Those of us with children applying or a year away from applying for Conservatoire have to be much more careful to the directions we point them in.

There seems to be such conflicting information and ideas floating about. I have been told twice by two top notch musicians that BB needs to get into the NCO as it will help his NYO application and he really needs to get into the NYO if he is going to stand a good chance career-wise. Then I've been told categorically that if he's not in a prestigious orchestra then he won't get into the EUYO - I doubt he'd ever get in anyway! I'm finding it all too much really as my nerves were rattled enough with the NCO audition. I never know what to believe and that leaves me stressed and confused and leads me straight back to the wobbles thread!

First, I'm sure he will get in and second, even if he didn't get in this time he most certainly will once he's been exposed to all the musical training he will get at Purcell. Plus he is still young so plenty of time to go down different paths if the music doesn't work out.

Please don't worry MNW!

Why does he need to get into NYO to stand a good chance career-wise? Purcell will do that, surely?!
Anyway, I've had plenty of pupils go into musical careers either through University or Conservatoire that have never been in NYO so I wouldn't worry

Strings are rather different, because orchestras always need so many of them. Woodwind is much tougher with only a very few places per orchestra. NYO has about 8 clarinettists, but it's rare to see even 4 in a typical professional orchestra; many have only 2 clarinettists in permanent positions, with perhaps a bass clarinet in addition. I imagine bassoon is similar. Maybe it isn't essential to be in NYO, but it certainly does no harm to anyone's career prospects!

MNW, don't worry at this stage, because if BB goes to Purcell, that in itself will be a great boost to his career prospects. And he's really very young still, so has loads of time to improve before he auditions for NYO.

The number of certain instruments required in an orchestra can certainly be a consideration, but reading a couple of the Conservatoire prospectus' the other day I noticed they specifically mention violin (and piano) as the instruments where places are most heavily fought for.

Well being a NitWIt, I have no idea why!

Which I assume is why your pupils get into musical careers from conservatoire - they've already fought off the competition, and are evidently at a high standard when they enter conservatoire. Not so long ago, conservatoires were taking fewer clarinettists than they had room for because not enough candidates were of the required calibre, so perhaps for woodwind a conservatoire place isn't as likely to lead to a musical playing career (there are often teaching jobs around).

True. I met a young flautist recently who said it's a real pig to get into NYO on the flute - and she's at Junior Academy. What I was meaning really was thinking of NYO before Conservatoire, and it not being crucial to getting into music college. Then after college, it's the training and standard you have achieved while at Conservatoire (plus the college on your CV) that will help you actually get the job you want.

I think NCO, NYO are only important if that's what you want. Different people will have different ideas of what makes a musician. Some will look for all the ensembles/orchestras where others will only be interested in the playing on the day.

I had a massive wobble recently and contacted the tutor of the course daughter wants to attend (they have met). I was told in no uncertain terms that in this case performance at audition is the most important thing. I'm trying to hang on to that being the case.......

Some instruments can't get in to NYO as there are simply no places for them. We know players who are considered very talented but they are brass banders. Some of the people daughter is in an ensemble with are excellent jazz musicians who mostly play be ear. We are delighted that she gets to play in such an environment and wonder at times why they gave her that chance (we are very grateful that they did) but it's not her area of strength. It would be difficult if not impossible for them to get in NYO. In fact one of the jazzers has the best trumpet sound I've heard form a young person.

In the past week we've had two very different reactions to the same piece. One that it was too loud (it's meant to be) and the other group loved it....... so much so they want to send a video to the person who commissioned the arrangement. Daughter agreed on the spot but I'm really unsure These are all musicians with Conservatoire training.

I've given up trying to work out what is right

I tell my pupils it is their mission to convince the examiner that their interpretation is the right one

Well you can always get them to try

I'm sure that you do think it's unfair but if you read my post again you will realise I wasn't referring to your area or your child. Nor MusicalNitWit's.

The BBC Young Musician of the Year 2010 competition featured 25 category finalists, 13 of whom had progressed through the NCO. And 86/156 of the 2010 NYO had been in the NCO (according to wikepedia), which means that 45% hadn't. So it therefore follows that a degree of musical excellence is achievable without the NCO.

The NYO has about 160 musicians aged 13-19, so not all are fighting for the conservatoire places at the same time - I think that it's safe to say that one would be able to get into a decent conservatoire without being in the NYO either!

I hope this helps to put your mind at rest!

And I know that at least 4 of the the wind section leaders who have left in the last couple of years have chosen not to go the conservatoire route...

Do you mean they are pursuing careers other than music?

To my knowledge at least two people in the same section have not been in NCO.

2 music at uni, 2 other subjects completely.

well, we did go to the audition and daughter enjoyed it very much. Auditioner was very welcoming, venue was okay, accompanist very good so all in all a very pleasant experience depsite the initial worries.

Oh, and best bit of all - lovely letter 2 days later saying she's got a place

Well done Mini Kixmusic, look forward to hearing how the course goes!

Congratulations to your daughter, KixMusic! Hope she really enjoys her time in NYWO.

Thank you BerkshireMum and MNW. I think what she is most looking forward to (other than the prom of course) is everyone thinking she is at least 15 (which she won't be) and treating her older

Well done MiniKix! Fantastic news!

How did I miss that???
Brilliant news, KixMusic. What a wonderful opportunity - well done her!

so do all the NCO mum's have results now? or is it still too early?

No results yet. I'm moving house this week though so I'm not at home but no one else I know has received them. Do you know anyone who has?

No, I just know that the NYO results are out so thought they would be about the same time.

Off topic - why did you have the thread about your flute playing son closed? There was some very useful advice for all parents in there.

Any day now...........

I don't think we're meant to speculate on the fora about why a thread has been closed or deleted - and all the advice is still there to be read if anyone wants to.

It's great that there's so much good advice available here - and I've always been grateful for it but I think it's important to remember that what a lot of parents want quite often is a supportive sounding board for their concerns rather than a prescription from an 'expert'.

All digits still firmly crossed for all of you waiting on the NCO.

I didn't get the thread closed down! Is this another case of reading between the lines? There is a reason why nothing can be found between the literal lines...

Not at all - don't overreact. I thought that only the thread starter could ask for it to be closed which is why I asked. I won't bother commenting at all in future. Godness, this forum has become so tetchy!



Well the only bit I could find in the forum rules related to the thread starter asking why their thread was closed (see below) so I thought it was okay to ask? (There's nothing about a community member asking the thread starter)

Moderation Explanations
Please do not start a new thread asking why your last thread was moved, deleted or closed. If you want to know why, contact a moderator, but please do not ask the community.

I'm getting pretty tired of all the negative questions or comments towards members and yet when a member tries to defend themselves they are being tetchy. That type of deflection doesn't wash.

Post deleted because the quotes went weird.

(Does anyone else find it sometimes quotes the wrong bit?)

No deflection here as none needed. I was just asking - you've anwsered.

Good luck to your son with his NCO results and to all other forumites waiting for NCO results.

Are we the first? Just got confirmation of a place by email!!!! Absolutely delighted. Good luck to everyone else.

Well done Claudia! Really pleased for you!

Thanks Nicki

Well done, fantastic news and well deserved!

Congratulations to Claudia - so pleased for her!!! I am out at the moment with no email access - will be driving home fast!!!

Congratulations, Claudia.

I've plenty more bottles on ice, people, so let's keep that good news coming.

Well done Claudia!

Thanks MNW, Cappricioso and TDM! And Andante!

So much nicer as she didn't get in on the first attempt.

Congratulations to Claudia, she deserved to get in