Full Version: How did you learn Jazz?
Hello, I'm currently learning classical piano (just taken grade 7), but I would like to start learning some Jazz piano. I've played rags and transcribed jazz pieces in the past. But I've only really messed around with jazz and don't fully have a command of all the chords and modes etc. There seems to be loads of classical teachers but can't find any jazz teachers in my area. So I have bought a few books and am slowly working through them. But they all seem to get complicated very quickly, and I find myself feeling a bit overwhelmed. So I was wondering how others got on with learning jazz, was it from a book (if so any recommendations?), a teacher, workshops etc. thanks.
QUOTE(Scratchet @ Jul 11 2011, 09:42 AM) 
Hello, I'm currently learning classical piano (just taken grade 7), but I would like to start learning some Jazz piano. I've played rags and transcribed jazz pieces in the past. But I've only really messed around with jazz and don't fully have a command of all the chords and modes etc. There seems to be loads of classical teachers but can't find any jazz teachers in my area. So I have bought a few books and am slowly working through them. But they all seem to get complicated very quickly, and I find myself feeling a bit overwhelmed. So I was wondering how others got on with learning jazz, was it from a book (if so any recommendations?), a teacher, workshops etc. thanks.
I've got a jazz piano teacher, but I'm lucky -- they can be hard to find!
I started out without a teacher, and used the ABRSM Jazz piano books, which took me up to about Grade 3, but then I stalled a bit. I would recommend the Tim Richards books -- start with his first book (I think it's called Improvising Blues) but you'll get a lot out of his jazz books too. They are very well thought out, and have you actually using jazz concepts immediately, rather than (as I ended up doing) learning them intellectually but being unable to apply them.
I also recommend Paul Abrahams' podcast (on itunes). He is my teacher, and I found him through the podcast, which is great. He has also just started some online video lessons - I'm sorry I don't have the link here at work, but you should be able to find it if you Google 'Paul Abrahams Learn Jazz Piano'.
Those will get you up and running. After that, you can supplement them with, for example, one of Mark Levine's books (The Jazz Piano Book, or The Jazz Theory Book) though they get complicated very quickly. Also try a book called Metaphors for Musicians -- I can't remember the name of the author, but it's a great book (also quite complicated though).
Hope that helps.
Good luck.
I really started to make progress with jazz when I started attending regular workshops - that's probably easier for a horn player than a pianist though, since a group can accommodate beginner horn players easily enough, but the pianist needs to be reasonably competent from the start or the rest of the group will stall.
You don't say where you are - I'm guessing not London / SE, because it's not too hard to find jazz tuition round here. If you give me a rough idea of area I might be able to point you towards someone.
You don't say where you are - I'm guessing not London / SE, because it's not too hard to find jazz tuition round here. If you give me a rough idea of area I might be able to point you towards someone.
thanks for the replies.
I'm in the portsmouth area.
Really glad you said "After that, you can supplement them with, for example, one of Mark Levine's books (The Jazz Piano Book, or The Jazz Theory Book) though they get complicated very quickly. " This was one of the books I found overwhelming. Seems good as a reference though.
I've also bought "jazz piano from scratch" published by abrsm, so will have a go at that instead.
I'm in the portsmouth area.
Really glad you said "After that, you can supplement them with, for example, one of Mark Levine's books (The Jazz Piano Book, or The Jazz Theory Book) though they get complicated very quickly. " This was one of the books I found overwhelming. Seems good as a reference though.
I've also bought "jazz piano from scratch" published by abrsm, so will have a go at that instead.
I don't know any jazz pianists in the Portsmouth area, I do know a couple of people who have started on a jazz course at Chichester college - that may be a route for looking for a tutor.
thanks for the ideas. I'll check them out.
Everyone seems to be talking about books.
Everything you need to know is out there in the form of recordings. To be a jazz musician, you have to be a jazz fan. Find a jazz piano compilation CD and discover a player that appeals to you. Immerse yourself in his/her playing style. Listen, copy, understand, develop. That's how the greats did it long before it was formulated and written in books.
Could someone learn to speak German simply from reading books? No. Jazz is an aural tradition. A language.
It's a neverending journey - enjoy the process!
Everything you need to know is out there in the form of recordings. To be a jazz musician, you have to be a jazz fan. Find a jazz piano compilation CD and discover a player that appeals to you. Immerse yourself in his/her playing style. Listen, copy, understand, develop. That's how the greats did it long before it was formulated and written in books.
Could someone learn to speak German simply from reading books? No. Jazz is an aural tradition. A language.
It's a neverending journey - enjoy the process!
so do you not study any theory through books then? have you learnt purely by playing from ear?
I agree that it's crucially important to listen, endlessly, to jazz if you want to play it. But the OP doesn't have a teacher, and books can therefore condense the wisdom of a teacher. In Jerry Coker's 'Patterns for Jazz', for example, Coker (a much respected jazz player and teacher) talks about how he was once laid up in hospital, so spent his time ordering the many transcriptions he had made over the years from jazz recordings, and being surprised by how often the same patterns cropped up among many of the great players. Those are the 'patterns for jazz' in his book, and they are a fantastic help to the budding jazzer. Coker shares his years of experience in that book, and there'd be no sense in not benefitting from it, surely.
I've moved from being someone who was taught classical music to someone who is kind of approaching a degree of competence in jazz. I have to admit that pretty much nothing has come from books (I have Mark Levine's book but I have rarely opened it). I listen a lot and I've been to lots of workshops / courses etc. I'm lucky in that the theory side just seems to make sense to me without working too hard at it. The feel is another matter, and I've only made progress with that by listening. Pulse / rhythm / time are also crucial - get those wrong and it's dead. I've had to work very hard on these, lots of metronome practice. Classical music is (in my experience) much more forgiving of a slightly elastic pulse than jazz is. A few years ago I was playing some classical sax ensemble stuff on a course with a friend of mine, who is generally absolutely spot on with time. We were both thrown by the fact that the classical stuff seemed to leave almost "breathing space" at the ends of phrases - that just doesn't happen in jazz.
isn't there a bit of a "catch 22" situation here? On the one hand, jazz is all about playing by ear and feeling the rhythm etc but on the other hand, you need some kind of technical understanding and application of theory so that you've got some material to work with.
Also, are there really that many of the greats who are self taught? I think it may be exaggerated. In fact I think you'll find a large amount started out classically trained.
Also, are there really that many of the greats who are self taught? I think it may be exaggerated. In fact I think you'll find a large amount started out classically trained.
QUOTE(Scratchet @ Jul 18 2011, 01:03 PM)
Also, are there really that many of the greats who are self taught? I think it may be exaggerated. In fact I think you'll find a large amount started out classically trained.
I doubt there were many of the greats who were taught "jazz", because there didn't used to be any formal jazz tuition / text books etc - that's a fairly recent thing. They may well have been taught their instrument, classical music theory etc but I think they learnt to play jazz by just doing it.
QUOTE(TSax @ Jul 18 2011, 01:30 PM)
QUOTE(Scratchet @ Jul 18 2011, 01:03 PM)
Also, are there really that many of the greats who are self taught? I think it may be exaggerated. In fact I think you'll find a large amount started out classically trained.
They may well have been taught their instrument, classical music theory etc but I think they learnt to play jazz by just doing it.
Many of them also learnt it by hanging around with other, more experienced players, and learning from them. So they were taught, and had the opportunity to ask questions and be shown tips and tricks maybe, but not in the formal context perhaps of weekly music lessons.
Hi. I'm learning jazz too (a beginner!!). I learn by listening to everything I can, plagiarising whatever I can, watching and listening on Youtube, and by being taught. I find the theory very demanding; but the whole process is, in my view, not as prescriptive as classical so much more satisfying.
Good luck!
Good luck!
I started learning alto sax in feb 2010, best decision i ever made started lessons to do abrsm exams but quickly realised exams are not for me and nor is classical. I decided i wanted to learn jazz/blues and luckily my teacher is heavily into jazz and plays in a band, i bought John O'Neils Jazz method for alto which is a great book and you learn at a steady pace.
As well as the book, my teacher also does a lot of impro with me, which has helped a great deal in understanding jazz. Also listening to jazz music does help as you subconciously pick up on licks and phrases also watching live performances is a big big help, i go to a jazz club each tuesday.
Love jazz love life
started lessons to do abrsm exams but quickly realised exams are not for me and nor is classical. I decided i wanted to learn jazz/blues and luckily my teacher is heavily into jazz and plays in a band, i bought John O'Neils Jazz method for alto which is a great book and you learn at a steady pace.As well as the book, my teacher also does a lot of impro with me, which has helped a great deal in understanding jazz. Also listening to jazz music does help as you subconciously pick up on licks and phrases also watching live performances is a big big help, i go to a jazz club each tuesday.
Love jazz love life
QUOTE(trimmy @ Jul 25 2011, 03:30 PM)
I started learning alto sax in feb 2010, best decision i ever made :D started lessons to do abrsm exams but quickly realised exams are not for me and nor is classical. I decided i wanted to learn jazz/blues and luckily my teacher is heavily into jazz and plays in a band, i bought John O'Neils Jazz method for alto which is a great book and you learn at a steady pace.
As well as the book, my teacher also does a lot of impro with me, which has helped a great deal in understanding jazz. Also listening to jazz music does help as you subconciously pick up on licks and phrases also watching live performances is a big big help, i go to a jazz club each tuesday.
Love jazz love life :D
I'm also finding my way as a new jazz player, although in my case a woodwind player. For years I've had it running through my head, but that was during a 45 year hiatus from playing clarinet. When I came back to clarinet 3 years back I tried out some of what I'd had running through my head and, to my surprise, they worked. It took a few months to regain proficiency and fluency, butas I improved so did the jazz. I find that a sound knowledge of scales, particularly minor scales, and chord structure are the best aids to jazz performance. When I hear a phrase I like I mentally play variations on it and develop it. The next time I pick up a horn it's already there in my head.
Welcome to the forum Tony. Nice to have another jazzer around. 
[/quote]
I'm also finding my way as a new jazz player, although in my case a woodwind player. For years I've had it running through my head, but that was during a 45 year hiatus from playing clarinet. When I came back to clarinet 3 years back I tried out some of what I'd had running through my head and, to my surprise, they worked. It took a few months to regain proficiency and fluency, butas I improved so did the jazz. I find that a sound knowledge of scales, particularly minor scales, and chord structure are the best aids to jazz performance. When I hear a phrase I like I mentally play variations on it and develop it. The next time I pick up a horn it's already there in my head.
[/quote]
I agree. If you can't hear it, you can't play it. That's why you have to be a jazz fan to play jazz
Nigel Hitchcock does all his practice mentally; just imagining playing on a weightless, perfectly balacned sax, then when he comes to play it's all there.
I don't think you can underestimate the importance of mental practice in any form of music.
I'm also finding my way as a new jazz player, although in my case a woodwind player. For years I've had it running through my head, but that was during a 45 year hiatus from playing clarinet. When I came back to clarinet 3 years back I tried out some of what I'd had running through my head and, to my surprise, they worked. It took a few months to regain proficiency and fluency, butas I improved so did the jazz. I find that a sound knowledge of scales, particularly minor scales, and chord structure are the best aids to jazz performance. When I hear a phrase I like I mentally play variations on it and develop it. The next time I pick up a horn it's already there in my head.
[/quote]
I agree. If you can't hear it, you can't play it. That's why you have to be a jazz fan to play jazz
Nigel Hitchcock does all his practice mentally; just imagining playing on a weightless, perfectly balacned sax, then when he comes to play it's all there.
I don't think you can underestimate the importance of mental practice in any form of music.
So do jazz players always know exactly how to play what's in their head straightaway? When I play something by ear, it can take me a few go's to find the right notes.
QUOTE(Tickled Ivories @ Aug 5 2011, 07:26 PM)
So do jazz players always know exactly how to play what's in their head straightaway? When I play something by ear, it can take me a few go's to find the right notes.
I'm sure some people can, but I can't. Then again what's in my head is more often a general soundscape than a truly defined picture and I can usually reproduce something similar to that. Sometimes when what I end up playing is different to what's in my head is when it ends up interesting - it sends me off in different and less obvious directions.
QUOTE(Tickled Ivories @ Aug 5 2011, 07:26 PM)
So do jazz players always know exactly how to play what's in their head straightaway? When I play something by ear, it can take me a few go's to find the right notes.
Yes, that's where the good ones are and the others strive to get - to be able to play exactly what they hear in their head. It is then that they transcend the instrument and the music feels to them like it is flowing directly from their mind into sound. It is about cultivating a complete knowledge of, and facility on, the instrument in order to play the ideas they think of in the moment.
QUOTE(Bobilleg74 @ Aug 5 2011, 10:30 PM)
QUOTE(Tickled Ivories @ Aug 5 2011, 07:26 PM)
So do jazz players always know exactly how to play what's in their head straightaway? When I play something by ear, it can take me a few go's to find the right notes.
Yes, that's where the good ones are and the others strive to get - to be able to play exactly what they hear in their head. It is then that they transcend the instrument and the music feels to them like it is flowing directly from their mind into sound. It is about cultivating a complete knowledge of, and facility on, the instrument in order to play the ideas they think of in the moment.
It's strange that no-one thinks its difficult for a singer to hear something in their head and automatically reproduce it, but it's considered really quite a skill for an instrumentalist. I think we're trying to get to the point where the instrument is an extension to our voice.
I was very lucky because there was an adult education class running near me for 3 years which I attended which put me on the right path, then a lot of hard work on my part to put it into practice - lots of modal scales practice, knowing my 7th arpegios inside out and upside-down! etc. Plus workshops when ever I could. Also I went onto HMV website and bought CDs of famous sax players and listened and tried out different licks and riffs just jamming along for hours with them (using the theory knowledge I got from the evening classes).
thanks for the replies interesting discussion. I've decided to enrol on a course/workshop at a local college. should be fun, Has anyone got any suggestions for some practice before the course starts in a month, so I don't make a complete tw@t of myself. PS I play piano. thanks
Practice your scales - Major, Dorian Minor, Mixolydian and Pentatonics.
And chord progressions, in all keys if you can (anticlockwise round the circle of 5ths), especially ii(minor)7-V7-Imaj7.
Have fun!
Have fun!
Cycle of 5ths, chordally and scaleically.
Try different patterns: 1235, 2153, 5321, 3521.
Try different patterns: 1235, 2153, 5321, 3521.
Currently working through grade 3 jazz piano with an interested and inspiring pupil. We are both learning, as my principal knowledge is in the clasical genre. A breath of fresh air for us both, each lesson bringing something new. I recommend this as a challenge for others - expands your knowledge and, aurally, lots of wonderful 'colours'. 
QUOTE(Scratchet @ Jul 11 2011, 09:42 AM)
I went to the very first ABRSM Jazz conference. I then took Grades 1-5 Jazz exams and loved preparing for them. I then went to the first Residential course at Benslow and had a fantastic time with jam sessions in the evening and I then went to the second Residential course.I also attended a course at Morley College. I listen a lot to all kinds of jazz pianists -my very favourite is Monty Alexander -he is amazing! I did have one private lesson some years ago but I have a natural ability for Jazz rhythm but would love to improve the improvisation side of it.
Good luck -it will be such fun for you!
Barbara
Hello, I'm currently learning classical piano (just taken grade 7), but I would like to start learning some Jazz piano. I've played rags and transcribed jazz pieces in the past. But I've only really messed around with jazz and don't fully have a command of all the chords and modes etc. There seems to be loads of classical teachers but can't find any jazz teachers in my area. So I have bought a few books and am slowly working through them. But they all seem to get complicated very quickly, and I find myself feeling a bit overwhelmed. So I was wondering how others got on with learning jazz, was it from a book (if so any recommendations?), a teacher, workshops etc. thanks.
I totally agree with what was said about listening to jazz. Unintentionally you will pick up rhythm patterns and this will all make it a lot easier to recognising them when you are actually playing them. Jazz fm is a new radio station branched off classicfm and has a large variety of jazz, instrumental and voice - really easy listening. I only got into jazz properly after my grade 8 when I could really appreciate the melodies behind the rhythms. As you are grade 7, you should be competent to read difficult jazzy rhythms so you can always pick up some pieces and try them out. But the crucial thing I would say is to feel the rhythms naturally, don't force them, or it will not sound relaxed. (this is where the listening part comes in - helps a great deal with your instinctiveness as well)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.